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 Dovis wrote:

If you're playing Chaos you can bump that up to -3 to hit and since it also has a hellbrute keyword - fire with it twice. Making it the best Chaos unit as well, for 289 points

Minor quibble, but it is not a Hellbrute for the purposes of Hellbrute only stratagems. It's worth also bearing in mind that the chaos version only has a 5+ invul against shooting.

Any space marine chapter can take them

From what I have been told here Grey Knights can't take them. That is why I was asking how can they be added in to an army that can't take them.

 Dovis wrote:


If you're playing Chaos you can bump that up to -3 to hit and since it also has a hellbrute keyword - fire with it twice. Making it the best Chaos unit as well, for 289 points

Nope, Fire Frenzy has been stated to only affect a unit named "Helbrute", not units with that keyword. If it weren't, you'd see it all the time.

Couple of things...

-As mentioned, the Leviathan does not benefit from Fire Frenzy
-The Chaos Leviathan has a 5+ invulnerable vs. shooting (4+ vs. close combat) and that difference is very important.
-Being Hellforged the Chaos Leviathan cannot be fixed by a Warpsmith or any other tricks - it can solely heal itself by eating infantry models in close combat.

Regarding being "super tough". I had a normal dreadnought knock 11 wounds off it in a single shooting phase with twin-lascannon and missile launcher. My entire group is scared of Leviathans and target them heavily every game I field them.

 Elbows wrote:
Couple of things...

-As mentioned, the Leviathan does not benefit from Fire Frenzy
-The Chaos Leviathan has a 5+ invulnerable vs. shooting (4+ vs. close combat) and that difference is very important.
-Being Hellforged the Chaos Leviathan cannot be fixed by a Warpsmith or any other tricks - it can solely heal itself by eating infantry models in close combat.

Regarding being "super tough". I had a normal dreadnought knock 11 wounds off it in a single shooting phase with twin-lascannon and missile launcher. My entire group is scared of Leviathans and target them heavily every game I field them.

Thanks for clarification regarding FF



Now regarding 11 wounds from 2 las and 1 missile, well, dice happens, theoretically you can also kill a knight with 4 las cannon shots, it's just that these things are not that likely. Also with -3 to hit Levi is far more durable than a knight, statistically, it can still die from 3 lascannon hits


5++ isn't that much of a problem if you put your Levi in cover, weapon hits with -3 AP will still be saved on a 4+ roll

 Dovis wrote:

5++ isn't that much of a problem if you put your Levi in cover, weapon hits with -3 AP will still be saved on a 4+ roll

Actually no, you can't benefit from cover when taking an invulnerable save. From the FAQ:

"Remember that invulnerable saves are unaffected by the +1 bonus models receive to their saving throws for the benefits of cover."

 Stux wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

5++ isn't that much of a problem if you put your Levi in cover, weapon hits with -3 AP will still be saved on a 4+ roll

Actually no, you can't benefit from cover when taking an invulnerable save. From the FAQ:

"Remember that invulnerable saves are unaffected by the +1 bonus models receive to their saving throws for the benefits of cover."

It has a 2+ armor.

So that's a 4+ armor against AP-3 with Cover.

I appreciate the idea that you'll be able to have a stack of negative to hit modifiers on your Leviathan at all times, but it doesn't work out that way (I also will never play Alpha Legion rules, so there's that).

I'm simply speaking from personal experience, my Leviathans are not survivable and thus I don't believe I get nearly enough work out of them to be worth the 300 points. Particularly when contemptors and normal dreads got a pretty decent points reduction. Again, I hear all the time about people saying the Leviathan wins all of their games for them - just not mine.

Just ordered my Leviathan yesterday with two Storm Cannon arms. I'll try to magnetize them in case I order some of the other arms in the future.

Can Leviathans be taken in a Death Guard army or do you need to take a generic Chaos SM detachment? According to Battescribe, Death Guard can't take them or Contemptor dreadnoughts even though they make a Death Guard specific one. Is battle scribe just not updated?

Azeroth wrote:
Just ordered my Leviathan yesterday with two Storm Cannon arms. I'll try to magnetize them in case I order some of the other arms in the future.

Can Leviathans be taken in a Death Guard army or do you need to take a generic Chaos SM detachment? According to Battescribe, Death Guard can't take them or Contemptor dreadnoughts even though they make a Death Guard specific one. Is battle scribe just not updated?

Death Guard can indeed take Leviathans!

In Battlescribe, Forgeworld Chaos stuff is listed in the FW Heretic Astartes roster, which you'll need to add on to any Death Guard detachment that you want to include Forgeworld units in.

Note that Battlescribe as it is currently setup does not check whether the Forgeworld units you add in this way can be taken as Death Guard - it doesn't know whether you're intending for the detachment to be Death Guard specifically or general Chaos Space Marines. So you would still need to check in the Forgeworld index.

Azeroth wrote:
Just ordered my Leviathan yesterday with two Storm Cannon arms. I'll try to magnetize them in case I order some of the other arms in the future.

Can Leviathans be taken in a Death Guard army or do you need to take a generic Chaos SM detachment? According to Battescribe, Death Guard can't take them or Contemptor dreadnoughts even though they make a Death Guard specific one. Is battle scribe just not updated?

Death Guard can take them, it's just a lil bit fiddly on Battlescribe.

I have a double butcher cannon one, and haven't regretted my purchase. You might want to consider magnetising the waist as well, it provides some fun posing options and is much easy to transport.

 Elbows wrote:
I appreciate the idea that you'll be able to have a stack of negative to hit modifiers on your Leviathan at all times, but it doesn't work out that way (I also will never play Alpha Legion rules, so there's that).

If you won't play with that legion trait I'm not sure that you are best placed to judge from experience on their survivability in that setup.

A Lev with apostle support is nearly always going to be sitting on -2. Nurgle buff is dice dependent, sure, but -3 often isn't necessary because no-one can bring themselves to shoot at -2 anyway. You're often better off throwing it on your second dread to give the pair of them -2 at that point.

That's because I judge a unit on its capabilities, not the result of numerous stratagems, buffs, spells and addiitonal units (none of which can ever be counted on reliably).

It's incorrect to categorically state that a unit is good when you're not addressing the unit itself, but rather what it "could" be in a super situational setting. Those external factors don't change the value of the unit itself for its points cost. If you're going to state that, then address the unit itself, and then quantify your statements with: "However, it can be better with...." etc.

Valuing a unit because of external factors isn't helpful if those external factors are not always present, available, etc.