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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Let's put it this way- if you play CSM, your 'box of options' has been the same limited little box for like a decade and a half, it seems. Objectively inferior pool of options, performing the same as the loyalist variety, but you get less to choose from because your box of toys is outdated. But, you know, you can compensate by filling your team with 10 cultists. Have fun with that in a game where your campaign roster is only 20 models.

I'm hoping something Chaos comes along and makes the current CSM for KT Obsolete and replaces them.

Amen. The supposedly "special" things about CSM (ability to summon daemons, god-specific units, etc) are completely absent from KT. So your choice is "loyalist marines with Chaos paintjob" or "worse loyalist marines." Not sure how someone at GW thought that would be acceptable to anyone. Oh well.

Also I will PM.

 exliontamer wrote:
Yeah, I broadly agree with your points. I guess I am just still grumpy that there's no Blanchitsu/warband creation game out there with tons of options for individual model customization that allows for using most, if not all, the 40k factions...

There was: Shadow War: Armageddon.

And that game was horrendously bad.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

There was: Shadow War: Armageddon.

And that game was horrendously bad.

That's being polite. Let me elaborate on that for you.

Playing Shadow War was about as much fun as getting a colonoscopy with a GoPro strapped to a rusty pike. In terms of balance, some factions were 'okay', some were outright unstoppable, and others would only be less useful if their attacks were limited to throwing marshmallows and making fart noises. The rules layout was so unstructured and annoying to follow, that it was just one step away from being 'random words and numbers on a sheet of paper'.

For perspective: You can use Chaos Marines. Sounds badass, right? Yeah, they're gonna spend the entire game laying on their backs like a sleazy hoe because lasguns and autopistols knock them down. Until the end of the turn. Even if they don't actually wound them. Yeah, you read that correctly. An 8 foot tall killing machine gets his armor plinked by something that is relatively the size of a Tic-tac and falls down on his butt and stares up at the ceiling, re-evaluating his life choices.

However, the idea itself isn't bad at all- "Necromunda but with 40k stuff" is pretty appealing, and offers a bit more than Kill Team. So I'm hoping we'll get a better version and it will be Shadow War: Vigilus or something.

Kill Team is quite popular, and they're already committed to it.

Why do you think they'd ever spend any resources making the same but slightly different game in the same setting?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Kill Team is quite popular, and they're already committed to it.

Why do you think they'd ever spend any resources making the same but slightly different game in the same setting?

To ask why they'd spend resources 'making the same but slightly different game'... when Kill Team itself can be described as exactly that compared to 40k?

Also, if you think Necromunda is only 'slightly different' than Kill Team, you're sorely mistaken.

 exliontamer wrote:
I mean the biggest sin of Kill Team so far, IMO, is that the Inquisition is not a playable faction. Quite possibly the only 40k Faction (outside of Deathwatch) that was primed and ready-made for a game like Kill Team and they are conspicuously (almost trollingly) absent. I find that utterly bizarre.

Did you miss where they called out an inquisition expansion right at the start? The three expansions that were name dropped were rogue trader, commanders and inquisition.


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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I haven't bought tactical marines in years, but I can tell you that both Mark 4 and Mark 3 Marines come with HB.

The tactical marine box does not but that might be an explanation.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Have fun with that in a game where your campaign roster is only 20 models.

Rosters are for all game modes and have no size limit in campaigns. {12 models max before the first game, unlimited size after the first game)

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Have fun with that in a game where your campaign roster is only 20 models.

Rosters are for all game modes and have no size limit in campaigns. {12 models max before the first game, unlimited size after the first game)

I don't think you understand the gripe. Adeptus Doritos is complaining that CSM in Kill Team got the short end of the stick. The Chaos Space Marine data sheet is basically worse Space Marine (which isn't even the best datasheet for Adeptus Astartes). Even the thing that makes the Heretic Astartes Kill Team faction different from the Loyalists, the cultists, can be fairly tough going. Which from personal experience, Cultists only work in either minimal amounts (like 1 or 2) or pretty much your whole kill team which is limited to 20. Even at 20 cultists, many of the other factions can fairly easily delete 2-3 cultists every round with another 1-3 having flesh wounds making them as good as dead. Sure, cultists can dominate objectives for the first 1 to 2 rounds, but by round 3; they are usually gassed out as 4-6 cultists removed by then and nearly as many fleshed wounded. It isn't uncommon to be making (read: failing) Break tests at the end of Round 3 with an all cultists list.

Most CSM Kill Team players that I know don't even bother with the Heretic Astartes rules anymore instead going Deathwatch if they want to run all marines or Servants of the Abyss or Astra Militarum if they want cultists. I can't say I blame them, I don't think I will bother using my CSM Kill Team if I reasonably expect to play Deathwatch, Death Guard or Admech. I just get creamed too quickly for it be any kind of fun game. Instead, I will just play Grey Knights to at least give me a fighting chance.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Have fun with that in a game where your campaign roster is only 20 models.

Rosters are for all game modes and have no size limit in campaigns. {12 models max before the first game, unlimited size after the first game)

I don't think you understand the gripe. Adeptus Doritos is complaining that CSM in Kill Team got the short end of the stick. The Chaos Space Marine data sheet is basically worse Space Marine (which isn't even the best datasheet for Adeptus Astartes). Even the thing that makes the Heretic Astartes Kill Team faction different from the Loyalists, the cultists, can be fairly tough going. Which from personal experience, Cultists only work in either minimal amounts (like 1 or 2) or pretty much your whole kill team which is limited to 20. Even at 20 cultists, many of the other factions can fairly easily delete 2-3 cultists every round with another 1-3 having flesh wounds making them as good as dead. Sure, cultists can dominate objectives for the first 1 to 2 rounds, but by round 3; they are usually gassed out as 4-6 cultists removed by then and nearly as many fleshed wounded. It isn't uncommon to be making (read: failing) Break tests at the end of Round 3 with an all cultists list.

Most CSM Kill Team players that I know don't even bother with the Heretic Astartes rules anymore instead going Deathwatch if they want to run all marines or Servants of the Abyss or Astra Militarum if they want cultists. I can't say I blame them, I don't think I will bother using my CSM Kill Team if I reasonably expect to play Deathwatch, Death Guard or Admech. I just get creamed too quickly for it be any kind of fun game. Instead, I will just play Grey Knights to at least give me a fighting chance.

I am well aware of the problems with CSM but it's nothing to do with rosters.