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2019/04/06 02:40:04
Subject: Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Chikout wrote:
Gloomspite have good board control options with their hordes of grots, they have decent ranged magic and they ate one of the two armies that can steal command points from death players. Their problem is that the fun Troggoth, spider or squig lists do this less well.
Khorne have builds in the new book to make them very fast, and thanks to the wrathmongers they have a pretty decent ranged option. Rumours are that the fyreslayers book will be a pretty substantial rewrite so it will be interesting to see how they shape up. Ironjawz struggle right now against most things, not just summoning. I really hope they get a new book soon.
It was a less-serious way of saying 'having character sniping as the primary counter to any tactic does not function balance-wise because for too many armies that is not a viable option.' Board control only goes so far against the likes of Seraphon (just teleports to wherever), FEC (it all comes in turn 1), LoN (primary summon mechanism is returning slain models to existing units), or Tzeentch (summons ranged units to their own back line anyways). The armies I mentioned (and the like, of which there are many) cannot do anything against that, which means it is not uncommon for a player with such an army to show up and be at a handicap just because of the army they wanted to play. Some players are OK with that element existing, but objectively speaking it is bad for the health of the game.
Board control is a good tactic against summoning, but it is still damage control so long as the summoned units are still being brought in. Having character sniping and board control makes for a solid counter, having just sniping makes for a workable counter, having just board control is a matter of hoping you get enough VPs before they swamp you. Which is a useful tactic but having done it (more than once...) it really is not fun, leading back to it being bad for the game overall. And if one has an aggressive army camping objectives is already a sub-par strategy; thrown on top of the summoning handicap it tends towards just losing with little means of stopping it.
Now this is in broad conceptual terms, the nature of specific imbalances can affect things. Like DoK having buff-stack-cheese to simply kill through everything even when there are summons.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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2019/04/06 03:24:48
Subject: Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There are a few things that weaker armies can do to balance things. The wraithbow artefact can help a bit with sniping. You roll six dice on a unit within 18 and any six does a mortal wound. The unit does not have to be visible. Any army with magic can summon endless spells, which add another ranged damage option. Malign sorcery overall is was of a greater benefit to weaker armies. Putting an ethereal amulet on a thundertusk improves it's survivability considerably.
If the promise of new options for every army in the upcoming expansion are true, it should help the weaker armies.
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2019/04/06 04:34:45
Subject: Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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That is a good point, I think we are all so used to GW expansions being either narrative-only, bad for balance, or so bad for balance they aren't even used, that we have not considered it actually improving things.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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2019/04/06 05:09:02
Subject: Re:Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Stalwart Space Marine
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How can artefacts from malign sorcery benefit "weaker" armies when pitted against stronger armies?
If the said artefacts could only be used by armies considered to be weaker, then it makes sense.
However, malign sorcery artefacts are available to every factions.
Verminlord warpseer can benefit from Ethereal Amulet as much as a frostlord on thundertusk can.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/06 05:23:29
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2019/04/06 07:03:10
Subject: Re:Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:How can artefacts from malign sorcery benefit "weaker" armies when pitted against stronger armies?
If the said artefacts could only be used by armies considered to be weaker, then it makes sense.
However, malign sorcery artefacts are available to every factions.
Verminlord warpseer can benefit from Ethereal Amulet as much as a frostlord on thundertusk can.
In stronger armies these artefacts become redundant. The verminlord is already tanky, the frostlord is not, especially against rend. An artefact that gives an OK ranged attack is much more valuable for an Ironjawz army than the Skaven. They have multiple different ways to take out squishy heroes hiding behind a screen. The artefact is redundant for them.
An artefact that lets you dispell endless spells helps Ko far more than Tzeentch. Etc. Etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/06 07:06:09
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2019/04/06 08:25:45
Subject: Re:Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:How can artefacts from malign sorcery benefit "weaker" armies when pitted against stronger armies?
If the said artefacts could only be used by armies considered to be weaker, then it makes sense.
However, malign sorcery artefacts are available to every factions.
Verminlord warpseer can benefit from Ethereal Amulet as much as a frostlord on thundertusk can.
Something to understand here is that artifacts are not balanced with each other. Every chart of them has a scattering of bad, decent, and good. Some charts have artifacts that are notably terrible or quite overpowered. The more charts a given allegiance has, the better its odds of 'winning the lottery' and getting really good ones. Newer allegiances tend to have more artifact charts, better chances of winning, a ultimately a handful of powerful options. The malign sorcery supplement is like this as well, with a handful of powerful options that anyone can take. To an allegiance with a bunch of charts already this is still useful, but they compete with that allegiance's own 'winners' whereas an army stuck with only one artifact chart has its options expanded dramatically by comparison.
For many of the stronger armies, they have enough potent artifacts of their own that even the best from malign sorcery only offer different ways of filling the same role. For weaker armies, on the other hand, many of those artifacts are better than anything they could take otherwise, and/or open up support options not otherwise available.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/06 08:28:52
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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2019/04/06 11:14:47
Subject: Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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auticus wrote:I know my primary armies have a difficult time sniping heroes. My nurgle army is mostly a counter punch army. My khorne army has some tools but in nearly 100% of my games with them vs power summoning opponent, they are smart enough to wall off their summoner and I can't just get to them because I have poor range.
My slaves to darkness army is...well.... you don't play slaves to darkness against power summoning.
My dark elf army is... well... you don't really play them against power summoning either.
My tomb kings army has some ranged but then you have to politic with your opponent whether or not you can use them since they aren't in the latest GHB and their points cost from when they got points are very much trended toward overcost so its typically going to be a bad day for you there too.
News from the Australian tournament scene is that this list just beat Fec gristlegore so anything is possible.
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2019/04/06 13:19:47
Subject: Summon spam seraphon winning Adepticon is an outlier - Summon Spam is not that strong - lets discuss
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Been Around the Block
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Interview with Adepticon 2019 AOS Champion - Sam Gould
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyfBcKbwsQA&t=143s
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