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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say that it was.

You specified Marine vehicles, which is functionally identical to specifying Predator, since the Predator and Leman Russ are in the same cost and performance class and highly comparable.

A) Predators might be close in price and in the same catergory as a Russ, but they are not even remotely comparable. The Predator is laughably outclassed by the Russ.

B) The Predator is not the baseline Marine tank. The Razorback is the baseline Marine tank.

I'd argue that what Marine tanks need isn't a double-shot ability (not that I'd complain about that mind you), what they need is Machine Spirit pretty much across the board. Marines want to move but they also want to castle, Machine Spirit would help them do both at once.

The Newman wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say that it was.

You specified Marine vehicles, which is functionally identical to specifying Predator, since the Predator and Leman Russ are in the same cost and performance class and highly comparable.

A) Predators might be close in price and in the same catergory as a Russ, but they are not even remotely comparable. The Predator is laughably outclassed by the Russ.

B) The Predator is not the baseline Marine tank. The Razorback is the baseline Marine tank.

A) Predators are comparable to Leman Russes. If one is better than another but fulfil a similar role, then they are comparable. Even just saying that 1 does the job better than another is you comparing them.

B) The Razorback is a transport, not a baseline tank. Predators and Vindicators are the Space Marine standard battle tanks.

Darsath wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say that it was.

You specified Marine vehicles, which is functionally identical to specifying Predator, since the Predator and Leman Russ are in the same cost and performance class and highly comparable.

A) Predators might be close in price and in the same catergory as a Russ, but they are not even remotely comparable. The Predator is laughably outclassed by the Russ.

B) The Predator is not the baseline Marine tank. The Razorback is the baseline Marine tank.

A) Predators are comparable to Leman Russes. If one is better than another but fulfil a similar role, then they are comparable. Even just saying that 1 does the job better than another is you comparing them.

B) The Razorback is a transport, not a baseline tank. Predators and Vindicators are the Space Marine standard battle tanks.

A) By that logic a Basilisk and a Thunderer Cannon are "comparable".

B) In theory maybe, in practice the Razorback is more points efficient. There's a reason you almost never see Predators on the table.

To the OP. The answer is simple. LR command tanks are a BIS vehicle at their price point. BIS meaning - best in slot. As in there really isn't a better tank to choose from. Whats funny is - this was already the case and then they got dropped 25 points LOL.

Leman russes really don’t have a place in any sort of competitive list. That said, I find the executioner to be the best. Battlecannons only having an ap of 2 and variable damage just aren’t reliable. In the right environment or event catachan plasma tank commanders can put out an insane amount of damage. I used 2 at the adepticon team tourney and because of the format they basically had free reign to overcharge and shoot with impunity over all 5 games. With re rolls I never had under 11 shots and maxed out several times. Even when shooting -1 to hit stuff I never did enough damage to bracket myself. Don’t bother taking non commander russes and punisher cannons are best used on vultures that can get to where they need to be.

 Kommisar wrote:
Leman russes really don’t have a place in any sort of competitive list. That said, I find the executioner to be the best. Battlecannons only having an ap of 2 and variable damage just aren’t reliable. In the right environment or event catachan plasma tank commanders can put out an insane amount of damage. I used 2 at the adepticon team tourney and because of the format they basically had free reign to overcharge and shoot with impunity over all 5 games. With re rolls I never had under 11 shots and maxed out several times. Even when shooting -1 to hit stuff I never did enough damage to bracket myself. Don’t bother taking non commander russes and punisher cannons are best used on vultures that can get to where they need to be.

I mean... I literally linked a list that's won 2 GT's on the previous page, that uses 4 Leman Russ Tank Commanders. They certainly can be used in competitive lists and win. They do rely a lot on getting to shoot first though. They'll dumpster a Castellan if they can fire first, if they have overlapping fields of fire + old grudges.

Executioners are decent, but I found the prevalence of -1 or -2 to hit combined with the 36" range and slow movement made them a bit worse than regular tank commanders.

Ignoring the tournament side of things...Russes are without question the best tank in the game, even without tank commanders.

1) They're very reasonably priced for their wounds/toughness (which is almost on par with a Land Raider)
2) The shoot twice ability is absolutely massive (which in turn is what makes them very valuable)
3) They're cheap enough to be fielded in decent numbers, and at the same cost of a Knight you can often get 3-4 Russes which is more wounds/more guns.
4) They have weapons for every scenario. The model is also easy to swap these out, and it's a nice kit for modelers.
5) They can carry so many weapons that a single stratagem is often worthwhile (try "Vengeance for Cadia" on a Punisher Gatling Russ with three heavy bolters = 49 shots re-rolling hits and wounds)
6) At the end of the day, even a normal Russ is a tough unit with a good gun that you can't ignore. Very few armies can wipe them off the table quickly/efficiently.

I think the key advantage, particularly of the basic Russ is that it won't be the main target in an army. If it is, there are more sitting nearby. If you shoot a basic Russ you're ignoring the Bullgryn bombs, the Basilisk support, the Hellhounds speeding at you, and potentially antother 2-9 Leman Russ tanks as well.

I think the Guard codex is superb, and is one of the best balanced/richest books with so many good options. A Russ may not win you LVO but it's such a solid and dependable work horse you're never making a bad decision adding it to your list. By contrast the Space Marine tanks weep in their cereal.

PS: I'm weird but my favourite is without question the Demolisher. I think it's a hidden gem.

Demolisher is great. In my supreme command I like to take 2 battle tanks and a demo russ. If they have certain kinds of units...like a 5 man Custodian warden squad....It's just so good in that situation it is worth taking for probably not having many good targets turn 1. Turn 2 it is usually pulling it's weight.

Russ is an ideal unit for what it pays for and what it does - shooting and surviving. No gimmicks, just spam that T8 and roll the dice.

@ OP:

I just mentioned the Knights as something to consider. If you’re set against, that’s all good.

My *extensive* experience with Russes has shown me the Commander upgrade is no-brainer obvious in terms of in-game effect. I always take lots of “Troop” units so can easily run multiple Battalions using Command Russ and Company Commanders as the HQ choices.

I always add sponsons because they’re points efficient ways to add extra firepower. I regret the “wasted points” when they’re one-shotted by Knights, but in nearly all games I feel they’re worthwhile.

In terms of optimization, I like Battlecannon Russ with Lascannon and Plasma Sponsons, with the Catachan Doctrine. This “unlocks” Sergeant Harker, that gives a RR 1’s aura, on top of the RR # of shots. Keep Plasma infantry nearby for spacing / benefit from RR 1’s from Harker.

Plasma-spam Russ are also viable in Catachan near Harker. Reroll # shots, and avoid the overheat.

Catachan Hellhounds make beautiful support to this, taking care of any infantry nearby. No hit rolls, so BS doesn’t matter but rerolling # shots is awesome.

Catachan Manticores with a nearby Master of Ordnance reroll # of shots and reroll 1’s.


I like Command Punishers with 3x HB, with Tallarn Doctrine. Super mobile, easy to get in range, tons of shots at full BS, while moving fast. Combined with Talarn infantry (I use Meltas and Plasma Pistols) you can have some very fast moving units that hit hard.

In general, Russ are fairly slow. You don’t get to choose your targets, so much as your opponent decides what to leave in your LOS. As such, I prefer multi-task Russ that can handle a variety of units well. The Battlecannon, Lascannon, Plasma Sponson would be my go-to. High rate of fire, high strength, multi-damage weapons. Good at killing anything, if overkill vs hordes.

PS: Magnetizing Russ is super easy! Put a magnet on the inside of the turret behind where the cannon mounts. Put a magnet inside the hull weapon mount, and inside the turret pivots. Take a couple of rolled up staples, and glue them to the sockets of the guns. Even weak magnets will hold the guns in place. You could probably get away with just push-fitting the guns in, but magnetizing is very easy and you don’t have to be quite as careful moving your model.

 greatbigtree wrote:
This “unlocks” Sergeant Harker, that gives a RR 1’s aura, on top of the RR # of shots.

Why don't you just have the tank commander issue itself the re-roll 1s order? Harker seems pretty redundant here (though obviously good for other units).

Id suggest checking out Mordian Glory, dude has a nice playlist of unit reviews.

He covers variants, doctrines, and gets into playstyles as well. A solid start for anyone coming into 8th Ed Guard

I am likely out of date with my rules, but I think there was a problem with Tanks issuing orders to themselves? Maybe not... I have a Harker conversion model that I like to use and he’s hanging out with the supporting infantry anyhow, so there’s that.

If TC can issue orders to themselves, then I suppose Harker is redundant. But you could take advantage of the reroll aura and combine it with the Fire and Smoke order? If Harker is there anyhow.

Edit: I don’t believe I used a proper name there. Feel free to delete, but please don’t make it appear I used a name I didn’t.

Thank you.

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Peregrine:

I am likely out of date with my rules, but I think there was a problem with Tanks issuing orders to themselves? Maybe not... I have a Harker conversion model that I like to use and he’s hanging out with the supporting infantry anyhow, so there’s that.

If TC can issue orders to themselves, then I suppose Harker is redundant. But you could take advantage of the reroll aura and combine it with the Fire and Smoke order? If Harker is there anyhow.

Tanks can 100% issue orders to themselves. They are friendly models within 6" of themselves.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Edit: I don’t believe I used a proper name there. Feel free to delete, but please don’t make it appear I used a name I didn’t.

Please don't try to edit your posts and lie about the blatant insult you used. You may regret it, but don't try to act like it never happened and you're being misquoted.

That said, yes, tank commanders can give orders to themselves. The restriction you are thinking of was only in the index, it does not exist in the codex.

I did not edit my post to remove the insult, Frenemy mine. I never regret misusing your name. I enjoy it greatly.

I certainly wouldn’t have corrected it to your proper name. The whole point of it is to *avoid* using your name, and instead put in an insult or at least something nonsensical.

It is a deliberate barb every time. I’m sure you know that. I was upset about it being edited to a proper user name. So I deleted the proper user name that was put in the place of a deliberate misnaming.

And thank you for the rules update, I missed that.

I did the editing. Misusing someone's name to be deliberately insulting is, strangely enough, a violation of rule 1 (be polite). Please don't do it.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

Autocannon russes suck for thier points. They were awesome in 7th though so maybe Im just being nostalgic. The battle cannons and gatling cannons you are right about. Demolisher cannons are also good but are probably bigger fire magnets than even punishers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tbf, all russes have thier place and uses. All except for my favourite variant which is the vanquisher. I hate what GW did to the vanquisher. I use one in my "main" list but its legit worse than the lrbt at everything. Hell, even the punisher can take out heavy vehicles better than the vanquisher and the vanq is supposed to be a tank destroyer

AM armor is pretty good and as far as i remember it get point decrease in CA 2018. In Vigilus Defiant AM got the good things, good and super useful stratagems. So with the so anaynched Castellan and Ynnari nerfs incoming it will not surprise me if AM start winning even more.

123ply wrote:
Autocannon russes suck for thier points. They were awesome in 7th though so maybe Im just being nostalgic. The battle cannons and gatling cannons you are right about. Demolisher cannons are also good but are probably bigger fire magnets than even punishers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tbf, all russes have thier place and uses. All except for my favourite variant which is the vanquisher. I hate what GW did to the vanquisher. I use one in my "main" list but its legit worse than the lrbt at everything. Hell, even the punisher can take out heavy vehicles better than the vanquisher and the vanq is supposed to be a tank destroyer

Actually they recently dropped in price and average out with 1 shot more constant then the 7 from the normal BC.

Overall the BC version is still better but if you are firmly in the "NEVER LUCKY" camp then the AC version has it's merits. (mostly no double 1-1 shots)

I can't say a bad word about Executioner Tank commander with plasma sponsons using Vostroyan tactics. In smaller games (1000 and less) it is an absolute wrecker for anything T7 and less. Overcharge the plasma, play the +1 BS stratagem, order to reroll ones, keep a reroll for that 2D6 and deliver the pain.

Taking 1-2 regular Russes along is not a bad idea either. One with Battlecannon for long-range support, the other one as something shorter-ranged to support the executioner.

And don't forget plenty of infantry support. Tanks are a big fire-magnet too.

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The game is doomed - people can't even agree command tanks are OP. LOL.

I would rather face command tanks than another Knight.

Leman Russ and Command Tanks have strengths and weaknesses. For the Knights they just took all the weaknesses away.


However LR are still very solid choices and Command Tanks are in that small minority of units in the game that are clearly competitive and hang with pretty much any competitive opposition. If someone wants to call this class of models OP then that is OK, that is just the way they are using the term. Certainly in any sort of semi-casual setting most of these things should be used with restraint because they are overpowered by comparison with the median units in the game.

The Castellan is an outlier. It is obviously OP and in the way it totally skews the viability of so many other units in the game it is not unreasonable to consider it brokenly OP - not because it auto-wins every game but because so many other things are rendered immediately uncompetitive because it exists in the game. It does not break the game but it certainly does break the meta - and the LRBT is one of the big losers in that. Like any other big heavy tank all its defensive stats are rendered rather worthless by the Castellan firepower and its own return firepower is just not adequate to bring down the knight fast enough to ever win that shoot-out.

Alright first to the OP Russ tanks are good. I'd agree with those who say tank commanders are where it is at. However I'd disagree that only catachan are good in that regard.

Talaran ability to move and not suffer from to hit penalties are great. Cadian can be just as good as Catachan as if they are sitting still they auto re roll ones to hit, but can issue orders for being able to re roll the dice for random shots of the turret with pound them to dus which is a cadian centric order as well you have access to Pask which while he is a bullet magnet I mean something in your list is going to take fire, might as well know which one it will be right off.

As for the kinds ? It's been said but Standard battle tank is good, Executioners can be good and punishers in the right positions are great. I mean you've gotten plenty of good advice so I'll just add that to it.

As for Predators, they have been pretty crap for a long time to me. I started with marines and the standard LRBT have always been great by comparison. I'm sad Vindicators are so poor now but they always felt like a poor mans demolisher anyways. I think the reasons why they are bad has been noted though.

Long and short of it, LRBTs are good, the standard heavy support versions aren't great they are OK, the tanks commanders in the right hands are top shelf. Knights are better but then Knights are are the cheese that walks. Better to stick to the Cheddar that grinds forward. If you don't mind the fact that LRBTs are ok to great but maybe not quite as good as a Knight, go with them I love my guard tanks, loved them when they were good, bad and in between.

I'll never not love my russes. I run a plasma + las executioner, an exterminator HB commander, and a vanilla russ with HB sponsons. Executioner usually gets focused first but by that point my veterans are usually in position to FRF,SRF and wipe anything short of tanks, which the valkyrie that dropped them can usually cripple/kill. I think that a lot of the value from russes is that they can distract a lot of fire from other units and still do a good amount of killing. They work very well in the roll of infantry support like the british tanks of WWII where intended to and can be even better value when other elements are used with them.

Also If nothing distracts fire away from russes like a baneblade