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Longtime Dakkanaut




 greyknight12 wrote:
To answer the OP:
No.

GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.


I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.
   
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I think communicating (or understanding) whether or not certain codices are "meant" to stand alone or be used with allies could help a little bit in tempering our expectations.

Though at this point, I think it's pretty clear GW thinks playing with multiple detachments from multiple codices is something of the norm, for the factions who have that option.

Not sure we've ever heard directly from the rules team whether or not certain armies are meant to be played certain ways.
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 Horst wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Horst wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.


They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.


Some dude back in 2007 wrote a massive article on Bolter and Chainsword here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/101214-the-way-of-the-water-warrior/ that influenced how I played heavily. I had a lot of success with that method, and it's a pretty cool time capsule of what the edition was like reading through the article again.


I loved that article. The water warrior was good playing advice, even today. while there are bits from it that are not current, there are good lessons to be taken away.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
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If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
To answer the OP:
No.

GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.


I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.


This. Gk's issues are much more basic. Hilariously basic, tbh.

A GK strike costs 21pts, 8pts more than the already overpriced 13ppm marine with a boltgun.

A storm bolter costs 2.

That means a strike is paying 6ppm for a single force weapon attack and 1/5 of a mortal wound.

That's goofy. They also suffer from the problem of paying three times more for their melee equipment when A) it would do less damage to nearly any target than their bolters, and B) They have about a 28% chance of getting to use it, at all out of deep strike (I call this "the terminator problem.")

They have no good defense against anti-elite weaponry, they have too few attacks to leverage their ridiculously pricy weaponry, they're slow unless you put them in expensive transports or pay CP to deep strike them...

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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the_scotsman wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
To answer the OP:
No.

GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.


I don't understand why the above would help them, when they essentially have access to a ton of flexibility. They have access to anything the IOM can take in any codex. Not having flexibility isn't their issue, it's that most of their units are bad and not worth taking.


This. Gk's issues are much more basic. Hilariously basic, tbh.

A GK strike costs 21pts, 8pts more than the already overpriced 13ppm marine with a boltgun.

A storm bolter costs 2.

That means a strike is paying 6ppm for a single force weapon attack and 1/5 of a mortal wound.

That's goofy. They also suffer from the problem of paying three times more for their melee equipment when A) it would do less damage to nearly any target than their bolters, and B) They have about a 28% chance of getting to use it, at all out of deep strike (I call this "the terminator problem.")

They have no good defense against anti-elite weaponry, they have too few attacks to leverage their ridiculously pricy weaponry, they're slow unless you put them in expensive transports or pay CP to deep strike them...


Also the army pays for mass deep strike, which also has been nerfed.
   
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Probably not as a solo faction anymore. However, I think they might become a decent Allies option.

At least in Kill Team the Grey Knights do okay.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






I honestly wish they would as the models look incredible. That said, I'm pretty sure they are going to end up being like the Tyranids in 7th edition. I'd love to see them get better in 8th edition, but maybe they'll be much better in 9th?

SG

40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
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With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:
With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
Seems like Grey Knights would be the perfect army to take on the Black Legion if that's the direction that GW is going with the 40K story. It'll be interesting to see what happens with GK next.

SG

40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
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 ServiceGames wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
With Black legion heading to Vigilus I'm expecting a demon incursion, which ideally GKs would get a formation. That being said I'm not expecting one, it's best to not get excited for potential rules in books
Seems like Grey Knights would be the perfect army to take on the Black Legion if that's the direction that GW is going with the 40K story. It'll be interesting to see what happens with GK next.

SG


Yes. It makes sense. This would also explain the conservative point drops for GK terminators and such. I'll be honest I understand them putting giving out a formation as opposed to slapping rules into CA.

But I'm not gonna expect/hype myself for this book, hoping for GK fixes
   
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Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.

Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




MI

Yeah, GKs getting some love when the full Chaos invasion of Vigilus kicks off would make a lot of sense, but we all know what hope is...
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.

Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?
Deathwatch is specifically there to take care of Xenos threats, so I don't think we'd see them going after the Black Legion. That said, will GK be the main choice? That's hard to say. If I remember my fluff correctly, Ordo Malleus takes care of daemon threats not traitor threats. I'm not sure if traitors would fall to Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, or just whichever Imperium army is closest and available.

If Black Legion is bringing chaos daemons with them, then yes, GK is the best option.

SG

40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 ServiceGames wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah I'm sure the marine subfaction that gets the spotlight in the next vigilus book is sure to be the one with no Primaris marine kits to hock.

Let's be realistic boys. I'm guessing it'll be death watch with a heavy focus on fortis teams and how great they are and super customizable too doesn't everybody love Primaris marines?
Deathwatch is specifically there to take care of Xenos threats, so I don't think we'd see them going after the Black Legion. That said, will GK be the main choice? That's hard to say. If I remember my fluff correctly, Ordo Malleus takes care of daemon threats not traitor threats. I'm not sure if traitors would fall to Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, or just whichever Imperium army is closest and available.

If Black Legion is bringing chaos daemons with them, then yes, GK is the best option.

SG


Never have I wanted demons to be.somewhere so badly.

Hopefully. If we do get something... I would expect a new power to cast. I wonder what it will be. Hopefully it isn't demon only casting, but a new buff of some sort.

Plz be a good relic/warlord traits/etc.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
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In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.

I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.
   
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World-Weary Pathfinder





Doubt it,

It doesn't really make much sense to have 2 armies of almost the same quality. GK vs Custodes. Don't get me wrong I use to play GK quite a bit. I think whom ever or what ever group was running things with them has moved on to more stronger and powerful drugs. GK just don't cut it like Custodes in the fanatical department. GK are more of Fanatical Light.
   
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 Viridian wrote:
Doubt it,

It doesn't really make much sense to have 2 armies of almost the same quality. GK vs Custodes. Don't get me wrong I use to play GK quite a bit. I think whom ever or what ever group was running things with them has moved on to more stronger and powerful drugs. GK just don't cut it like Custodes in the fanatical department. GK are more of Fanatical Light.


I like imagining the writers of the marty stu factions as junkies chasing the dragon.

Yall got any more of that one dimensional flawless character?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Leo_the_Rat wrote:
In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.

I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.


The Daemon respawn strategy really doesn't help matters, does it? I don't have the book to hand, but do they have to pay points for the reinforcements?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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Nope i do not think they will. Every edition there is always that 1 army no matter what, no matter how many updates, its always gak.

   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PA GK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Probably not as a solo faction anymore. However, I think they might become a decent Allies option.

At least in Kill Team the Grey Knights do okay.

You can't use most of the units in kill team though. No NDK, no draigo, and nothing in termintor armor.

From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PA GK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.

why not make them really good at something then? Make them either super at melee or super at shoting or at psychic powers. Dark reapers don't beat knights in melee, but they are hell of a shoting unit, and they have a cost comperable to GK. Or if GW can't make them good at one of those tree, then at least make them super resilient from shoting. I saw an old codex GK had and they had some rule that wouldn't let people target them with shoting at some range at all. That would at least help them a bit.

The way I see GK right now, and I don't know much about editions before 8th, GW took away all their special stuff to streamline them. Their special ammo, someone told me their GK HQs could kill models by just doing a single wound, that their basic weapons were str 6 or 7, but then after they took all of that away they didn't give anything back. Marines at least got the primaris, Gulliman and later marine books at least had some effort put in to giving them something special. Am not saying that other marines are ok, but at least they have something to play with. GK have nothing. Their way to play is to take other armies with as few actual GK models possible. As a design idea, that is like selling someone a bad car, just that he has to pay for a ton of repairs on it and then come back and buy another car.



Nope i do not think they will. Every edition there is always that 1 army no matter what, no matter how many updates, its always gak.

But aren't GK bad, like the 3ed or 4th edition back to back? At the same time eldar always seem to be at the top of good lists, so it isn't random, but more like a design choice. Plus it would be nice if GW warned people about this or that army being bad, and not lie that they will fix it next FAQ or CA, only to give them nothing substential.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
In a fluff game then GKs should show up to battle daemons. In the actual game daemons just laugh at GKs.

I've been trying to play GKs for more than a year with very little luck/success. I'm 90% sure that after this weekend I'm trading them in for another army. It's just not worth the frustration anymore.

Stupid question, how does one trade in a GK army, is that like a GW store only thing ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/17 13:59:36


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Karol wrote:


From a competitive standpoint I don't think they can be, GK have almost always been universally bad. Before people say "but 5th ed GK were amazing" 5th ed GK were Razorbacks and Dreads with Psybolt ammo, Inquisition models, and Paladins and HQ models. This build largely benefited from 5th ed vehicle and wound allocation rules. Slim to no actual GK models. PA GK suffer from having too many bells and whistles, they have the durability of standard marines but pay for being psykers, deepstriking, Storm bolters, Force Weapons. They just die too easily to pay for all those upgrades. 40k punishes models for trying to do too many things, specialists tend to be much better investments.

why not make them really good at something then? Make them either super at melee or super at shoting or at psychic powers. Dark reapers don't beat knights in melee, but they are hell of a shoting unit, and they have a cost comperable to GK. Or if GW can't make them good at one of those tree, then at least make them super resilient from shoting. I saw an old codex GK had and they had some rule that wouldn't let people target them with shoting at some range at all. That would at least help them a bit.

The way I see GK right now, and I don't know much about editions before 8th, GW took away all their special stuff to streamline them. Their special ammo, someone told me their GK HQs could kill models by just doing a single wound, that their basic weapons were str 6 or 7, but then after they took all of that away they didn't give anything back. Marines at least got the primaris, Gulliman and later marine books at least had some effort put in to giving them something special. Am not saying that other marines are ok, but at least they have something to play with. GK have nothing. Their way to play is to take other armies with as few actual GK models possible. As a design idea, that is like selling someone a bad car, just that he has to pay for a ton of repairs on it and then come back and buy another car.




They might be able to go the melee route, but their equipment includes both melee and shooting weapons so they will always be paying a bit extra, they also have psychic powers, unless that is eliminated, then you are paying some premium for that, the reason reapers work is because everything they have is directed toward shooting. So if they made the psychic powers just the force weapons, maybe but it is tough to say how it would work. As for shooting immunity it wasn't all that great honestly the Aegis rule was I believe 3D6 x 3 for spotting distance, so not really great at denying much shooting.

As for takiing things away, they replaced some things with stratagems, Force weapons used to auto-kill on a wound with a successful psychic test, but that change was made across the board. What you describe as the GK way to play has always been the way they have been most successful if we are talking about actual GKs (not vehicles). The problem is that they are marines, and as such have the same issues as other marines but then are even more expensive. Until they make some sort of break from the other marines, there is no hope of them being more.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak






Stupid question, how does one trade in a GK army, is that like a GW store only thing ?

He probably has found someone that is willing to trade his grey knights with another army.

Alternatively you could get yourself spikez + green stuff and buy a chaos codex.


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the_scotsman wrote:
TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.

GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.

Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.

Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.

This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.

GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.



You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.

A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.

The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.

- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.
   
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H6 S4 AP- D3D only does more than double the damage a storm bolter does if the target is multiwound.

It does 28% more otherwise.

I'd pay 4 points for that, but if for example you gave my deathwatch a choice between that or the 4 point SB with SIA I'd take the Storm Bolter every time.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.

GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.

Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.

Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.

This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.

GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.



You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.

A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.

The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.

- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.


The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I have a much sadder read on it:
GK are already "fixed" from GW's perspective.

They don't seem interested in pushing GK. But they can't squat them. So they give them meh rules to allow them on the table, but no rules that'll make new players want to take them.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah. We've reached the point where pretty much any MEQ that can take a storm bolter should, and any model that can not take a melee weapon or swap for a cheaper one does.

So the worst Terminators in the game are the ones that can take the least expensive melee weapons, and the best MEQs are the ones that can take the most storm bolters (Deathwatch and Company Vets)

Almost like you look at how much damage a GK can do against any target with its Force Weapon and the damage they can do with the Storm bolter, and you realize "huh, even if charges were AUTOMATIC and not a 28% chance out of DS, the Storm Bolter does more damage"

1A is a crime on these guys. So is not having any good way to get into combat out of deep strike on deep strike reliant units/faction.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Breng77 wrote:
Well although I love the models I did always feel like they were a poorly conceived in game faction. IT is poor game design to create one faction with the express purpose of killing one other faction.


Somehow, despite being essentially that equivalent for Eldar, Harlequins manage just fine - probably because all their abilities aren't EXPRESSLY designed to only work on a particular enemy.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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