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GW's problem is that the 3.5 dex was awesome, it was damn near perfect in representing what chaos players wanted - but it also had a couple of stand-out builds that were ridiculously overpowered (Iron warriors get 4 HS slots? No big deal now, but in 3rd/4th that extra slot had a massive impact, and all you had to exchange was one of Chaos' traditionally underutilised FA slots).

This led to the impression that the codex as a whole was an overpowered mess, and GW have been overcompensating ever since, scared to introduce some of the variety and customisation from back then for fear of overstepping the mark, so we get "Bland spiky Space Marines" all the way. You can see this clearly in the heldrake - comes out, seems awesome, then GW introduce the firing arc nerf and now we're stuck with one of the worst flyers out there

Everything since has been overcompensating the other way, GW have been so scared of a backlash like they had with that codex that they've made Chaos into a bland pointless waste. The only codex that has even come close to being a satisfying representation of the Traitor legions was...Codex:Traitor Legions, and that couldn't be allowed to last more than a few months before GW tore the galaxy in half to get rid of it.

I've given up hope of Chaos, or Death Guard specifically (Who appear to have forgotten how to use the Bolt Pistols Mortarion explicitly trained them all to use, and have been trapped in a transporter accident with Skaven to the point where they sprout bells from every orifice and put way more emphasis on their poisoned wind globes...I mean Blight Grenades, than ever before), ever again becoming something I'm happy with, Vigilus might provide them with some extra options but the blandification of Chaos continues unabated.

The 3.5 dex had some strong points, no doubt, but I think there is also selective memory at play here. There is a few points players love to forget when reminiscenting the 3.5 dex:

Broken Builds on both Ends
The 3.5 dex wasn't fun for every chaos player. While Iron Warriors enjoyed peek of popularity thanks to very powerful rules, the Thousand Sons for instance had barely any competitive build. Also a multitude of units didn't work at all regardless of allegiance. Internal balance of that codex was difficult to achieve, rendering all the vast options just an illusion for anything but narrative builds.

Cult Troops have Evolved
What makes the 3.5 dex popular with cult legion players is that you could slap a mark on almost every unit and call it a World Eater, Death Guard, and so on. This was easy at that time because there was only a single bonus associated with a mark (+1 A for Khorne for instance) so a Khorne biker didn't look out of place next to a Berserker because they had the identical bonuses. Cult troops have changed since, and it is unlikely for them to go back.

GW stance on Conversions has changed
A topic discussed elsewhere in length; GWs stance on models without rules has drastically changed since dex 3.5. Where it was possible to field Sonic Terminators, Sonic Predators an the like using some nicely converted models, now you will only get rules for models GW actually sells. While some of the previously converted units might make an official return in a legion codex; it is unlikely that we will ever get the big chaos codex that covers all the options.

TL;DR
All in all the 3.5 was good, but not as great as some people make it out to be. And it is unlikely to come back, since 40K and GW's design philosophy has changed since.

3.5 was amazing, but I've given up hope of GW ever matching that accomplishment. I dearly miss the granularity offered by the daemonic upgrade system. So much customisation, so much character.

 Darkseid wrote:
Broken Builds on both Ends
The 3.5 dex wasn't fun for every chaos player. While Iron Warriors enjoyed peek of popularity thanks to very powerful rules, the Thousand Sons for instance had barely any competitive build. Also a multitude of units didn't work at all regardless of allegiance. Internal balance of that codex was difficult to achieve, rendering all the vast options just an illusion for anything but narrative builds.

I would like to dispute the point about Thousand Sons. They were quite effective as a force; ultimately, an army that has two wounds has plenty going for it.

Charax wrote:
... and GW have been overcompensating ever since...

That's actually an extremely good point, and mostly because it doesn't just apply to Chaos. GW is very bad at the whole perception vs reality thing. There have been elements of their game that have been over powered, but only over powered in one edition, yet they keep "balancing" things in later editions because once upon a time it was powerful.

Charax wrote:
The only codex that has even come close to being a satisfying representation of the Traitor legions was...Codex:Traitor Legions, and that couldn't be allowed to last more than a few months before GW tore the galaxy in half to get rid of it.

Ain't that the truth.

 Darkseid wrote:
Broken Builds on both Ends
The 3.5 dex wasn't fun for every chaos player. While Iron Warriors enjoyed peek of popularity thanks to very powerful rules, the Thousand Sons for instance had barely any competitive build. Also a multitude of units didn't work at all regardless of allegiance. Internal balance of that codex was difficult to achieve, rendering all the vast options just an illusion for anything but narrative builds.

Most of us have covered that, and not denied it at all.

 Darkseid wrote:
Cult Troops have Evolved
What makes the 3.5 dex popular with cult legion players is that you could slap a mark on almost every unit and call it a World Eater, Death Guard, and so on. This was easy at that time because there was only a single bonus associated with a mark (+1 A for Khorne for instance) so a Khorne biker didn't look out of place next to a Berserker because they had the identical bonuses. Cult troops have changed since, and it is unlikely for them to go back.

I'd argue they've regressed, and you need not look any further than the current Death Guard Codex.

It has Chaos Lords and Sorcerer Lords who aren't Cult Troops. They don't get the benefits of being a Plague Marine, unlike the specifically named Lord of Contagion. All this because GW doesn't make a "Death Guard Chaos Lord" miniature, they only make a "Chaos Lord" miniature. They'd rather than eleventy billion different entries rather than just one "Chaos Lord" option that is a member of the Death Guard and has all the options that are open to those kinds of models (so the big saw, scythe and the regular Termy weapons).

3.5 allowed you to represent Cult troops across the board. Right now the only Cult Troops Khorne has, for example, as Berzerkers. There are no Berzerker Terminators, because... well there just aren't any models. Now I suspect this will change when Khorne and Slaanesh get their uplift, but when Nurgle got their own Terminators they lost things that Death Guard players had already because the new kit didn't include them.

One of my fav miniatures, my Death Guard Terminator Lord with a pair of Lightning Claws, isn't actually a member of the Death Guard anymore as far as the rules are concerned. That's a problem.

 Darkseid wrote:
GW stance on Conversions has changed
A topic discussed elsewhere in length; GWs stance on models without rules has drastically changed since dex 3.5. Where it was possible to field Sonic Terminators, Sonic Predators an the like using some nicely converted models, now you will only get rules for models GW actually sells. While some of the previously converted units might make an official return in a legion codex; it is unlikely that we will ever get the big chaos codex that covers all the options.

I fail to see how this point falls under the preamble of "There is a few points players love to forget when reminiscenting the 3.5 dex:". I'd say this is one we're well aware of, and as someone who hates no model=no rule, it's one that actively hurts every army, let alone Chaos. It's got nought to do with 3.5.

 Darkseid wrote:
All in all the 3.5 was good, but not as great as some people make it out to be.

Still better than everything since.

Kindly get back on topic gents, which is Vigilus and not codex books of days gone by or conversions.

So, almost definitely, there will be an Abaddon at this release. I bet we see Specialist Detachments for Chaos Space Marines (much like there was one for Space Marines) and Black Legion at the very least. Probably leaving Death Guard and Thousand Sons out in the cold (though I would love to see a TSons detachment that makes them viable). I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a Fallen Specialist Detachment (why else are the Ravenwing and Deathwing at Vigilus?). I could see a Deathwing Specialist Detachment, to be honest. I bet we see a Dark Eldar Specialist Detachment as well. Perhaps an Imperial Knight one?

May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

Marleymoo wrote:I wouldn't get too worked up about the countdown. Remember what happened after the Malign Portents countdown?

If I remember right, they just announced a worldwide campaign after the countdown where you had to play games and choose different symbols for the story progression.

If this is similar to that, then you can easily add on an extra 30 days before we even get a glimpse of a new Abbadon.

Looking back, the Malign Portents began at the start of the year and the Soul Wars box and new Nighthaunt stuff came out June 30th.

So yeah, don't hold your breath!

So new 40k edition?

Removed - BrookM

Back on Topic:
My moonshot prediction for Vigilus is that we might see the first Primaris Chapter fall to chaos. More specifically the Sons of the Phoenix, of whom a lot of people speculate to to be based on the Emperor's Children geneseed. With an EC released probably not far off and already teased by GW (see mini of the year commentary), this might be more likely than it looks on the first glance.

I'd hope they would muddy the waters by keeping the Sons of the Pheonix loyal, and having a Chapter from loyalist geneseed turn traitor. I never liked the predeterministic view of traitor geneseed= traitor, and think they could use the tension as a nice narrative device.

The plot could have the Sons of the Pheonix heavily suspected as being traitors for the reasons you suggest, but it turns out they were merely getting scapegoated by another Chapter.

 Haighus wrote:
I'd hope they would muddy the waters by keeping the Sons of the Pheonix lotal, and having a Chapter from loyalist geneseed turn traitor. I never liked the predeterministic view of traitor geneseed= traitor, and think they could use the tension as a nice narrative device.

I share your sentiment on that. One other way they could pull it off, is that Fulgrim is simply much more invested in turning a primaris chapter of his geneseet to chaos than he would with any other chapter.

Chances are most of the loyalist drama will come from the Imperial Fist commander, the Primaris Captain Dravastis Fane, who after his first encounter with chaos radically changed in mindset, becoming a paranoid commander with his gaze mostly fixed towards fighting heretics instead of the hordes of aliens.

He's also responsible for killing off most of the Freeblades by sending them a secret order that saw them perform a suicide charge on the Ork scrap cities. Though the Freeblades, from the world of Dharrovar, needed little prompting to go full moron.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, almost definitely, there will be an Abaddon at this release.

This is what? The third time I have heard this statement in two years At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Angron shows up before him


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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

If Luther escapes then the cats out the bag for DA, then they will have bigger issues then Vigilus.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, almost definitely, there will be an Abaddon at this release.

This is what? The third time I have heard this statement in two years At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Angron shows up before him

There is still hope in me left that the sneaky maybe preview of Abbaddon wasn't just GW trolling us.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

If Luther escapes then the cats out the bag for DA, then they will have bigger issues then Vigilus.

Didn't he already escape during the Fenris campaign books?

At first I wanted Primaris Chaos Marines but now I think it would be a really nice way to differentiate the factions if Chaos never gets them (outside of some very mutated ones from Fabius Bile maybe). It would really help Chaos marines feel like ancient predecessors to their Imperial counterparts.

As for the Fallen I think they will eventually get a Codex of their own, though that doesn't necessarily mean we wont see a preview detachment for them at Vigilus. The current Dark Angels book mentions a force of ~10,000 Fallen gathering in the Warp around Luther and also names a Fallen Daemon Prince with a lions head.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, almost definitely, there will be an Abaddon at this release.

This is what? The third time I have heard this statement in two years At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Angron shows up before him

I was just making sure the clock got reset. We can't have any Abaddons in the correct scale running around with their arms still attached!

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

If Luther escapes then the cats out the bag for DA, then they will have bigger issues then Vigilus.

Didn't he already escape during the Fenris campaign books?

This is what I was thinking..

Changeling did something perhaps and aided his escape.

It’s vague now but I’m sure he escaped..

I have been holding off buying basic CSM marines and Havocs for what feel like years now on the off chance the GW creates a new Chaos Space Marine/Chosen/Havoc kit. I would like to say I have also been holding off getting Abaddon too, but truth is I am not willing spend double digit dollar amounts for the current model.

I have been saving some money on the off chance that at the end of 80 days something like this happens. However, GW hasn't leaked anything all about this. I have heard is the same hope I have for something like above. While GW has pulled the absolutely no news, then boom, new stuff before, I also heard how well Ork-tober went over with players hopes of releases and the actual releases. So I am not getting myself hyped up.

SoIt would be great if some replacement kits came out that I could use for my Black Legion army. I even have a small Fallen army that I would be willing to expand if that was the case. I wouldn't even mind some sort of Abaddon, Haarken, and some other Black Legion dude box if it means a modern Abaddon. At the same time, since there has been nothing more than hope for these things I don't have any actual expectations for them to be released.

Which is fine, about the time the 80 days are done should be enough time to clear off a couple of Kill Team projects off my paint station. If there isn't any Black Legion stuff worth picking up, I will probably just get some space elf trees (Killzone: Deathworld) instead. Those will be more used me anyways as I don't see me playing much actual 40k compared to Kill Team.

Havocs and Oblits would be the idea release for this.

 Darkseid wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I'd hope they would muddy the waters by keeping the Sons of the Pheonix lotal, and having a Chapter from loyalist geneseed turn traitor. I never liked the predeterministic view of traitor geneseed= traitor, and think they could use the tension as a nice narrative device.

I share your sentiment on that. One other way they could pull it off, is that Fulgrim is simply much more invested in turning a primaris chapter of his geneseet to chaos than he would with any other chapter.

The funny thing is, you see a lot of chatter online about X-Chapter turning traitor or Y-chapter rejecting Guilliman Cawl Primaris Marines 2.0 and going rogue..

But no one that plays Loyalist wants to see THEIR chapter go that way .. so it would need to be some successor chapter that's so obscure as to not rock the boat .. but recognisable enough to make some waves at least.

Thoughts along the Flesh Tearers, the shiny new Emperors Pointy Sticks, ..

And I don't think they'll go full heretic, just splinter off into Neutral "We do what we do for the good of the Imperium" schtick.

The more I think about it the more cliche it all sounds ... and I'm wondering if it will happen at all if GW writers just have a SMH moment trying to crowbar this in to Vigilus.

And 40 days or so til Necrons wake up ... come on .. it's gotta happen.. we need to defend the remaining Blackstone ("Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine!")

I predict something really significant being about to happen when a arm of one of the hive fleets shows up to answer the call of the Pauper Princes

Everything organic on the planet then gets liquified (with all the Chaos & SM main players escaping via heroic rear guard actions)

then an Imperial fleet shows up to annihilate the hive fleet and explode the remains of Vigilus and we nip off to a new warzone for the next set of releases

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Havocs and Oblits would be the idea release for this.

The Chaos plasma cannon in one of the Rumour Engine picks strongly supports that one of those two is getting a kit.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

If Luther escapes then the cats out the bag for DA, then they will have bigger issues then Vigilus.

What issues?

See, I always thought DA plot is stupid. If you told an Inquisitor something like "see, 10000 years ago a bunch of guys from this chapter joined traitors" the only sane response to that would "wot? why would anyone care about some silly M30 tall tales? stop wasting my time" or "half of galaxy joined Horus, why these clowns think they are special?".

If DA are going to have any problem, it's the amount of dumb fail slash heresy they did to cover up the nonsense nonissue above. They should not be afraid of Luther or anything unimportant like that, but of the fact someone will eventually uncover their conspiracy or will connect the dots and collate the list of treasons they committed at the drop of the hat after hearing mere rumors...

Danny76 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
May enough we will see Luthor at vigilus. He could wake up and escape the rock, that would give another power model to a trimutave box like they had rowboat, cawl and the grey knight guy. He could consolidate the fallen and give chaos renegades another faction.

Something like that would be enough to awaken the Lion, you would think. Which is fine by me, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

If Luther escapes then the cats out the bag for DA, then they will have bigger issues then Vigilus.

Didn't he already escape during the Fenris campaign books?

This is what I was thinking..

Changeling did something perhaps and aided his escape.

It’s vague now but I’m sure he escaped..

ThenAbbadon and luthor are about to finish curb stomping Rowboat and the rest of the primaris when Lionel walks in smashes both their armies with his “Tactics” and chaos pulls back for reinforcements. Great big imperial hugs all around, then someone asks about which side he was really on, new less than civil war breaks out. Lionel creates a new imperium since he always thought he should have been second in command. Tensions rise as a 40k Cold War brews and all attention is on the rift between the factions. Meanwhile all other races are able to regain territory/lick their wounds. Chaos grabbed enough bodies from the war before Lionel returns so they can start making primaris marines and one of them decides to open up the armory that’s been closed for 10,000 years and they are better equipped.

To be fair, the DA as a mobile chapter could easily move The Rock into the Imperium Nihilus and the Lion coukd easily be the second head of the Eaglento Robutes first. And of. All the primarch combinations they seem like the most effective pair to get things done, Roboute concentrating on social order and logistics and the running of the Imperium, the Lion as the general fighting all the fights.

If Chaos keeps going in the direction that it is currently, I'd actually be pleased. The trouble is, we keep waiting for certain things to come out that... haven't yet. If GW keeps doing these things, I'd be thrilled:

1. Make more daemon engines. I was conflicted about the dinobots at first, but the fact of the matter is that they pull away from the old vindicators and predators and fulfill a similar role, allowing chaos to really look unique when everyone else is still using the rhino chassis.

2. Give Emperor's Children and World Eaters the same attention that Thousand Sons and Death Guard got. That means a daemon primarch, plastic cult troops, cult terminators, unique 'chaff' units (ie tzaangors/poxwalkers) and unique big units (mutalith/plagueburst crawler) to make these factions their own. If GW does this, then Chaos will be on the right track to becoming what people wanted originally, a force that can be varied and flavorful.

The trouble with both of those is that we just have to keep waiting for GW to deem Chaos important enough to release those things rather than making more Primaris/Stormcast again.

Or, we could transition into the Good Timeline where GW realise Primarchs should stay where they belong in the Heresy and don't do any more.