Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

eht he clans aren't so bad, although they definatly chanegd the feel of the setting. (although I'd argue those changes occured even before the clans with the Warrior trilogy) they seem positively sane compared to some of the ideas Battletech has had since

I could have done without October 3067 through April 3081...

 Ghaz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

eht he clans aren't so bad, although they definatly chanegd the feel of the setting. (although I'd argue those changes occured even before the clans with the Warrior trilogy) they seem positively sane compared to some of the ideas Battletech has had since

I could have done without October 3067 through April 3081...

yeah well even prior to the Jihad you had some really dumb stuff, like how we where told repeatedly that the small army sizes made sense because most people didn't csre who the ruler of a world was at the end of the day, until suddenly the writers decided to ignore that and go with the whole chaos march etc thing.

And then there's this Ilclan nonsense that's supposed to be coming up.. (who the hell thought it was a good idea to have a faction WIN a wargame?)

I'll reserve any opinions on what the IlClan sourcebook brings until I can actually read it.

So is it still the Battletech from the 90s with 2D6 to hit, etc, or is it the new streamlined version?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

eht he clans aren't so bad, although they definatly chanegd the feel of the setting. (although I'd argue those changes occured even before the clans with the Warrior trilogy) they seem positively sane compared to some of the ideas Battletech has had since

I could have done without October 3067 through April 3081...

yeah well even prior to the Jihad you had some really dumb stuff, like how we where told repeatedly that the small army sizes made sense because most people didn't csre who the ruler of a world was at the end of the day, until suddenly the writers decided to ignore that and go with the whole chaos march etc thing.

And then there's this Ilclan nonsense that's supposed to be coming up.. (who the hell thought it was a good idea to have a faction WIN a wargame?)

For all we know we get the ILClan and then the clans LOSE the war and are wiped out, resetting the setting and thus the wargame continues, or The Clans win and take terra and are united and you get the clan invasion mkIIC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
So is it still the Battletech from the 90s with 2D6 to hit, etc, or is it the new streamlined version?

Mostly the same, this game could really really do with a modern update to reduce the bloat.

Nurglitch wrote:
So is it still the Battletech from the 90s with 2D6 to hit, etc, or is it the new streamlined version?

The Catalyst boxes give you both styles of play.

Nurglitch wrote:
So is it still the Battletech from the 90s with 2D6 to hit, etc, or is it the new streamlined version?

You can download the current quick start rules from https://bg.battletech.com/downloads/ , but the updates to the BattleTech rules have mainly been minor changes and refinements. The 'streamlined' version of the rules designed for use with miniatures is 'Alpha Strike'.

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

The Clans were introduced to Battletech in 1990. It's been nearly 30 years. They've been part of BattleTech for longer than they haven't been.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

The Clans were introduced to Battletech in 1990. It's been nearly 30 years. They've been part of BattleTech for longer than they haven't been.

Longevity doesn’t make them any less terrible. Worse, maybe. They were a bad idea that should have been wiped out. As far as I am concerned, Battletech history stopped at the 4th Succession War.

Also, Alpha Strike is not the ‘streamlined’ Battletech you’re looking for....unless you’re looking for a dull as day old dishwater snoozefest that stripped out almost everything and replaced with ‘roll 2d6, that mech is dead...roll 2d6, that mech is dead...’

 Ghaz wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
So is it still the Battletech from the 90s with 2D6 to hit, etc, or is it the new streamlined version?

You can download the current quick start rules from https://bg.battletech.com/downloads/ , but the updates to the BattleTech rules have mainly been minor changes and refinements. The 'streamlined' version of the rules designed for use with miniatures is 'Alpha Strike'.

Okay, just had a read-through. Kinda neat how they kept it essentially Battletech.

One of my favorite things about Battletech is that while other games have risen and fallen, gone through multiple edition changes, or entirely rebooted, Battletech has stood virtually unchanged since the 90s. It's like a living fossil.

 totalfailure wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
I will likely back this to get the Mechs, although I can't let it go without adding my opinion that starting with the Clans, Battletech fiction jumped the shark and became steaming garbage.

The Clans were introduced to Battletech in 1990. It's been nearly 30 years. They've been part of BattleTech for longer than they haven't been.

Longevity doesn’t make them any less terrible. Worse, maybe. They were a bad idea that should have been wiped out. As far as I am concerned, Battletech history stopped at the 4th Succession War.

Early Battletech fiction sucked too. I can't even stomach reading the old novels because they are annoyingly bad. Stackpole has some fun chapters, like the assassin's bullet one, and the hacking Melissa Steiner's travel itinerary one, but largely that entire novel line is pretty subpar. How many times can a plucky unit be trapped on a planet facing off against a superior hostile force before using cunning, luck and some creative maneuvers to win the day? That is like half of the Battletech novel story lines right there. I am being hyperbolic but really, those novels were pretty generic made worse by the huge paragraphs of boilerplate universe description regurgitated over and over again.

Just avoid the stuff you don't like and play in the era(s) you do. I haven't looked twice at the Jihad stuff, and stick in the 3020's-3060's for most of my games. It works fine.

 totalfailure wrote:
Also, Alpha Strike is not the ‘streamlined’ Battletech you’re looking for....unless you’re looking for a dull as day old dishwater snoozefest that stripped out almost everything and replaced with ‘roll 2d6, that mech is dead...roll 2d6, that mech is dead...’

So, like most contemporary skirmish games then? If I fail my armor save I don't care which organs were punctured by the bullet, I just need to know if Guardsman Joe can return fire. Likewise, if I want to run a Battletech game in under a day with more than 12 units on the table Alphastrike is pretty great at satisfying that desire.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


So, like most contemporary skirmish games then? If I fail my armor save I don't care which organs were punctured by the bullet, I just need to know if Guardsman Joe can return fire. Likewise, if I want to run a Battletech game in under a day with more than 12 units on the table Alphastrike is pretty great at satisfying that desire.

Exactly the point. It becomes a homogenized, fill in the blank snoozefest, that could be any other game out there. It lost any feel at all of Battletech; you could just as well be shooting space marines or orcs, as opposed to Mechs. The biggest Battletech game I ever played in featured around 60 Mechs. It wasn't over in an hour, to be sure. But it wasn't 30 minutes of empty filler, like Alpha Strike.

 totalfailure wrote:
As far as I am concerned, Battletech history stopped at the 4th Succession War.

Ah, ok. So you're one of those players.

Gotcha...

 totalfailure wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


So, like most contemporary skirmish games then? If I fail my armor save I don't care which organs were punctured by the bullet, I just need to know if Guardsman Joe can return fire. Likewise, if I want to run a Battletech game in under a day with more than 12 units on the table Alphastrike is pretty great at satisfying that desire.

Exactly the point. It becomes a homogenized, fill in the blank snoozefest, that could be any other game out there.It lost any feel at all of Battletech; you could just as well be shooting space marines or orcs, as opposed to Mechs.

In my experience people more accustomed to contemporary rule sets find the classic version of Battletech to be a snoozefest filled with laborious record keeping. Anything that speeds up the pace of the game and gets more action going is considered a positive. I personally disagree with you that Alphastrike is generic and bland. It is different than classic Battletech but that is the point.

 totalfailure wrote:
The biggest Battletech game I ever played in featured around 60 Mechs. It wasn't over in an hour, to be sure. But it wasn't 30 minutes of empty filler, like Alpha Strike.

Most people don't want to devote 6-8 hours to resolve a company on company engagement.

And what is wrong with a 30 minute game? I mean I love me some Battletech and will happily devote an entire weekend to playing, but I have lost count of how many Saturday afternoon games were called due to time without any proper resolution. Battletech is simply not a fast or streamlined game - certainly that is part of its charm for some, but given Battletech's marginal commercial success since FASA closed it is a niche segment of the gaming population that wants to play a game as dense as Battletech.

Battletech in fairness is more about lance on lance engament. this isn't a problem persay but when every battletech novel written since 1991 features regiments clashing.. it does have a poor effect of the advertising not matching the gameplay.
not that battletech is alone i that issue *looks at table top space Marines vs novel space marines as the most obvious example*

While I sold off my collection a year or two ago, I actually invented my own rather fun version of Battletech that my buddies and I played. It wasn't the ancient mess of classic Battletech, and it wasn't the overly streamlined Alpha Strike - but sat generally in the center. It took all of the "elements" you had in classic battletech but made them faster, easier, and just as fun.

Battletech went waaaay too far with Alphastrike, in my opinion. They're covering the extreme ends of the spectrum when they could really use a solid, modern, middle-ground product (with options to expand it to near the depth of the classic game, but with more modern mechanics). Watching Battletech is like watching a super slow motion trainwreck...but it never ends.

I like the IP, miss reading the fun novels, etc. But for the longest time they had atrocious models (and no one can come in here and defend their miniatures even the Iron Wind stuff was garbage once we left the 90's). The game was clunky and messy. However, the IP and the idea of the game were soooo well suited to modern tech/etc.

Bigger, sexier, Neoprene Battletech mats? They should have been all over that crazy instantly. Get their hands on a proper plastic miniature producer and have quality modern miniatures with some modular/optional arms..even poseable mechs, etc. The IP is so ripe for someone to take it over and really make it into something modern, new, and exciting. I don't think you'll catch the Warhammer crowd, but it's just a bizarre fossil as someone mentioned above. They finally have good art direction, and their latest mechs have been solid...even if still in a not-ideal material. They're creeping slowly toward a quality line of mechs.

The game itself became a crazy bloatfest of hundred(s?) of random PDFs, a too-far-encompassing story line, waaaaay too many years covered, and thousands upon thousands of mechs - including self-designed mechs. All of that stuff is just too much and dilutes the entire thing. Wish they had really concentrated on quality over quantity. This is keeping them slowly creeping in that direction which is nice.

If people don't like the super simplicity of Alpha Strike, then Mech Attack by Armor grid games is probably the best happy medium between Battletech and Alpha Strike there is. Definite weapons differences, quick heat resolution, and granular damage tracking (a lot like Crimson Skies where you check off boxes in different shapes depending on weapon type- I never got much into BT to know if the damage tracking is similar there).


I just want some sexy modern models. Battletech mechs on one hand are classic nostalgia, but on the other hand are woefully behind what can be done nowadays. Even CAV from Reaper has better models, even if I don't like the new Bones stuff.

A preview of the new Mad Cat...

Our big announcement yesterday put the redesigned Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) front and center. Take a closer look at this iconic ‘Mech in this stunning 360-degree video! Here’s BattleTech Art Director Anthony Scroggins with his Designer’s Notes about how he approached refining the look of a fan favorite:

Anthony Scroggins wrote:I knew redesigning Clan mechs was an eventuality, we’d talked about it internally a lot, and it’s a guarantee that the Timber Wolf would be first up. So, when I was assigned illustrating the cover to Blaine Pardoe’s novel ‘Forever Faithful’, featuring the Timby front and center, I knew I had to give it a serious new look then and there.

That paid off, as just months later we launched the Clan project, dwarfing the previous box project in scale, and from there the Timber Wolf would only need some easy tweaking to cross the finish line.

Over the history of Clans in BattleTech we’ve had plenty of great iterations for this mech, so I didn’t feel compelled to include too many details out of nowhere, it was more a task of picking and choosing among several eras of art. This included TRO illustrations, book covers, various miniatures, videogames (mw4 particularly) and even large scale toys. I wanted a design that satisfied the old, current, and future. It wouldn’t be the best retro, or the best modern, but it would enjoy a classic feeling with modern flairs.

Some of my specific intentions however, were properly showing the canon prime weapons load out (fun fact, this has arguably never been done before), making the torso a little less square, bringing back the old tube arms after an era of boxy ones without them looking flimsy, maintaining the classic slick nose shape, and finally giving it a sturdy overall bulk without killing the nimble look of the old source art.

I don’t think there’s a possible ‘perfect’ look for the Timber Wolf, but I’m glad to have reinvisioned one of the most iconic faces of BattleTech.

https://bg.battletech.com/news/designers-notes-timber-wolf-mad-cat/

 Elbows wrote:
While I sold off my collection a year or two ago, I actually invented my own rather fun version of Battletech that my buddies and I played. It wasn't the ancient mess of classic Battletech, and it wasn't the overly streamlined Alpha Strike - but sat generally in the center. It took all of the "elements" you had in classic battletech but made them faster, easier, and just as fun.

Battletech went waaaay too far with Alphastrike, in my opinion. They're covering the extreme ends of the spectrum when they could really use a solid, modern, middle-ground product (with options to expand it to near the depth of the classic game, but with more modern mechanics). Watching Battletech is like watching a super slow motion trainwreck...but it never ends.

I like the IP, miss reading the fun novels, etc. But for the longest time they had atrocious models (and no one can come in here and defend their miniatures even the Iron Wind stuff was garbage once we left the 90's). The game was clunky and messy. However, the IP and the idea of the game were soooo well suited to modern tech/etc.

Bigger, sexier, Neoprene Battletech mats? They should have been all over that crazy instantly. Get their hands on a proper plastic miniature producer and have quality modern miniatures with some modular/optional arms..even poseable mechs, etc. The IP is so ripe for someone to take it over and really make it into something modern, new, and exciting. I don't think you'll catch the Warhammer crowd, but it's just a bizarre fossil as someone mentioned above. They finally have good art direction, and their latest mechs have been solid...even if still in a not-ideal material. They're creeping slowly toward a quality line of mechs.

The game itself became a crazy bloatfest of hundred(s?) of random PDFs, a too-far-encompassing story line, waaaaay too many years covered, and thousands upon thousands of mechs - including self-designed mechs. All of that stuff is just too much and dilutes the entire thing. Wish they had really concentrated on quality over quantity. This is keeping them slowly creeping in that direction which is nice.

90% of those pdfs are mostly background fluff with a handful of optional rules tossed in. which moves to your next bit, the story. Now keep in mind I say this as someone who thought the story moved to fast as one of my primary reasons I no longer follow battletech as passionately. but the fan base largely LIKES the encompassing story. As for the IP mrophing into something "new and exciting" yeah no thanks. wizkids already tried that with MWDA. Battletechs been around for 30+ years a massive change is proably a bad idea. sometimes it's best to know your niche and stick with it. a bird in hand and all that.

Here's something to keep in mind about said Niche... it's not a minis game Minis are for battletech fans a side intreast at best. it's not a major part of the franchise. the game itself and the fluff are what drives it's fanbase.

And all those additional PDFs etc are how the game makes it's money, because they don't rewrite the rules every 3 years or so. you can literally buy a battletech boxed set and never make another purchase and be good. all the fancy wizbang options, are just that. Options. Sit down with someone and say "yeah let's keep to 3025 tech" is seen as a completely legit thing.

Sure, but that's your opinion - just as valid as mine.

You speak of the Battletech fanbase...well I'm part of that fan base, and I don't like the way Battletech plays, nor the way they promote or sell the IP. I found the handful of PDFs I tried to be lazily written with poor art, etc. I spent a long time creating my own version of Battletech just so I could enjoy the base story and the mechs (though I ended up selling the mechs because I was so unimpressed with the quality).





You don't spend hours and hours writing a rulebook and creating large mech collections for something you don't like or you're not a fan of. Also, you mentioned the usual ":Well how good do the mechs have to be..." kind of thing which is an absolute cop out. It is absolutely a miniatures game, and the Battletech players deserve better. The new (non-existent) starter and the upcoming Clan stuff is the first time they've had decent looking mechs...ever. So that's a plus.

Also, at no point did I say we should just make Battletech into a clix game again. There is more than enough room to make Battletech into a much more modern and palatable system which can maintain all the clunky "depth" of the original game. There's just, as witnessed by your post, way too much "head in the sand" kind of mentality over this thing. It's not a big deal - people will keep playing Battletech, but it's pretty silly to not wish a product was better.

This would make General Aleksandr Kerensky a happy man!...

Maybe what we need is what happened to another classic, Star Fleet Battles. That game became a bloated nightmare. The Federation Commander Klingon/Romulan Border games were able to keep the essence of SFB, without becoming watered down slop like Alpha Strike. Any resemblance between Battletech and Alpha Strike is purely accidental.

It'll be interesting to see how they redo the Stalker.

Nevermind, I looked it up. Additionally, the Japanese Battletech designs are phenomenal.

It's a tricky mix, because when I think of Battletech, I think of long slugging matches, with mechs limbs blown off, components failing, and the mechs gradually degrading, or inexplicably blowing up because of absurd luck. Simulating that without the originals numerous rolls for each hit, and heavy record keeping seems problematic if you also want multiple mechs in a game.

Theoretically, you could build it around Lance on Lance combat, and have each mech with some huge plastic command deck interface, like adeptus titanicus or many roleplaying style board games. I don't know if that would be better though.

The alternative is a more heavy Alpha strike, because atm, it does feel hollow, which is a shame. My boys love it, and it's very simple to pick up. I think even a more complicated critical hit table, with locations or individual weapons destroyed could satisfy that itch.

BrianDavion wrote:
Here's something to keep in mind about said Niche... it's not a minis game Minis are for battletech fans a side intreast at best. it's not a major part of the franchise. the game itself and the fluff are what drives it's fanbase.

That may have been true in 1984 when Battledroids (1st ed. Battletech) released as a stand alone box set, but you can't look at the old Ral Partha catalog filled with hundreds of models, and then Iron Wind Metals' catalog which added hundreds of additional models, and say Battletech isn't a minis game.

It absolutely is a minis game, it just isn't marketed like one. Big difference. The failure of the model line is its age and the lack of support that it receives from Catalyst (and prior FanPro, and FASA). The reason why there aren't more plastic miniatures available for sale is because of the Ral Partha/IWM connection, and their license to produce models for Battletech - something Catalyst doesn't have rights to as far as I know.

The minis have been a part of Battletech from day one (even Battledroids had plastic models included) and the glut of Technical Readouts, map sheets and other products which cater to miniature use should indicate just how much of a miniatures game Battletech actually is.

The problem is that Battletech tries to be too many things at once, both a miniatures game and a "board game" that allows people to use simple chits or paper markers in place of models. Those rules should have been written out of the game in 1992 with the release of 3rd edition (the first starter box with all plastic models and no paper standees)- but they were kept in and Battletech has been split ever since. The need to make the game work for people who refused to play with models kept the game from really taking off as a minis game, and it has clomped along ever since with an asterisk next to its name.

You touch on another issue:

BrianDavion wrote:
you can literally buy a battletech boxed set and never make another purchase

People seemingly take glee in the frugality Battletech offers and then lament that more stuff isn't made. No gak! People aren't spending money!

But the "one and done" purchase mindset that makes it easy getting people interested in starting Battletech also prevents it from growing and doing well.

But not a minis game? Please! FASA bought Ral Partha in the late 90's and it wasn't for their range of Shadowrun minis.

Battletech is a Mini's optional game, but it's not a mini's game. the minis are used, essentially as markers. And people do buy plenty of Btech stuff (the games been going on for 30 years) but many of these books are soruce material. campaign rules etc. it's a verry very differant busniess model from say 40k which is minis driven.

Speaking of stuff to buy the house Arano book is out

It has miniatures. Doesn't make it a miniatures game.

D&D has miniatures. Pathfinder has miniatures. I doubt a single one of them is necessary to play either game.

Some people require a certain aesthetic before they'll play a game. Can you imagine playing 40k with standee marines? Maybe back in 2nd edition. If the mechs look good, and probably the best they ever have, it might broaden the appeal of the game.

Nurglitch wrote:
Some people require a certain aesthetic before they'll play a game. Can you imagine playing 40k with standee marines? Maybe back in 2nd edition. If the mechs look good, and probably the best they ever have, it might broaden the appeal of the game.

that's absolutely the case. Back when there was a Battletech demo team, to get on it it was required that you had painted minis for just that reason. but Minis are not ESSENTIAL to play. they're simply a "nice to have"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It has miniatures. Doesn't make it a miniatures game.

D&D has miniatures. Pathfinder has miniatures. I doubt a single one of them is necessary to play either game.

cou;dn't have put it better myself.