Switch Theme:

Realism, 40k and fictional settings.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.

What is social media?

I don't often agree with you, but when I do... I do. Exalted.
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







This might be of interest to some people here;
https://miclonian.com/grimdark-aaron-dembski-bowden/
Its a blog post by ADB on canon and continuity in 40k (I appreciate its only tangentially related to the topic but thought some might enjoy it).

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Sherrypie wrote:
Then again, the game the models are in usually represents just the most heated skirmish clash of the forces involved, where the psychic ninjacommando is in full surprise murder mode. He might have been very sneaky half an hour ago and the month before that, but now the action starts and the swords get drawn.
The Captain and the Librarian both are modeled that way... as in the swords just came out, and the guns just started firing. What is a little more confusing is that the "stealth" units in the rest of that Primaris set are modeled for stealth... as in they haven't started firing yet. So, it's kinda like a squad that doesn't completely know what it is.

SG

40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Galas wrote:A speculative fantasy universe doesn't needs realism, it needs internal consistence.
Exactly. Even with Primaris and all of that, I still think 40k has that.

ServiceGames wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
Then again, the game the models are in usually represents just the most heated skirmish clash of the forces involved, where the psychic ninjacommando is in full surprise murder mode. He might have been very sneaky half an hour ago and the month before that, but now the action starts and the swords get drawn.
The Captain and the Librarian both are modeled that way... as in the swords just came out, and the guns just started firing. What is a little more confusing is that the "stealth" units in the rest of that Primaris set are modeled for stealth... as in they haven't started firing yet. So, it's kinda like a squad that doesn't completely know what it is.

SG
This! I've pointed this out before, and no-one seems to get it. The models ARE stealthy, but right at the moment of their pose, they're in a firefight, they don't need to be stealthy.
The stealth aspect of the Vanguard is them getting into position, and sneaking up to the enemy. It doesn't mean they never "go loud" or engage in a full firefight, it's just that they avoid it with stealth, until they need to go loud and make a mess.

The Librarian and Captain are clearly in a snapshot that shows them engaging targets after their position has been compromised and stealth is no longer their primary goal.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Galas wrote:A speculative fantasy universe doesn't needs realism, it needs internal consistence.
Exactly. Even with Primaris and all of that, I still think 40k has that.

ServiceGames wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
Then again, the game the models are in usually represents just the most heated skirmish clash of the forces involved, where the psychic ninjacommando is in full surprise murder mode. He might have been very sneaky half an hour ago and the month before that, but now the action starts and the swords get drawn.
The Captain and the Librarian both are modeled that way... as in the swords just came out, and the guns just started firing. What is a little more confusing is that the "stealth" units in the rest of that Primaris set are modeled for stealth... as in they haven't started firing yet. So, it's kinda like a squad that doesn't completely know what it is.

SG
This! I've pointed this out before, and no-one seems to get it. The models ARE stealthy, but right at the moment of their pose, they're in a firefight, they don't need to be stealthy.
The stealth aspect of the Vanguard is them getting into position, and sneaking up to the enemy. It doesn't mean they never "go loud" or engage in a full firefight, it's just that they avoid it with stealth, until they need to go loud and make a mess.

The Librarian and Captain are clearly in a snapshot that shows them engaging targets after their position has been compromised and stealth is no longer their primary goal.

That's also the reason why people who insist on crying over unhelmeted models are so eyeroll-y. It's not that space marine characters ALWAYS go unhelmeted, or that Shas'o are always showing blue, or that guard is always mid shout. It's a pose showing a model at a particular moment, and hopefully a cool, visually striking one. The sans headgear aspect draws attention to 'yo, special character here, being extra cool, look at me get extra detail and design over regular guys.' If that somehow rustles someone's jimmies, fine, model yours with helmets on, problem solved.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 ServiceGames wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
You're just arguing opinion. In mine, I think they brilliantly captured the essence of a sneaky primaris marine with the librarian, and utterly and hilariously flubbed that concept with the captain. Others are free to think that the captain fits in perfectly with the 40k setting. it only becomes dishonest when one of the two of us starts trying to argue that the other is objectively wrong.
Not that I really care one way or the other. The over-the-top nature of 40K is one of the things I like about it. So, if it's realistic, great. If it's not realistic, great. I'd rather just have fun. That said, the Librarian may look very stealthy... but he's holding a very brightly shining power sword while using his psyker power. I have a feeling that those power swords hum, buzz, or crackle which would give away his location audibly. And, it'd be like holding up a flare when trying to hide in darkness. Again, it's over the top, so it doesn't really matter. But, the Librarian definitely isn't modeled as being sneaky. Had his sword been turned off and sheathed, then yes! But, not with it out and glowing.

SG


TIL the color a studio painter chose to paint something is the color it must be painted and has anything to do with the design of the sculpt.

I can buy a Boss Snikrot model and paint him with glowing orange knives and a big "hey, I'm an ork, kick me" sign painted on his back, that doesn't make the model not designed to look very stealthy as opposed to other ork sculpts.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Deadshot wrote:

Obviously, aesthetic differences are personal preference, but so then, is realism. You make a solid case for not being DBZ levels of going "Super Mega Ultra Emperor-Saiyen Level Omega" in time of ultimate crisis. But that is only one extreme example. The argument can be had down to the micro-level details such as - "Space Marines are a futuristic super-soldier army, they should not be wearing bright colours and waving swords" vs the classic depiction as Knights in Space with Guns and Swords. Or even the macro-level details - "Titans literally cannot work by physics so should be retconned away in favour of high-altitude strategic bombers! Its more realistic."

While your extreme example of DBZ 40k is solid, and impossible to argue against, "Its 40k, who needs realism?" sums up a lot of the setting. As mentioned, iconic groups like Titans, are staples of the setting that breathe unique character into the setting, and were created on the basis of "because its cool."


Except that 'cool' is also highly subjective and can be influenced by a lack of verisimilitude in a setting.

For example, you bring up Titans but I personally don't find them remotely cool. They're just big, stupid, gimmicky crapfests that look like they were designed by 10-year-olds and which make absolutely no sense in the context of the setting.

I could maybe accept them in a different setting - perhaps one with schizo tech, where air support is all but nonexistent. However, this is a setting with not only incredibly advanced aircraft but also highly advanced spacecraft, with many having enough firepower to devastate or destroy entire worlds. And yet we're supposed to believe that the best weapons are robots so large that said spacecraft would barely have to aim? It breaks my immersion entirely.

What's more, I don't even find the Titans (or knights or whatever) fun or interesting. If anything, they're one of the most tedious aspects of 40k (both in the fluff and on the table). If for some reason I'm in desperate need of seeing giant robots, I'll just watch reruns of Power Rangers.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Yes! That is exactly it. This is how I have always seen fantastical settings. Just because there are daemons and aliens and space marines doesnt mean there isnt realism. It pissess me off when someone goes "Youre questioning *something unrealistic* in a setting with ww1 tanks, gods and superhumans?"

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




 Bookwrack wrote:

That's also the reason why people who insist on crying over unhelmeted models are so eyeroll-y. It's not that space marine characters ALWAYS go unhelmeted, or that Shas'o are always showing blue, or that guard is always mid shout. It's a pose showing a model at a particular moment, and hopefully a cool, visually striking one. The sans headgear aspect draws attention to 'yo, special character here, being extra cool, look at me get extra detail and design over regular guys.' If that somehow rustles someone's jimmies, fine, model yours with helmets on, problem solved.


I don't normally care about all the unhelmeted dudes, but when the community article mentioned that the librarian has a hood to conceal his identity, my first thought was, just wear your helmet!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 05:07:57


 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

 Sim-Life wrote:
If you start saying stuff like "lol it doesn't matter its a game with space supermen fighting magical daemons" (which i've seen on several forums including this one as a counter point when discussing sculpts and such) then you remove any sort of framework on how the setting works and leave the game open to whatever dumb crap people can think up.
I am 100% guilty of doing exactly this on these forums, and it's 100% wrong, and I can only apologize for it. In future, I must endeavor to avoid this kind of dismissive language. Warhammer is not even remotely "realistic," but as you correctly point out, it does have its own internal reality to which it should remain loyal. Anything consistent within the internal reality of the setting, no matter how unrealistic is still believable within that setting, leaving room for debate as to what exactly that consistency is, of course. Perhaps there is an argument for pointing out that when someone says realistic, they really mean believable.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator






There's a brutally simple answer to this debate and it has nothing to do with setting or narrative of 40K.

40K used to be a game for kids. Older kids perhaps, but kids nevertheless. Just like comics used to be for kids, and video games used to be for kids, and a multitude of other things classified as childish. To kids, things like internal coherency of the setting does not matter, because damint, it's super toy soldiers with chainsaw swords fighting space football hooligans and space elves and spiky super toy soldiers. Rule of cool rules all. So by all means let's ride into battle on a magical dinosaur with lazorz.

OTOH, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." Rewind back to the 90s and even early 2000s, and if you as an adult walk into any adult situation and start talking about Thor, Hulk, Superman, Lara Croft or Roboute Guilliman, and the gentlest reaction you'd get would be a number of raised eyebrows. More like, you would be regarded as a bloody weirdo. But people don't put away childish things anymore. We live in an age where someone who is attempting to get elected into a federal government body can go on TV and say that part of his platform will be countering those mean meanies on the internets that give bad reviews to Captain Marvel movie.

So yeah... childish things don't get put away anymore... them's the sign of the times... but even as we do still play with our toy soldiers, we perceive them as adults. We (or at least a lot of us) aren't content with riding into battle on a lazor dinosaur, because to our adult brains it's bloody ridiculous. Just as we look for "deeper meaning" in superhero fare, and forget that it was just colorful picture books about a guy in spandex with the underwear on the outside beating up ridiculous villains.

We're trying to reconcile things that were toys for kids with the fact that it has now become entertainment for adults.
It's impossible. The only way to win here is not to play, or rather, not to think too much about it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't really agree that 40k is or ever has been a game for kids. I've played against a few people who were younger than say 16 over the years but the vast majority of players were 18 plus and I've been playing for over a decade. 40k has a ton of rules and isn't cheap.

40k once you dive a little past the shiny space marines vs monsterous chaos is a ton of background and themes that are not something that someone say seven or so should really be reading or trying to process.

However I do agree that the line has gotten increasingly blurry over the years of what is meant for kids and what is aimed at adults. I remember the first time I went to see Infinity War and a lot of kids 5 to 10 were in tears just in the first few minutes, let alone how floored everyone was by the ending. Having to watch parent explain to a six year old what genocide is while waiting for the after credit scenes of a super hero movie was an odd experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/11 01:08:51


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

-C. S. Lewis, 1952

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Peregrine has won here. C.S. Lewis > The Bible.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 vipoid wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:

Obviously, aesthetic differences are personal preference, but so then, is realism. You make a solid case for not being DBZ levels of going "Super Mega Ultra Emperor-Saiyen Level Omega" in time of ultimate crisis. But that is only one extreme example. The argument can be had down to the micro-level details such as - "Space Marines are a futuristic super-soldier army, they should not be wearing bright colours and waving swords" vs the classic depiction as Knights in Space with Guns and Swords. Or even the macro-level details - "Titans literally cannot work by physics so should be retconned away in favour of high-altitude strategic bombers! Its more realistic."

While your extreme example of DBZ 40k is solid, and impossible to argue against, "Its 40k, who needs realism?" sums up a lot of the setting. As mentioned, iconic groups like Titans, are staples of the setting that breathe unique character into the setting, and were created on the basis of "because its cool."


Except that 'cool' is also highly subjective and can be influenced by a lack of verisimilitude in a setting.

For example, you bring up Titans but I personally don't find them remotely cool. They're just big, stupid, gimmicky crapfests that look like they were designed by 10-year-olds and which make absolutely no sense in the context of the setting.

I could maybe accept them in a different setting - perhaps one with schizo tech, where air support is all but nonexistent. However, this is a setting with not only incredibly advanced aircraft but also highly advanced spacecraft, with many having enough firepower to devastate or destroy entire worlds. And yet we're supposed to believe that the best weapons are robots so large that said spacecraft would barely have to aim? It breaks my immersion entirely.

What's more, I don't even find the Titans (or knights or whatever) fun or interesting. If anything, they're one of the most tedious aspects of 40k (both in the fluff and on the table). If for some reason I'm in desperate need of seeing giant robots, I'll just watch reruns of Power Rangers.


As you say, cool is subjective. I find Titans cool, because they invoke a slightly more realistic version of Megazords from Power Rangers from my childhood. More realistic as in, not ninjaflipping over cities and moving with the speed of a real person and being formed out of the bodies of five sentiment robots.

That said, I don't decry them as realistic, as for all the reasons you and I said. They are impractical and for some, immersion-breaking but for me, they are staples of the setting, a show of overwhelming ground power with no equal, kept around because they are old and revered despite practicality.

The point is that someone thought it was cool, and made it canon, while hand-waving away realism. That's what makes 40k great because things are designed not on how they work, but because the studio thinks that someone might think this is cool. For some that's great, but for those who prefer realism, its not. The difference is that "realism" can be relevant to the setting. Titans are not realistic to the real world, but are to 40k, so when Knights are introduced, you don't need to question the viability or place of knights in the setting - there is already precedent. This is why Primaris got such a mixed reception. Some see the larger scale, more gun focused nature of the models as more realistic and therefore superior. Others see it as lacking precedent in the setting, as with what happened with Tau in its introduction. They break the realism of the setting because they deviate too much from established realism relative to the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

-C. S. Lewis, 1952


Slow clap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/11 11:20:33


I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:
There's a brutally simple answer to this debate and it has nothing to do with setting or narrative of 40K.

40K used to be a game for kids. Older kids perhaps, but kids nevertheless. Just like comics used to be for kids, and video games used to be for kids, and a multitude of other things classified as childish. To kids, things like internal coherency of the setting does not matter, because damint, it's super toy soldiers with chainsaw swords fighting space football hooligans and space elves and spiky super toy soldiers. Rule of cool rules all. So by all means let's ride into battle on a magical dinosaur with lazorz.

.

I am not an old adult myself, not a small kid, but am not old yet. So my insight on this claim is this. I don't know around what kind of kids you were hanging around to think that rules in games don't matter. People that do not play by the rules, and by the way how stupid the games are don't matter, it could be high distance spiting, find out really fast that they have no one to play around. Also making up rules on the go, is a no go, you play the way the group wants to play, not the way you want to play. Maybe from time to time or very specific situations you can push a bit. You are the one with the playstation, it is your house, it is your rules, but try to make it so that others have to watch you play for hours and you will soon find out, that there is no one to watch you play. I seen this happen a lot with kids that were abroad for longer time. They are deeply anti social, don't understand group play, think that just because they want something or something makes them unhappy, the group will just change the rules or that they can bring their own rules out of no where, and that such rules should be accepted. Maybe what you describe is stuff done when you play when your 6 and play by yourself. I guess then it doesn't matter if you follow the rules 100% of time. But then again I took care of enough kids in that age to know that for them rules are just an important as to others. Try to hog too many toys for yourself, not share or break the rules with whom it is ok to play and with whom you never play, and you end up alone in less then 5 min. And there is no coming back from that, unless you really splurge on the money.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: