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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

Why?

And do you really find the harm comparable at all?

For me, the harm is equal to giving someone a burger spiked with laxatives.

Same, it would mess me up good for a day.

Pink Horror wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

Why?

And do you really find the harm comparable at all?

For me, the harm is equal to giving someone a burger spiked with laxatives.

Good point.

However, I guess I was dancing around the real point that outside of fast food corporations using cheaper alternatives to meat, vegetarians slipping carnivores the fake beef is pretty much unheard of, whereas the opposite is a common phenomenon. Depending on the victim's religion, the harm (should they find out) is much worse psychologically than laxatives.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

LOL okay. I am sure that happens all the time. Yep.

Again. Hate-boners.

Well about the same as somebody putting real meat to your sandwich.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Some people seem to have an unnatural hate-boner for vegetarians and I wouldn't be surprised to read a headline that some dumb worker tried to bamboozle a customer

Its because most vegetarians and vegans are EXTREMELY obnoxious about it. Either they ramble on about how its "sooo much healthier...", get preachy about animal rights/cruelty, and/or show disdain for anybody who doesn't also follow their vegetarian/vegan ways.

Its not an unnatural hate-boner, its a very well earned one.

The only person more obnoxious is someone who is gluten free(by choice).

My wife and mother-in-law aren't obnoxious.

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

LOL okay. I am sure that happens all the time. Yep.

Again. Hate-boners.

Well about the same as somebody putting real meat to your sandwich.

Except I have had this happen? Did I dream those instances where, as I said before, both strangers and friends and family have tried to sneak various types of meats into my meals, with the intent to convince me I am wrong about my preference not to eat meat?

I love that the hypothetical Luciferian is suggesting is given more consideration than actual events that have happened to me (and other vegetarians/vegans I've spoken with).

 Grey Templar wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Some people seem to have an unnatural hate-boner for vegetarians and I wouldn't be surprised to read a headline that some dumb worker tried to bamboozle a customer

Its because most vegetarians and vegans are EXTREMELY obnoxious about it. Either they ramble on about how its "sooo much healthier...", get preachy about animal rights/cruelty, and/or show disdain for anybody who doesn't also follow their vegetarian/vegan ways.

Its not an unnatural hate-boner, its a very well earned one.

The only person more obnoxious is someone who is gluten free(by choice).

I find meat eaters to be pretty obnoxious. Especially in threads about vegetarianism and veganism where they have to go on and on about how much they love meat.

But if I understand your argument correctly, because some part of a population acts badly then the ENTIRE population is bad? Good logic there, buddy.

The reactions in this thread prove my point.

Neither group is innately obnoxious, but by gods you can guarantee any thread about a vegan or vegetarian product to bring out the worst of both.

At least this isn't the Veganuary car crash, yet.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


But if I understand your argument correctly, because some part of a population acts badly then the ENTIRE population is bad? Good logic there, buddy.

Is that not the same logic you're applying in this thread? You're effectively saying that there's something inherent within meat eaters that makes them more likely to deceive a vegetarian than vice versa. Regardless of what's happened to you personally, that simply doesn't make sense on a larger scale.

My problem with people trying to stop Beef/Pork/Chicken farming is that they are also unknowingly trying to bring about the extinction of an animal species.

These animals are domesticated and raised for the sole purpose of feeding humanity.

If you stop using them to feed humanity, guess what, we no longer need them around.

How long do you think wild cows are gonna last in the future where we no longer consume beef? Other than possibly as eccentric pets or in a zoo, these consumer animals are going to die out.

Nobody is gonna feed or pasture a herd of cows for fun.



Pigs will last a while im sure, as wild boars have been around forever (mostly because they breed like rats).

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

LOL okay. I am sure that happens all the time. Yep.

Again. Hate-boners.

Well about the same as somebody putting real meat to your sandwich.

Except I have had this happen? Did I dream those instances where, as I said before, both strangers and friends and family have tried to sneak various types of meats into my meals, with the intent to convince me I am wrong about my preference not to eat meat?

I love that the hypothetical Luciferian is suggesting is given more consideration than actual events that have happened to me (and other vegetarians/vegans I've spoken with).

Sure. And reverse also happens. I love how people go all "my side is holier than your side" when neither is.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My problem with people trying to stop Beef/Pork/Chicken farming is that they are also unknowingly trying to bring about the extinction of an animal species.

These animals are domesticated and raised for the sole purpose of feeding humanity.

If you stop using them to feed humanity, guess what, we no longer need them around.

How long do you think wild cows are gonna last in the future where we no longer consume beef? Other than possibly as eccentric pets or in a zoo, these consumer animals are going to die out.

Nobody is gonna feed or pasture a herd of cows for fun.



Pigs will last a while im sure, as wild boars have been around forever (mostly because they breed like rats).

You are 100% correct.

There are more trees in north America today than there was 250 years ago. How? The same reason you point out - Trees serve a purpose for human needs, so businesses grow more of them in planning for their future profits.

I love life. I want the earth to have billions more people and billions and billions more livestock. The only way to achieve this is to keep and grow animals which serve our needs.

---------

What is the philosophical ideal behind this burger? Kill billions and billions of animals ( and eventually humanity ) by making them useless and extinct. Ironic, right?

 BuFFo wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My problem with people trying to stop Beef/Pork/Chicken farming is that they are also unknowingly trying to bring about the extinction of an animal species.

These animals are domesticated and raised for the sole purpose of feeding humanity.

If you stop using them to feed humanity, guess what, we no longer need them around.

How long do you think wild cows are gonna last in the future where we no longer consume beef? Other than possibly as eccentric pets or in a zoo, these consumer animals are going to die out.

Nobody is gonna feed or pasture a herd of cows for fun.



Pigs will last a while im sure, as wild boars have been around forever (mostly because they breed like rats).

You are 100% correct.

There are more trees in north America today than there was 250 years ago. How? The same reason you point out - Trees serve a purpose for human needs, so businesses grow more of them in planning for their future profits.

I love life. I want the earth to have billions more people and billions and billions more livestock. The only way to achieve this is to keep and grow animals which server our needs.

---------

What is the philosophical ideal behind this burger? Kill billions and billions of animals ( and eventually humanity ) by making them useless and extinct. Ironic, right?

I honestly can't tell if you are being sarcastic but I am going to assume not.

Someone already tried to make this odd argument in the last thread so I feel a bit daft repeating myself but here we go... These animals are never going extinct, period. People will always breed cattle and chickens if not for their meat but for eggs, milk, cheese etc. People will still eat meat though it would be nice if we could cut down that consumption by a significant portion. Will that mean the population of these animals drop, yes. However we have 19 billion chickens and 1.5 billion cows, a good chunk of which are not exactly living in the best conditions. No one is advocating for the killing of all these animals, just that we stop breeding so many of them

In the hypothetical far, far future when not a single person eats any meat or dairy these animals might be relegated to zoos/farm parks along with the many thousands of other species on this planet that are of no immediate use to us but I don't see that day ever coming, I mean have you ever tried vegan egg substitute? Chickens are here to stay...

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My problem with people trying to stop Beef/Pork/Chicken farming is that they are also unknowingly trying to bring about the extinction of an animal species.

These animals are domesticated and raised for the sole purpose of feeding humanity.

If you stop using them to feed humanity, guess what, we no longer need them around.

How long do you think wild cows are gonna last in the future where we no longer consume beef? Other than possibly as eccentric pets or in a zoo, these consumer animals are going to die out.

Nobody is gonna feed or pasture a herd of cows for fun.



Pigs will last a while im sure, as wild boars have been around forever (mostly because they breed like rats).

We actually have some historical precedent for this sort of action.

In the 19th century, there were 17,000 types of apples routinely grown in America. Right now, there's under 200, and only 8 are widely farmed.

What caused the decline? Well, many of those apples did not transport well, so as mass-marketing became a thing those trees were removed in favor of the ones that did travel well. Many more were too tart to eat, and were used to make hard cider. When prohibition hit, most of those were removed as well - and some prohibition agents actually went out and tore them down!

Once an agricultural product becomes unprofitable, it stops being farmed. Farmers generally can't afford to be sentimental about such things... even here in America. Perhaps ESPECIALLY here in America, where profit margins trump all other concerns.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So this artificial hamburger thing not aimed at vegetarians, tt's aimed at meat eaters, so they can be satisfied by a meat-like food which nonetheless is not made of meat.

But why would I want one?

The reasons have been explored above.

You are only one person and your individual preferences may be different, of course.

The Beyond Burger is better.

Nah, he's not alone. I'm with HBMC on this one.

 Desubot wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I would be more concerned about a vegetarian slipping people fake burgers for their own moral good than vice versa, to be honest.

Why?

And do you really find the harm comparable at all?

It's like you saying you're more worried of Muslims sneaking halal meat instead of pork to their customers than of non-Muslims sneaking pork into food for Muslims. Even if it happens more, which I do not grant, the harm is not equal.

Supposedly sneaking pork, so long as it was unknown and unwanted doesn't go against their religion, they remain sinless.

at least according to some video about weird bullets (pork blood covered bullets)

if true then its about the same harm.

To expand just a hair, Muslims can knowingly eat pork and remain sinless if there is no other option, ie the alternative was to starve.

It's not some kind of magical talisman as appears to be commonly believed.

So far as vegetarian burgers, I don't think I can do it.

The US military has several vegetarian MREs. To their credit, the veggie burger doesn't taste that much different from the beef patty. This is also the shelf stable processed stuff, so that may be a testament.


Ultimately, I respect a vegan/vegetarian's choice to not eat meat. All I ask is that they respect my choice to not eat fake meat.

I'd be happy to give one a go, and all these sorts of articles claim that (UK) supermarkets are signing up to stock them, but I've never seen them on shelves (one of these products was supposed to be stocked next to the actual beef burgers but a year later is still conspicuous by its absence).

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Here are the ingredients of Impossible Burger, as lited on their web site.

Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (Soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Soy Protein Isolate, Vitamin E, Vitamin C, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12.

Looks like most of the ingredients for dog food.
on the other hand, I have eaten burgers that were mostly tofu. They were surprisingly good.

I've eaten a lot of veggie burgers that tasted very nice - ones based on pulses, on tofu, on quorn. However, they were veggie, not vegan, and they tasted nice, they did not taste or otherwise replicate the experience of meat.

I have to say as well, I find it endlessly hilarious that we're once again seeing a replication of the vaping issue, where companies will form pseudo-alliances with groups who should be firmly opposing them to take on a new technology, the former because they need time to adjust their business model to the new reality, and the latter because neopuritan sentiment suffuses every "worthy cause" these days and for some it's no longer enough that you stop doing the thing they disagree with, you have to don your sackcloth and ashes and prove to them you've truly repented. We now have the laughable situation that the two chief opponents of synthetic meats and meat substitutes are the traditional meat industry, and the neopuritan wing of veganism who insist that yeah, OK, it might not be meat, but it's not "real food" and it's not organic and blah blah.

The health argument is a bit entertaining as well. Like, if you're eating burgers on a regular enough basis that a few extra percent of salt and saturated fats in each would cumulatively become a health concern, you have bigger problems.

Those are excellent strawmen and fabrications.

We done.

I'll hold off on stuff like this. They are rapidly developing technology to clone meat in labs so the use of cattle will no longer be necessary. Until then, McDonalds will do!

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Those are excellent strawmen and fabrications.

We done.

Thanks for contributing.

When they finally sell cloned chicken meat, am I the only one who wants to call them "Chicken Tethers"?