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 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

There has been some mention of using other ranges as 'counts-as'. In the vein of further clarifying my original stipulations, I wanted to make sure I covered all of the bases. Especially since some of the resin recasts I've seen recently equal (or even surpass) the quality of certain FW models. What people do or do not choose to do with their money is up to them. I just thought it bore mentioning.

First of all, using count-as is something completely different from using re-casts
And no one said anything about staying on a budget by using illegal things.

and if you are going to get stuff from ebay, specially for metal models, it is impossible to say if something already build and painted is a re-cast or not (with FW from time to time shipping bad quality and GW metal models were bad as well in the last days if their existence it is more likely that a good looking model on ebay is a re-cast rather than the bad quality one)

 kodos wrote:

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

There has been some mention of using other ranges as 'counts-as'. In the vein of further clarifying my original stipulations, I wanted to make sure I covered all of the bases. Especially since some of the resin recasts I've seen recently equal (or even surpass) the quality of certain FW models. What people do or do not choose to do with their money is up to them. I just thought it bore mentioning.

First of all, using count-as is something completely different from using re-casts
And no one said anything about staying on a budget by using illegal things.

and if you are going to get stuff from ebay, specially for metal models, it is impossible to say if something already build and painted is a re-cast or not (with FW from time to time shipping bad quality and GW metal models were bad as well in the last days if their existence it is more likely that a good looking model on ebay is a re-cast rather than the bad quality one)

You find out pretty quickly if you strip the model. There are telltale signs in finding out if a model is a recast or not, double mould lines are a common one. Metal models were more often than not pretty good quality, more so than their finecast counterparts which had frequent slipped moulds.

You aren't buying models on eBay for the paintjob anyway, you buy for the model and strip them so painted models should not be something you include in your budget.

I'm very tempted to sit down and think out a proper cost for an army or two because this is something I'm keen on doing myself.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

There has been some mention of using other ranges as 'counts-as'. In the vein of further clarifying my original stipulations, I wanted to make sure I covered all of the bases. Especially since some of the resin recasts I've seen recently equal (or even surpass) the quality of certain FW models. What people do or do not choose to do with their money is up to them. I just thought it bore mentioning.

First of all, using count-as is something completely different from using re-casts
And no one said anything about staying on a budget by using illegal things.

and if you are going to get stuff from ebay, specially for metal models, it is impossible to say if something already build and painted is a re-cast or not (with FW from time to time shipping bad quality and GW metal models were bad as well in the last days if their existence it is more likely that a good looking model on ebay is a re-cast rather than the bad quality one)

You find out pretty quickly if you strip the model. There are telltale signs in finding out if a model is a recast or not, double mould lines are a common one. Metal models were more often than not pretty good quality, more so than their finecast counterparts which had frequent slipped moulds.

You aren't buying models on eBay for the paintjob anyway, you buy for the model and strip them so painted models should not be something you include in your budget.

I'm very tempted to sit down and think out a proper cost for an army or two because this is something I'm keen on doing myself.

However, for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming that we are buying everything retail, e.g. directly from GW, or a FLGS that sells GW.
Excepting the paints and modelling supplies. Those cant be verified by the judges.

I guess the only way to figure it would be to see what has won big tourneys and how much those builds cost to put together.

Course, then you're chasing yesterday's meta arguably.

Good luck.

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

However, for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming that we are buying everything retail, e.g. directly from GW, or a FLGS that sells GW.

Than there is no real point in doing it.
As there is no way to stay on a budget if it is OVP GW models from retailers only.

Than your exercise is to finde the retailer with the biggest discount as their won't be big a huge saving otherwise

 kodos wrote:

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

However, for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming that we are buying everything retail, e.g. directly from GW, or a FLGS that sells GW.

Than there is no real point in doing it.
As there is no way to stay on a budget if it is OVP GW models from retailers only.

I think the OP is trying to establish what his budget should be in the first place - reasonable expectations and all. Unfortunately it very much depends on army choice and build and can swing from 500 USD to near 1000 USD for a 2000 point army. It would be easier if the OP chose an army and we could discuss builds and costs from there.

If OP wants to buy a tournament ready 2k net list, they should expect to spend 1500-2500 USD, depending on faction. Some factions cost more due to larger model count, or difficult/detailed paint schemes.

blaktoof wrote:
Now that metal models are gone it is impossible to very difficult to determine if something is recast.

Some recasters even ship in forgeworld packaging.

For the sake of this post I am going to assume OP means netlist that has won a major tournament = competitive.

If that is the case, then you cannot buy 300usd army. Not even 500. With eBay at 15% off you could get some net lists for 750 new on sprue/new in box.

You can buy 2k pt armies for less than 300, or 500 although the internet's would not consider them competitive. The Christmas bundles, and the bigger boxed sets with 2 factions are excellent values, but they won't directly build you a net list.

That said net lists are fairly over rated, there are many RTTs and GTs that are won by not net lists.

Weeeeellll.....

Do you have to get picky/choosy about what netlist you take?

GW sells 5 pressfit cadians for 10$ on the webstore.

so that's 60 to get your loyal 30, and we'll say for 25 you buy a command squad to get the 2.

Knight castellan is 170

dawneagle jetbikes are 60.

Assuming you run triple shield captains, is that 2k? I don't have a good sense on how much left over you might have there. Certainly if you bought 1 more box of dawneagles or a pair of helverins you could get to 2k? That's 315 though you'd have to suck it up and buy three fething codex books.

 John Prins wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

However, for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming that we are buying everything retail, e.g. directly from GW, or a FLGS that sells GW.

Than there is no real point in doing it.
As there is no way to stay on a budget if it is OVP GW models from retailers only.

I think the OP is trying to establish what his budget should be in the first place - reasonable expectations and all. Unfortunately it very much depends on army choice and build and can swing from 500 USD to near 1000 USD for a 2000 point army. It would be easier if the OP chose an army and we could discuss builds and costs from there.

The point of doing it under the stipulations I set was to keep it as simple as possible. There is no empirical way to track and more importantly, predict what sells for what second hand. Ebay is one way, trading another, your sister's cousin in law gives you that lucky 'family discount' yet another.

I am a fluffy player. I play Tau and Salamanders, and have paid retail for precisely 4 things in my armies. In no way would I consider them tournament ready. As I set out in the beginning, this is purely a thought experiment. The number of folks that complain about GW's prices (me VERY MUCH included) are legion.

I'm just trying to see what people who know far better than me think about when squaring the circle between power gaming and $$ investment.
I guess I feel that to put a specific faction forward would inherently taint the conversation. It would quickly become a 'who's on first' of which faction is at the top of the meta/codex creep.
Admittedly, I have set some rather stringent boundaries on my question, but I do have one bit of vested interest- my son, who is about to turn 14, is getting into the game. He's not sure which faction he wants to play. So far, he's been learning with my Tau. Now, i dont want to enable him to be TFG, but I want him to have a decent chance to not be destroyed every game simply because his army is so far behind the meta.
Eventually, he'll develop his own style and taste for the game, but right now, he's deluged with a bunch of cool looking stuff, and is looking to me for guidance. Hence, I turn to the Jedi Council of Dakka.
To append- I dont have the time nor the inclination to netlist. I want him to learn to build his own army. Having said that, my funds are limited and I'd like to know, as was stated above, what to expect.

Every faction has units which are bad, and some of them look really cool.

I would figure out which factions your son wants to play, and would like to build/paint.

If your son likes knights you are in luck, in many ways they are the most forgiving army, and don't cost so much to be competitive- even without running some soup allied list.

Some combination of knights with the new primaris vanguard half of shadowspear can build a decent army for under 500 dollars.

Pick up the monobuild intercessors from dark imperium 2x5 is about 40 USD
Vanguard half of shadowspear is about 90 USD
3 x imperial knights is 285
(These are all eBay prices, 15% off MSRP)


++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [66 PL, pts] ++

Knight Gallant [20 PL, pts]: Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

Knight Paladin [23 PL, pts]: Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon

Knight Warden [23 PL, pts]: Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [41 PL, pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour [6 PL, pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

Librarian in Phobos Armour [6 PL,pts]: Camo cloak, Force sword

+ Troops +

Infiltrator Squad [11 PL, ]: 8x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Helix Adept, Infiltrator Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, ]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL,]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

+ Fast Attack +

Suppressor Squad [5 PL,
. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Grav-chute
. Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Grav-chute

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [3 PL,
. 2x Eliminator: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak

List is 415 dollars on eBay.

Has about 15 points to mess around with, participates in all phases of the game, and has 14 cp to spend.

I have some tips when it comes to "budget" Warhammer.

1. Army selection. Some armies are just more expensive to get into, and some are harder to convert, scratch build, or find 3rd party kits for. Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Orks are on the easy end. Eldar, Necron, and Tyranids are on the hard end.

2. Know your kits. If you start collecting you can get a "free" model every once in a while. In the past one Space marine kit came with an extra set of legs (kneeling, I think this came from a command squad?) and other kits came with extra torsos, arms, heads, and weapons. Poof, free extra marine. This also works for certain weapons options. In 3rd edition I noticed that it was much cheaper to buy a 10 man Spacewolf Bloodclaw box, and 2 sprues of jumppacks than it was to buy 2 5-man boxes of assault marines. Not only was it cheaper, it came with all the same sprues, plus a Space Wolf accessory sprue with a few extra torsos, heads, weapons, shoulder pads, and power packs. Great for trading or converting.

3. Conversions. If you have a bits box with left-over parts you might be able to rig up something so you don't have to buy an official kit. My Vanquisher (way before the plastic kit existed) was a standard Leman Russ with a pen used to make a longer barrel.

4. Scratch builds. This requires a bit of skill, but can be quite rewarding. A local kid I got started into the hobby did a budget Ork army. He got good with bits and made a surprisingly good conversion from a dollar-store Army-Man tank. All it cost him was loose change, random garbage, a hunt through my bits box, and time.

5.3rd party/ alternate lines. There are many makers out there that do VERY nice weapons and even whole models that will fit right into 40k. I use a handful of VOID minis that when painted look like Catachans. They're close enough even a GW store manager thought they were old-school GW minis from a distance.

6. FLGS bits box. I only visit a physical store about once a month, but every time I do I snag a few things from their bits box of a dollar or two, even if I don't need it right away. Last week I shook out my bits bags I collected over the last 18 months (yes, I just heap them up when I get home and forget what I bought) and found I had enough bits to rig up a decent sized squad of Deathwatch marines with stormbolters and chainswords. I still had a heap of leftover parts for other conversions.

7. 2-force starter boxes and people that buy them. A lot of the time people only want one of the forces from a starter box. The best time to jump on this chance is at the beginning of a new edition when everyone is collecting something new. I did just this. A lot of players in my area wanted the Deathguard, and were letting the Primaris Marines they came with go for rock-bottom prices. I jumped on this, buying three sets of the Primaris Marines, e-baying off any extras I didn't want (who needs more than one standard bearer?)

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

However, for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming that we are buying everything retail, e.g. directly from GW, or a FLGS that sells GW.

Than there is no real point in doing it.
As there is no way to stay on a budget if it is OVP GW models from retailers only.

I think the OP is trying to establish what his budget should be in the first place - reasonable expectations and all. Unfortunately it very much depends on army choice and build and can swing from 500 USD to near 1000 USD for a 2000 point army. It would be easier if the OP chose an army and we could discuss builds and costs from there.

The point of doing it under the stipulations I set was to keep it as simple as possible. There is no empirical way to track and more importantly, predict what sells for what second hand. Ebay is one way, trading another, your sister's cousin in law gives you that lucky 'family discount' yet another.

I am a fluffy player. I play Tau and Salamanders, and have paid retail for precisely 4 things in my armies. In no way would I consider them tournament ready. As I set out in the beginning, this is purely a thought experiment. The number of folks that complain about GW's prices (me VERY MUCH included) are legion.

Of course we keep it simple
And no one argues to be the lucky one who find something useful for free in the basement from a friend.

But buying the Core Boxes and selling the Faction+Rules you don't need to save on money is less simple than just buying just the faction from the Box you need from ebay or somewhere else
Same for 3rd party models, pay 85$ for the loyal 32 Snap Fit Cadians or use SciFi human soldiers from a different company that gives you 40 full kit models for 60$

Same with weapons, talking about competitive, there is no point in buying 4 Boxes Havocs at 220$ for the new Chaos Gatling Gun to get one unit on the table if you can get the same for 65 if you use one Box Havocs with 3rd party weapons or a Box Marines with FW weapons.

Saying GW models from Retailers only already makes already a difference of 155$ for a single unit. There is no way to get a tournament army (one that has a chance to be placed in the middle or higher) on a budget if you do it that way. You either have to skip the GW from Retailers only or part or don't care what place you will end up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
In 3rd edition I noticed that it was much cheaper to buy a 10 man Spacewolf Bloodclaw box, and 2 sprues of jumppacks than it was to buy 2 5-man boxes of assault marines. Not only was it cheaper, it came with all the same sprues, plus a Space Wolf accessory sprue with a few extra torsos, heads, weapons, shoulder pads, and power packs. Great for trading or converting.

Best deal I ever made, specially as the 10 Jump Pack Sprue was sold in its own it my local FLGS

Some good points. My previous armies in 1st-5th edition were all pretty much full retail. However, my first land Raider cost $25, so there's that.
There is a part of me that wants to at least throw GW a bone now and then just to keep the machine healthy, but there is a larger part of me that says 'they've already made theirs on this model, I just want to save!
I guess I could just teach my son the wonders of ebay/trading as part of the learning experience. In fact, that just might leave him with knowledge greater than simply playing with toy soldiers.
However, I also want him to have the 'new shiny' experience of going to a shop and buying his own, brand new, never-been-touched kit and building it himself.
I dont think any of us are immune to THAT particular bug...
Recent developments- I just bought him the 2 player small starter box (primaris, DG and a few poxwalkers; cant remember the name right off)
I think this might be a better way to teach him from the ground up, rather than overwhelm him with hinky tau shenanigans.
All of this aside, it seems to me that, regarding retail costs, the consensus seems to be 'nope'. Just getting back in, I wasnt sure what the current 'money-meta' was.