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Made in au
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Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 alextroy wrote:
Following this "assumption", you can't move within 1" of an enemy model during Heroic Intervention, Pile-In or Consolidation moves. None of these explicitly or implicitly allow you to do so. Yet we all know you are allowed to do so, because that is the point of all three of them.

Indeed. This comes back to the 'missing' rules I mentioned earlier. We're clearly supposed to follow the Movement Phase rules for moving when we charge (otherwise you would be able to charge through obstacles that you can't walk through in the movement phase), and we clearly need to be able to move within 1" of enemy units in the Charge and Fight phases. That's what the '...in the Movement Phase' qualifier on the 1" rule is intended to do, but it overlooks the fact that movement can also happen in the Shooting Phase.

So the logical (at least to me) assumption is that we are intended to be able to move within 1" of enemy models when we move in the Charge and Fight phases, but that free movement in the Shooting Phase shouldn't allow you to bypass the normal rules involved with charging enemy units. Because the alternatives lead to silly places.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 03:58:43


 
   
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UK

What's more likely, that the standard movement rules apply or that the stratagem is meant to a) stop the model flying and b) allow it to move within 1" of the enemy even though neither is explicitly stated?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/25 13:37:57


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Ultramarines [800]
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california

 insaniak wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Following this "assumption", you can't move within 1" of an enemy model during Heroic Intervention, Pile-In or Consolidation moves. None of these explicitly or implicitly allow you to do so. Yet we all know you are allowed to do so, because that is the point of all three of them.

Indeed. This comes back to the 'missing' rules I mentioned earlier. We're clearly supposed to follow the Movement Phase rules for moving when we charge (otherwise you would be able to charge through obstacles that you can't walk through in the movement phase), and we clearly need to be able to move within 1" of enemy units in the Charge and Fight phases. That's what the '...in the Movement Phase' qualifier on the 1" rule is intended to do, but it overlooks the fact that movement can also happen in the Shooting Phase.

So the logical (at least to me) assumption is that we are intended to be able to move within 1" of enemy models when we move in the Charge and Fight phases, but that free movement in the Shooting Phase shouldn't allow you to bypass the normal rules involved with charging enemy units. Because the alternatives lead to silly places.

While I agree with you, RAW doesn’t. A TO would have to rule in to house rule it for correction
   
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Under the couch

Yes, we established right at the start that my interpretation wasn't RAW.

 
   
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Somewhere near Hamburg

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The same can be said for Heroic Intervention. Are you arguing that Heroic Intervention is also broken?

Not Heroic Intervention specifically, but charge moves in general are broken in the current rules, since, again, they don't refer you to the Movement Phase rules, just tell you to move with no explanation as to how to do that. This would be one of the casualties of trimming the rules down to their bare bones... We're presumably expected to just assume that the normal movement rules apply, other than as specifically stated.


The difference between that and VMT is that the charge rules explicitly tell us to move within 1" of an enemy model.
By default there is no restriction on moving within 1" of the enemy. The rules for the Movement Phase say you can't do that in the movement phase. Therefore, there is no restriction on doing so outside of the movement phase.




Correct me if I'm wrong but dont you always say that the rules are permissive and not restrictive? That'd mean if the rule does not state you can move within 1" of the enemy - you can't.

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
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Been Around the Block




The restriction of movement within 1" is specific to movement in the movement phase. Other movement abilities which allow movement in other phases - orders, psychic powers, strategems - include the wording "as if in the movement phase". This does not. So, you are not restricted in ways that are specific to the movement phase when using this rule. Seems clear cut. Very cheeky and clever. RAW it definitely allows movement within 1" and I'd play it as such. It's probably not RAI and should be FAQed.
   
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Douglasville, GA

This entire conversation just reminds me of the Pun-Pun cheese from D&D 3.5, where (by RAW) you *could* become a God at level 1. Course, no one does because it makes the game "not fun" for anyone who isn't you (and probably you too). That's why I say you kinda need to be reasonable about these kinda things. I feel like using VMT to bypass Overwatch isn't reasonable, and it seems like most people in this thread agree with this. In the end, as I said before, if you use cheeky rules lawyering to screw over your opponents, you're eventually gonna run out of people who wanna play with you.

HIWPI is either that it follows the movement phase rules and you cannot move within 1" of an enemy, or (if my opponent really wants to be able to do it), I would request to be able to fire Overwatch. Barring some sort of agreement with my opponent, I'd just call the game there and choose not to play with them again.
   
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West Virginia

insaniak's argument is flawed. insaniak is saying that there are no rules that define how to move other than "Movement Phase" rules.

This is incorrect.

There are specific rules for moving listed under "Moving" which define what it is to move a model in this game. Any game effect that enables a model to move would use these rules.

"A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.
If the datasheet for a model says it can
FLY, it can move across models and
terrain as if they were not there."

There is no mention there about not being able to move within an inch of an enemy model. To find a mention of not being able to move within an inch of enemy models you most go to the "Enemy Models" section of the rules.

"All models in the same army are
friendly models. Models controlled
by an opposing player are enemy
models. When you move a model in the
Movement phase, it may not be moved
within 1" of any enemy models."

This rule explicitly states that the only time you cannot move within an inch of an enemy model is during the Movement Phase. This is precisely why Heroic Intervention works and why charge moves allow you to get within an inch of enemy. This is also why many other game effects that allow you to move outside the Movement Phase often say something like, "move as if it were the Movement Phase" so that you cannot use that move to get within an inch of an enemy model.

The VMTs do not specify to move as if it were the movement phase so they would only be restricted by the rules that define "Moving" and not rules that are only triggered in the Movement Phase such as the part of the Enemy Models rule which specifically states moving within an inch of enemy model is only not allowed during the Movement Phase.
   
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 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
insaniak's argument is flawed. insaniak is saying that there are no rules that define how to move other than "Movement Phase" rules.

This is incorrect.

There are specific rules for moving listed under "Moving" which define what it is to move a model in this game. Any game effect that enables a model to move would use these rules.


Those specific rules that you're quoting happen to be the third and fourth paragraphs of the Movement Phase rules. They aren't even a callout box or something that you could claim is text deliberately set aside to be independent.

Both the PDF and the hardcover book have the same page layout. (although slightly different border artwork). Where are the Movement Phase rules? Page 177 of the hard cover. Where is the paragraphs that you're quoting for "Moving"? Column one, approximately middle of that page.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 16:58:22


 
   
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Livermore, Ca

Turkey.

The definition of moving does not invalidate Insaniak's argument that there are rules on how we accomplish said movement. The definition of moving tells us what it is, but not necessarily how to do it, for that we rely on the movement phase rules.

For instance, I can give us the definition of driving a car (get in car, turn key, use gas pedal, clutch and brakes, etc...) that doesn't tell me which side of the road we need to be driving on, use our turn signals before turning and don't crash into others, or.... how close to the next car we can safely drive, For that we need a rules section...

As far as I know, the only time we are told (explicitly) we can move within 1" of a model is in the charge phase and only if we are successfully charging the model in question. So why are we attempting to justify charge phase actions in the shooting phase? And don't tell me, "well the rules don't say we can't"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 17:19:06


 
   
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West Virginia

 solkan wrote:
 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
insaniak's argument is flawed. insaniak is saying that there are no rules that define how to move other than "Movement Phase" rules.

This is incorrect.

There are specific rules for moving listed under "Moving" which define what it is to move a model in this game. Any game effect that enables a model to move would use these rules.


Those specific rules that you're quoting happen to be the third and fourth paragraphs of the Movement Phase rules. They aren't even a callout box or something that you could claim is text deliberately set aside to be independent.

Both the PDF and the hardcover book have the same page layout. (although slightly different border artwork). Where are the Movement Phase rules? Page 177 of the hard cover. Where is the paragraphs that you're quoting for "Moving"? Column one, approximately middle of that page.


The issue everyone is having is that they are calling the things that happen in the Movement Phase "Movement Phase rules." The Movement Phase header(and Psychic Phase header and so on) just lists the steps you take in that phase. It then goes into the specific rules dealing with that aspect of the game such as moving or enemy models. These specific rules are used throughout the game in all of its phases it just makes the most logical sense to list them in the order you are most likely to encounter them in the game. That is why Moving is spelled out in the Movement Phase because that is most likely the first phase of the game where you will be able to move models.

Just like every time later in the rulebook it mentions "enemy models" you go back to the definition of that rule listed under Movement Phase even if you are in the Psychic Phase or Charge Phase or Fight Phase or any other phase that may exist. They do not define "enemy models" under each phase header because those rules are to be used in all of the phases of the game. Some phases may add restrictions to those rules or otherwise alter the specifics of those rules and they will define those instances specifically. Just as the enemy models rule specifically says that you cannot move within an inch of an enemy model in the movement phase.
   
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Yes, you can. Same with go recon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/24 13:10:55


 
   
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Turkey.As far as I know, the only time we are told (explicitly) we can move within 1" of a model is in the charge phase and only if we are successfully charging the model in question. So why are we attempting to justify charge phase actions in the shooting phase? And don't tell me, "well the rules don't say we can't"


Technically the charging rules specifically state that you can't move within 1" of a unit that you haven't declared a charge against, and that the first model must end its move within 1". So, we have a prohibition about moving within 1" against enemy models in units you don't declare a charge against in the Charge Phase, and a rule saying you can't move within 1" of enemy models in the movement phase.

You have general permission to move, and specific prohibitions against moving close to enemy models within the movement phase and, if you didn't declare a charge against that model's unit, in the charge phase. Those prohibitions do not apply during other phases, so you have the ability to move within 1" of enemy models in other phases. Please note that for the Fight Phase, the only movement restrictions are that you must end your move closer to the closest enemy model. There is no specific permission to be able to move within 1" of the enemy models in the fight phase, so by your assertion that there must be a statement that you can move within 1" of an enemy model, you would not be able to move within 1" of enemy models.Therefore, those prohibitions against moving within 1" are specific to the phases that they are mentioned in. Otherwise, the Fight Phase rules would keep any models not already within 1" of an enemy model from being able to move there.

   
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Somewhere near Hamburg

Okay so to come to a conclusion:

While it May ne a tfg move there are no rules to prevent that move. Since I'll be Up against that Person in a tourney soon I already have established a counter strategy against this. Namely Speed bumps since he cant jump over my Guys in the Shooting Phase and some heroic Intervention shenanigans since I can heroically intervene him even If He didnt Charge as stated in the brb FAQ.

Thanks Guys.

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
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Sounds like a good plan
   
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Douglasville, GA

I would also suggest talking to the TO about it and seeing how they rule.
   
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If the TO rules that it does not work consistent with RAW, the Tau player should be informed ahead of time to give them the opportunity to select a different relic. Really should be sorted out in advance.

Its definitely worth developing a plan with it working as written in mind. It isn't particularly powerful regardless as there are plenty of other ways to either ignore, avoid, or soak overwatch. What if it was an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask instead?
   
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california

Orbei wrote:
If the TO rules that it does not work consistent with RAW, the Tau player should be informed ahead of time to give them the opportunity to select a different relic. Really should be sorted out in advance.

Its definitely worth developing a plan with it working as written in mind. It isn't particularly powerful regardless as there are plenty of other ways to either ignore, avoid, or soak overwatch. What if it was an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask instead?

Agreed. This is something that if a tournament TO isn’t going to allow needs to be said. Not last minute “uh, yeah I know I’m a TO and this stuff should of been figured out but.. split second decision people! And no list changes”
   
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Somewhere near Hamburg

Orbei wrote:
If the TO rules that it does not work consistent with RAW, the Tau player should be informed ahead of time to give them the opportunity to select a different relic. Really should be sorted out in advance.

Its definitely worth developing a plan with it working as written in mind. It isn't particularly powerful regardless as there are plenty of other ways to either ignore, avoid, or soak overwatch. What if it was an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask instead?



Those are not necessarily in the Position to pull off a guaranteed T1 Charge. A coldstar can do that from 46" away guaranteed. I cant think of anything else that is in my face that fast.

Edit: the Guy in question is part of the TO I will have to deal with that If i'm matched Up against him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/24 18:17:39


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
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Livermore, Ca

 doctortom wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Turkey.As far as I know, the only time we are told (explicitly) we can move within 1" of a model is in the charge phase and only if we are successfully charging the model in question. So why are we attempting to justify charge phase actions in the shooting phase? And don't tell me, "well the rules don't say we can't"


Technically the charging rules specifically state that you can't move within 1" of a unit that you haven't declared a charge against, and that the first model must end its move within 1". So, we have a prohibition about moving within 1" against enemy models in units you don't declare a charge against in the Charge Phase, and a rule saying you can't move within 1" of enemy models in the movement phase.

You have general permission to move, and specific prohibitions against moving close to enemy models within the movement phase and, if you didn't declare a charge against that model's unit, in the charge phase. Those prohibitions do not apply during other phases, so you have the ability to move within 1" of enemy models in other phases. Please note that for the Fight Phase, the only movement restrictions are that you must end your move closer to the closest enemy model. There is no specific permission to be able to move within 1" of the enemy models in the fight phase, so by your assertion that there must be a statement that you can move within 1" of an enemy model, you would not be able to move within 1" of enemy models.Therefore, those prohibitions against moving within 1" are specific to the phases that they are mentioned in. Otherwise, the Fight Phase rules would keep any models not already within 1" of an enemy model from being able to move there.



Seems odd that movement in the psychic phase and shooting phase is anything goes. And movement in the movement phase and charge/fight phase both have very specific language on what you can and can not do. If you take a strict RAW perspective, you can twist whats written to make the argument. From a RAI perspective, not a chance that the tactic is legal. I don't think anyone who is for strictly RAW will ever be persuaded, but I also think they are in the minority.
   
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Seems odd that movement in the psychic phase and shooting phase is anything goes. And movement in the movement phase and charge/fight phase both have very specific language on what you can and can not do. If you take a strict RAW perspective, you can twist whats written to make the argument. From a RAI perspective, not a chance that the tactic is legal. I don't think anyone who is for strictly RAW will ever be persuaded, but I also think they are in the minority.
It's also odd that ultra short range Hand Flamers can not only hit, but automatically hit, a Hemlock Wraithfighter that is travelling at Mach 20 about a mile up in the sky. It's also odd that Plasma weapons or Cyclic Ion Blasters get scared of the dark and/or blue armoured Eldar and thus explode more often when fired at them. Yet no-one seems to ever take issue with these "oddities" despite them being the dreaded RaW.

40k is a poorly written and odd ruleset.

Needless to say I agree that asking the TO ahead of time what he thinks is the best idea.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/24 18:43:52


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Livermore, Ca

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Seems odd that movement in the psychic phase and shooting phase is anything goes. And movement in the movement phase and charge/fight phase both have very specific language on what you can and can not do. If you take a strict RAW perspective, you can twist whats written to make the argument. From a RAI perspective, not a chance that the tactic is legal. I don't think anyone who is for strictly RAW will ever be persuaded, but I also think they are in the minority.
It's also odd that ultra short range Hand Flamers can not only hit, but automatically hit, a Hemlock Wraithfighter that is travelling at Mach 20 about a mile up in the sky. It's also odd that Plasma weapons or Cyclic Ion Blasters get scared of the dark and/or blue armoured Eldar and thus explode more often when fired at them. Yet no-one seems to ever take issue with these "oddities" despite them being the dreaded RaW.

40k is a poorly written and odd ruleset.

Needless to say I agree that asking the TO ahead of time what he thinks is the best idea.


Indeed. Better written would help considerably, but GW hasn't ever done that... they are after all a company that sells miniatures, and not a competitive game (their own words).
   
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:


Seems odd that movement in the psychic phase and shooting phase is anything goes. And movement in the movement phase and charge/fight phase both have very specific language on what you can and can not do. If you take a strict RAW perspective, you can twist whats written to make the argument. From a RAI perspective, not a chance that the tactic is legal. I don't think anyone who is for strictly RAW will ever be persuaded, but I also think they are in the minority.


Yes, from a RAI standpoint it probably isn't legal, but should be clarified before any game. RAW someone could expect to be able to do it and have based his choice of relic on it. If someone's not going to let them do it they should get to decide to replace the artifact if they don't want to use it any more based on the ruling.

It's all a case of GW not throwing in "as if it's the movement phase" into the wording of the rule to cover it. I think that most people will play mostly but not completely RAW, looking at RAI when there are problems with the pure RAW (not firing assault weapons when advancing, etc). In this case RAW though does allow it because of the lack of restriction, and if you want to prohibit somebody from being able to move within 1" here you'll have to explain why it applies here when that prohibition doesn't apply in other cases (like the fight phase). Consistency of rules in different situations may make some T.O.'s allow the movement in this case.
   
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Livermore, Ca

 doctortom wrote:
It's all a case of GW not throwing in "as if it's the movement phase" into the wording of the rule to cover it.



Actually there's a far better way of covering that. Add this rule into the movement phase section... "any movement outside the movement phase follows all the rules of the movement phase plus its own rules" And then don't write anything that contradicts that, and write that type of logic into every rules section. A good technical writer who's familiar with the game can accomplish this.
   
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Douglasville, GA

Well, right off the bat we have a problem with that addendum; you can't follow the Movement Phase Rules *and* the Charge Phase Rules because the former says you cannot Move within 1" of an enemy model and the latter allows for it.

Honestly? All this goes back to being able to come to reasonable interpretations and agreements with the folks you play with. Also wanna mention that, as an Ork player, I'd be pretty happy with a Coldstar wanted to use VMT to "charge" one of my units. Still don't think its intended to be used that way, and I wouldn't want to agree to it, but if they wanna throw an HQ with a Relic into the meat grinder, I'm not gonna be stubborn about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/24 20:11:25


 
   
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's all a case of GW not throwing in "as if it's the movement phase" into the wording of the rule to cover it.



Actually there's a far better way of covering that. Add this rule into the movement phase section... "any movement outside the movement phase follows all the rules of the movement phase plus its own rules" And then don't write anything that contradicts that, and write that type of logic into every rules section. A good technical writer who's familiar with the game can accomplish this.


As long as you remember to exempt the fight phase from the 1" restriction (as well as the charge phase for units you declare a charge against).

That would be along the lines of earlier editiions saying you could only get within 1" of enemy models during the assault phase, before it was broken up into charge and fight phases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/24 20:43:20


 
   
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Livermore, Ca

 flandarz wrote:
Well, right off the bat we have a problem with that addendum; you can't follow the Movement Phase Rules *and* the Charge Phase Rules because the former says you cannot Move within 1" of an enemy model and the latter allows for it.

Honestly? All this goes back to being able to come to reasonable interpretations and agreements with the folks you play with. Also wanna mention that, as an Ork player, I'd be pretty happy with a Coldstar wanted to use VMT to "charge" one of my units. Still don't think its intended to be used that way, and I wouldn't want to agree to it, but if they wanna throw an HQ with a Relic into the meat grinder, I'm not gonna be stubborn about it.



You won't be happy when it ties up your max size loota squad or something else in your army that actually can kill stuff with shooting, or locks down your battlewagon between two pieces of terrain and leaves your 400pt warlord and retinue out of the game.


Why can't you follow the movement phase rules? I'm saying that you do the movement phase rules plus the additional bonus or restriction that VMT gives you. And if you want to tell me its because we aren't told to (RAW) then... you have to follow this bit of logic, it was pointed out by another RAW proponent... the definition of moving is in the movement phase rules, so if you choose not to use the movement phase rules, you have can't use the definition of moving and then you can't move at all. (Regardless of how you argue, no one is allowed to cherry pick rules/definitions to win a debate).
   
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Then in that case you can't move within 1" of enemy models during the fight phase.

And, you open up the debate whether the rules for the charge phase that state you can't charge units you haven't declared a charge against is overriding the movement rules or corroborating them, leaving you in a position where it's possible that the only model you can move within 1" of an enemy model is the first model you charge with.

.
And, since the shooting rules are in the shooting phase description, you can never shoot at a character with less than 10 wounds if there's another enemy unit closer to the shooter, during any phase...
   
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Livermore, Ca

 doctortom wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's all a case of GW not throwing in "as if it's the movement phase" into the wording of the rule to cover it.



Actually there's a far better way of covering that. Add this rule into the movement phase section... "any movement outside the movement phase follows all the rules of the movement phase plus its own rules" And then don't write anything that contradicts that, and write that type of logic into every rules section. A good technical writer who's familiar with the game can accomplish this.


As long as you remember to exempt the fight phase from the 1" restriction (as well as the charge phase for units you declare a charge against).

That would be along the lines of earlier editiions saying you could only get within 1" of enemy models during the assault phase, before it was broken up into charge and fight phases.


Well in my mind the fight/charge phase is an extension of the movement phase. But this is a good point, so maybe we need to add this errata "any movement outside the movement phase follows all the rules of the movement phase plus its own rules which may override previous rules if needed"
   
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Douglasville, GA

Well, by the time a Coldstar can get to my Lootas (after all the Grots bubblewrapping it are gone), they've, hopefully, already done their job. And even if they haven't, the Coldstar just saved them from getting nailed by whatever shot out the Grots. So... thanks? Only other shooting option worth it's time using the pseudo-charge is the SSAG, and that boy can be a tough cookie for a Coldstar to take out in CC. Of course, if I'm really in a bind and need to shoot with either one, Da Jump can get them out without burning a Fallback.
   
 
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