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From my perspective the third party accessories is a beef I never got from GW. If I buy shoulder pads from chapter house and put them on a marine that GW made, GW literally lost nothing. I still bought a marine kit from them and then bought another bit that they do not and will not produce. I get them having a beef about whole models, but the level of petty over small bitz is silly

HoundsofDemos wrote:
From my perspective the third party accessories is a beef I never got from GW. If I buy shoulder pads from chapter house and put them on a marine that GW made, GW literally lost nothing. I still bought a marine kit from them and then bought another bit that they do not and will not produce. I get them having a beef about whole models, but the level of petty over small bitz is silly

Gw used to make bits like shoulder pads, same with forgeworld.

it doesn't matter for non Lore shoulder pads but GW does lose from some conversion kits and bits. (such as various power weapons and special weapons. i recall CH did a whole line of magnetizable combi weapons which were popular also the whole storm eagle conversion kit).

ultimately while it may have been pennies, from a lawyer perspective they have to defend their IP and stuff (as from what i remember about that whole thing you have to actively be using and defending it or otherwise lose it) and because of how horribly they failed and learned their IPs defense is hot garbage they have to make sure it is secure.

Yeah. GW made a choice. They chose wrong. No different than a Monsanto or a Microsoft. Don't be evil used to be Google's motto. This motto has since been dropped by Google... Guess GW followed suit.

 buddha wrote:
Fun law and business lesson incoming.

The Chapter House suit completely changed the way GW designs and builds models from the ground up. For non-americans the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. Digress for a second and realize the most powerful justices in our court system debated the IP law around space Marines shoulder pads. Really, it happened. The decision is publicly available for a nice boring read if anyone is interested.

Anyways, on topic, one of the results of CH suit was that the justices ruled it was not an IP violation to build a model that resembled something in the fiction. Everyone knows this part. But the other, an I think more important, part of their ruling was that compatible parts were NOT IP infringement.

What this means is that all those third party sellers of SM shoulder pads could proceed at will. This fundamentally changed the way GW models needed to be built on the sprues so they could prevent third party compatible bits. Look at sprues now a days and you'll notice they are molded so there are no easy modifications to parts. Take the new primaris or DG spures and they are intentionally cut so you can't just replace a head, a weapon, or a shoulder pads without ruining the model.

The consequences which OP is referencing is a "toyification" as, inherantly, they have to design their sprues to only have a specific, or a few specific, builds.

U wot mate?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors

Their shoulderpads, arms, heads and legs are laid out exactly like space marine parts always have been. everything on a primaris marine except for torso and legs is fully compatible with older space marine models in both scale and attachment points.

the_scotsman wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Fun law and business lesson incoming.

The Chapter House suit completely changed the way GW designs and builds models from the ground up. For non-americans the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. Digress for a second and realize the most powerful justices in our court system debated the IP law around space Marines shoulder pads. Really, it happened. The decision is publicly available for a nice boring read if anyone is interested.

Anyways, on topic, one of the results of CH suit was that the justices ruled it was not an IP violation to build a model that resembled something in the fiction. Everyone knows this part. But the other, an I think more important, part of their ruling was that compatible parts were NOT IP infringement.

What this means is that all those third party sellers of SM shoulder pads could proceed at will. This fundamentally changed the way GW models needed to be built on the sprues so they could prevent third party compatible bits. Look at sprues now a days and you'll notice they are molded so there are no easy modifications to parts. Take the new primaris or DG spures and they are intentionally cut so you can't just replace a head, a weapon, or a shoulder pads without ruining the model.

The consequences which OP is referencing is a "toyification" as, inherantly, they have to design their sprues to only have a specific, or a few specific, builds.

U wot mate?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors

Their shoulderpads, arms, heads and legs are laid out exactly like space marine parts always have been. everything on a primaris marine except for torso and legs is fully compatible with older space marine models in both scale and attachment points.

GW even have their own conversion kits for the parts that most 3rd party people make anyway too.

you could make an argument for some of the boxed games and smaller kits like necromunda and snap fit stuff though.

Primaris might have been a bad example, but the wider point stands.

I was very gung-ho on adding a Nurgle force to my roster, until I saw that the DG models (almost to a man) would require a level of talent far in excess of any I actually possess to be passable as an army. My Escher gang didn't reach the planned number of models because even at only ten-strong it was getting hard to make unique looking minis.

And while I am particularly bad at converting, granted, I feel like most people are closer to where I am than closer to, say, KrautScientist.

I feel your pain OP, Admech lost a ton of options that we had bits and models for in the transfer to 8th, alongside a ton of our cooler and more interesting rules. Tech priest Dominus, you know, the guys known for being the most technologically advanced hoarders in the Galaxy, have FOUR OPTIONS. On what planet does that make an iota of sense? They should have different invuln options, weapons, buff upgrades, abilities, etc, but instead we get one cookie cutter profile and that's it.

Onagers used to get self repair arms that come in the kit, can't use them anymore. Skitarii used to have their doctrinas army wide every turn, now it's just a strategem. Hell I'm amazed our alphas can still take rifles, although GW seemed to "fix" that with kill team.

Guard codex got off a bit better but it still hurt to lose so many options on our vets and command squads, where most of the character of our armies tended to come from.

I also hate how people say the chapterhouse lawsuit like it's chapterhouse's fault that we're in this situation. GW did it to themselves through dumb practices and assuming they could bully anyone who disagreed. They could've just licensed products as legal, or even set up where they got a percentage, or even just made the models in the codexes and updated kits before building new stuff we didn't need, but no, they decided that if they couldn't have their cake and eat it too we'd be the ones punished. GW had all these options, units, and characters that gave the game depth but didn't bother to make them. Other companies stepped in and made suitable alternatives that in many cases still required players to buy the base models. The few direct sales they lost to these companies was more than made up for by helping the hobby grow and encourage people to keep buying and playing. If a player buys custom shoulder pads, guess what, he still has to buy the base marines. And even if it's a character or model where the player doesn't need any GW parts, odds are the rest of their army is GW, and it will encourage them to stay invested in their army longer, growing the player base, retaining the ones you have, and increasing enjoyment.

These asinine policies are written by lawyers, not hobbyists, and have no business being in the game. Yes it sucks that certain options weren't directly sold by GW but that could be solved by actually updating kits we have like guardsmen instead of giving us new things we didn't need like tauroxes.

 Desubot wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
From my perspective the third party accessories is a beef I never got from GW. If I buy shoulder pads from chapter house and put them on a marine that GW made, GW literally lost nothing. I still bought a marine kit from them and then bought another bit that they do not and will not produce. I get them having a beef about whole models, but the level of petty over small bitz is silly

Gw used to make bits like shoulder pads, same with forgeworld.

To be fair, used to is the big keyword there. Chapterhouse didn't really become a thing until after GW shut down its Bitz division in IIRC 2007, and most (barring stuff like Red Scorpions and the like) of the FW stuff didn't start to appear until several years after the Bitz closure, while those old shoulderpad Bitz from GW were made available only haphazardly.

I don't think anyone here has alleged that CH were at fault.

You also can't ignore that GW is ultimately in the business of returning shareholder value. All incorporated entities are.

It would be super if they could produce a fun, tight game with awesome minis and practically give them away. At least, it would be for the three or four weeks it would take for them to go bust and disappear.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I don't think anyone here has alleged that CH were at fault.

I take it you missed our resident porky feline insect's posts then?

As an avid Ork fan, but not necessarily a player, I mean I collect Orks, by the thousand, but don't play them, and have not played them in a long time, I have an opinion, probably not right and probably already covered by someone else, but I like orks so zog reading everyone rant about how their Imperial faction has also felt the pinch, but here goes......

GW don't want you to be creative, they want you to buy their kits, and their kits only. The Orks where created in a time of wonder when the developers liked creativity, indeed regularly encouraged scratch building, but now they are a liability. I honestly believe they would drop them if they could. Indeed I have felt a leaning toward the good space soldier earthling fighting the bad space soldier earthling thing coming on for a few years now. 30k is a prime example as is Titanicus, No xenos here!!

But you see Orks are made for creative people to express themselves exactly as you have said in the OP. And they can't be bothered to try and cater to that sort of mayhem. For me the biggest deathnell of doom was the ork trukk model way back when. It is a brilliant kit, I love it, but according to them every single ork trukk looks the same, which is obviously a ludicrous idea. No two should look the same let alone a horde of the exact same bloody 6 wheeler running about the galaxy.

However I would point out, as I have elsewhere, the rules are only guidelines and only apply in GW stores or tourney situations. What you do in your own man cave or round your mates on a Friday night is completely up to you, so build any model you like, and if your mate wont allow it then maybe you need to bang him over the head, preferably with a nice lead shokk attack gun! The rules for most things are out there, or can be adjusted to suit.

And I absolutely love GW btw, I genuinely thank them from the bottom of my heart for the decades of joy I have had from them. Remember I don't play the game!

Me I am going to keep making contraptions, and silly conversions and fluffy nonsense, and one day I will find some mad bugger who will give me game just to see if that pulsa rokkit willl land on my own troops or his.

I love converting and kit bashing. It's my favorite part if the hobby, creating a one of a kind model or character and getting it painted up. But I dont mind the new approach. Personally, I'm in a mindset that I only want to take Codex options, but for now any legacy model is still legal with the Index.

I have to say, out of my 3 existing armies, I have the most in Orks. But I havent been interested in playing the new Orks for some reason. I actually spammed lootaz for the last 2 editions when they were garbage! They've taken a shelf yet again.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I also hate how people say the chapterhouse lawsuit like it's chapterhouse's fault that we're in this situation. GW did it to themselves through dumb practices and assuming they could bully anyone who disagreed. They could've just licensed products as legal, or even set up where they got a percentage, or even just made the models in the codexes and updated kits before building new stuff we didn't need, but no, they decided that if they couldn't have their cake and eat it too we'd be the ones punished. GW had all these options, units, and characters that gave the game depth but didn't bother to make them. Other companies stepped in and made suitable alternatives that in many cases still required players to buy the base models. The few direct sales they lost to these companies was more than made up for by helping the hobby grow and encourage people to keep buying and playing. If a player buys custom shoulder pads, guess what, he still has to buy the base marines. And even if it's a character or model where the player doesn't need any GW parts, odds are the rest of their army is GW, and it will encourage them to stay invested in their army longer, growing the player base, retaining the ones you have, and increasing enjoyment.

These asinine policies are written by lawyers, not hobbyists, and have no business being in the game. Yes it sucks that certain options weren't directly sold by GW but that could be solved by actually updating kits we have like guardsmen instead of giving us new things we didn't need like tauroxes.

So much this.

This is a major problem that has been happening all over the board. Its stupid. GW has completley made the game "non-friendly" to creativity

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Primaris might have been a bad example, but the wider point stands.

I was very gung-ho on adding a Nurgle force to my roster, until I saw that the DG models (almost to a man) would require a level of talent far in excess of any I actually possess to be passable as an army. My Escher gang didn't reach the planned number of models because even at only ten-strong it was getting hard to make unique looking minis.

And while I am particularly bad at converting, granted, I feel like most people are closer to where I am than closer to, say, KrautScientist.

Just how unique-looking do you expect a horde of people wearing the same armor and using the same guns to be?

Did you ever look at an actual soldier? you can't really tell two people apart, and its intentional.

123ply wrote:
This is a major problem that has been happening all over the board. Its stupid. GW has completley made the game "non-friendly" to creativity

Didn’t you get the memo? “Todays gamers are mentally challenged and get frustrated with too many options” -GW

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Primaris might have been a bad example, but the wider point stands.

I was very gung-ho on adding a Nurgle force to my roster, until I saw that the DG models (almost to a man) would require a level of talent far in excess of any I actually possess to be passable as an army. My Escher gang didn't reach the planned number of models because even at only ten-strong it was getting hard to make unique looking minis.

And while I am particularly bad at converting, granted, I feel like most people are closer to where I am than closer to, say, KrautScientist.

Just how unique-looking do you expect a horde of people wearing the same armor and using the same guns to be?

Did you ever look at an actual soldier? you can't really tell two people apart, and its intentional.

One I'm not trying to replicate real life armies, if I was I'd play a historical like bolt action. Compare the level of bitz and variety between regular marines and the new kits they produced now. Hell back to Orks, look at the sheer range of cross compatibility between the different kits and the ability to pull bitz from fantasy orks.

Or perhaps my favorite, compare the space marine commander kit in options and potential customization to the under borderdom and mono pose nature of the current plastic clam packs. When medal models were easier to put your own spin on things, something is trending in the wrong direction.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
When metal models were easier to put your own spin on things, something is trending in the wrong direction.

Exalting this.

40k is currently heading towards level of undress-me-PVC-figurines, and it's pissing off more people than its pleasing.

40K player base growth is largely reliant on word of mouth, not their brick and mortar. GW has to realize this sooner than later.

What annoys me is when you're listening to GW live streams or podcasts and they refer to converting all the time - clearly they didn't get the company memo either

I don't think the lack of options is because of Chapterhouse, or modeling. I think that GW has realized that they really, really suck at balancing points, and they are sick of all the criticism they get when they get it wrong.

If a tankbusta is 5 points, with a 12 point rocket, but somehow much better than an ork boy with the same rocket, yet far cheaper, you really start to get the sense that GW just can't does not have the mental cajones make points happen.

It's not hard, of course. Make regular boyz 7, kommandos and burna boyz 8, stormboyz 9, and tankbustas 10, with weapons at 7 for rokkits and 4 for burnas, and allow many combinations of the above. Provide similar options for all the vehicles.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy for you and me, but GW simply cannot do this. It is too hard for them and they know it.

Because Ork Boyz are troops and have better melee potential (via the Green Tide special rule). Granted Tankbustas have their re-roll rule, so I guess that balances out. GW being GW.

I have a theory that this IS, sort of, because of the "No Models, No Rules" policy, but it's NOT because the buggies specifically all need to be perfectly aligned with their models.

Rather, the problem came from the fact that Games Workshop cut a *ton* of units from the codex and didn't want the options to obviously shrink, so they had to stretch everything as far as possible.

We lost a full *Eight* dataslates from Index to Codex, not including all the weapon choices that got dropped. If all we got back was one HQ choice and one Fast Attack, the Codex would seem pretty barren. Add in five Fast Attack choices instead, though? Suddenly, it doesn't seem nearly as empty.

I'm not saying this is the only reason, but it certainly didn't help when GW was deciding how to split up the dataslates.

 DaRealJDB wrote:
A miniature with no assembly options can be a beautiful thing.

Moving forward:
- Keep making the models I want to make.

Kingdom Death : Monster, utilizing the sculpting potential of a monopose model to capture the weight, motion and proper anatomy of a specific pose is what brought me back into the model-building hobby. I find that I prefer mono-pose models when they are sculpted well, because they can show things that are all but impossible with multi-pose mix-and-match kits. From a pure aesthetics standpoint, I really love my Kingdom Death models.

As a converter of Imperial Armour, I get that. Make the models you want, and play them "count as". If your opponent doesn't like it, then find another opponent.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Primaris might have been a bad example, but the wider point stands.

I was very gung-ho on adding a Nurgle force to my roster, until I saw that the DG models (almost to a man) would require a level of talent far in excess of any I actually possess to be passable as an army. My Escher gang didn't reach the planned number of models because even at only ten-strong it was getting hard to make unique looking minis.

And while I am particularly bad at converting, granted, I feel like most people are closer to where I am than closer to, say, KrautScientist.

Just how unique-looking do you expect a horde of people wearing the same armor and using the same guns to be?

Did you ever look at an actual soldier? you can't really tell two people apart, and its intentional.

The ability to pose models a little bit differently even when they have the same gun, gear, etc helps a lot as it makes it less identical. Put 30 shoota boyz into a group and you will see that each boy is roughly unique as they have various combos of guns, arms, heads, pants, chest, and other bits all glued together slightly differently. Makes it so those 30 shoota boyz look different at a casual glance unlike the now more mono pose models which makes it feel like you have 6 clones of the same 5 models. Its not about making each model a special snowflake but to have that subtle variety which makes them feel more "alive" and less like carbon copies of each other.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Blame the Chapter House Lawsuits. It's why No Model, No Rules exists. Everything needs to be expressly unique and copywritable, preferably with Adjective VerbNoun names.

GW have also shifted their focus from adults with disposable income to kids with their parents income.

This is true but while other factions lost just a few units and a few loadout combinations, the transition between the orks index to the codex was extremely rough. Orks lost tons of options.

With my drukhari I just want to take a blaster for the archon as index options, with SW it's just the WG on bikes that appeal me and are index only. But with orks?

Warboss on bike
Big mek on bike with KFF
Big mek on foot with KFF (There was an original model with that loadout)
Painboy with killsaw (There was an original model with that loadout)
Mek with KMB or rokkit launcha
Killa Kans with KMB
Deffkoptas with KMB or saw
Kommandos with special weapons (there were original kommandos with big shootas and burnas) and their nobz forced to be equipped with just slugga and choppa or pk
Trukks and BWs with rokkits

Plus other options that were popular in older editions like big gunz, buggies/wartrakks (at least those ones were replaced with something new) the warboss in megarmor or the painboy on bike but these entries I listed above are all that I still use.

It's hard to describe how I feel about the whole debacle. On one hand I'm very happy that I don't have to go to my bitz box or a 3rd party vendor every time I "need" a model (or 10 models) of whatever is the new hotness in the meta and sometimes spend ridiculous amounts of time to build something that doesn't come with the stock model. I've been in the hobby for over 20 years and I found that somewhat of a drag. Think about someone just starting out and they start collecting and the first thing they hear is "yeah you should really run Nobz with triple Killsawz but the box only comes with one so you'll have to sculpt them from green stuff, but it's really easy!" It is a daunting prospect, and I understand this reasoning. I kinda understand the convenience of getting what it says on the tin, no need for elaborate conversions.

Also I feel that despite the lack of options (or poses) GW produces just absolutely sublime models these days. Some if not most of the poses could be difficult to achieve with interchangeable weapons. It sucks from a gaming POV and also I feel the pain of running clones, but when you look at a single model in a vacuum they look really really good.

Now with that said, with 20 years in the Hobby (only a recent Ork player so no extravagant conversions under my belt) as a SW player I've done my fair share of customizing the loadouts for my units and characters and seeing them go the way of the dodo is a real bummer. What also kinda irks me badly is that GW used to produce some models which were still good looking, but for some reason has discontinued them and with one fell swoop just eliminated the use of said models in the codex. E.g. Big Mek with KFF. Sure some of them still exist in the Index but many events have started to ban Index-only options and it's only a matter of time before they're officially banned from matched play.

TL;DR There's a lot of lost hobby potential and a loss of flavor and unique character in minis without options, however we are getting some great looking models as a trade off.

 Weazel wrote:
It's hard to describe how I feel about the whole debacle. On one hand I'm very happy that I don't have to go to my bitz box or a 3rd party vendor every time I "need" a model (or 10 models) of whatever is the new hotness in the meta and sometimes spend ridiculous amounts of time to build something that doesn't come with the stock model. I've been in the hobby for over 20 years and I found that somewhat of a drag. Think about someone just starting out and they start collecting and the first thing they hear is "yeah you should really run Nobz with triple Killsawz but the box only comes with one so you'll have to sculpt them from green stuff, but it's really easy!" It is a daunting prospect, and I understand this reasoning. I kinda understand the convenience of getting what it says on the tin, no need for elaborate conversions.

Those converting possibilities are the exact reason why I picked up orks during 3rd edition. IMHO the best part of the hobby is to assemble the models, not painting or even playing. On the other hand I always magnetize models that can have multiple loadout so even if I lack the proper bitz I can add it later. WYSIWYG is also not a rule anymore so it's perfectly fine to play something even without the specific bitz you wanted. Chasing the new hotness is always bad, in fact I think that's what is killing the hobby.

 Weazel wrote:

Also I feel that despite the lack of options (or poses) GW produces just absolutely sublime models these days. Some if not most of the poses could be difficult to achieve with interchangeable weapons. It sucks from a gaming POV and also I feel the pain of running clones, but when you look at a single model in a vacuum they look really really good.

I can't stand having two identical ork models, no matter how wonderful they are. I have 150 boyz all different, many are from AOBR or with fantasy bitz.

The new buggies are not that good to me, but they're too monopose. If I want 2-3 scrapjets I must scratch build 1-2 as it's very hard to convert them. They're too detailed. Trukks and BWs are awesome kits because they're very easy to make them different just with minor conversions.

123ply wrote:
This is a major problem that has been happening all over the board. Its stupid. GW has completley made the game "non-friendly" to creativity

It's the exact opposite. By removing rules bloat and having fewer options you get more room for creativity in conversions because you can care much less about WYSIWYG. Think it would look cool to have the driver of that ork vehicle firing a machine gun out the window? Great, model it, nobody is going to get confused and think it's a weapon upgrade because no such rules exist. While it's tempting to only consider the "no model, no rules" problem I find that most people fall into the trap of assuming that anything that doesn't have special snowflake rules can't exist as a model.

I think in a game that's over 30 years old having underwent at least 8 iterations by a company that went from being three guys building chess sets to an LSE listed company with a turnover of 150 million pounds, it stands to reason that the product and the philosophies behind its development will have changed dramatically. And it stands to reason that many of the people who adopted earlier versions of the game will eventually meet a set of changes that just push them away from what they loved about it.

I know it can be hard to let go of something that one loved so passionately once upon a time, but at some point, one just has to admit to oneself that this is no longer the game they love, and should either stick with an earlier version, get involved in a homemade version or just quit altogether.

If you really don't like something and it genuinely brings you know joy, then for the love of God, please don't keep spending money on it.

I can see the OP has a point. From multi-pose to mono-pose is a big turn off for people who want variety or like to personalise their models.

Regarding rules, my Orks are RT era +, and I have had to get creative with ‘counts as’ to play. For instance, my Snikrot is a Genestealer in my GS Hybrid mob. (Yes, even in competitions)

As for the new buggy incarnations, they fit none of my buggy models - so ‘hello’ Gun Trukks. I will be addding an old Squig Catapult to a Trukk in portee fashion, and am building a Franken-trukk from buggy/trukk/spare parts to mount a variety of heavy weapons.

Experience has shown the rules change over time, you just have to hammer them into the shape you want.