Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, provided someone is willing to put the work in.

I have always found this to be a bit of a weird subject. I've never quite understood the need to have a company continue with a game for people to be able to play it. It's even more strange in the past ten or so years. Once you own it, you don't need someone else to allow you to continue using it, even if it takes a little more effort to be able to continue with it.

Sure, having the game support and pushed with advertising makes it easier to get new players into buying the game, but once you own the game and miniatures, why does it matter that a company is no longer pushing that game. You own it, just use it.

It was more of an issue way back when, as now we have ebay, trading groups and other access to 2nd hand miniatures now. Not to mention a lot more easier access to a million and one alternative models.

I've just never seen the point of dropping games that you like just because a company tells you it's time to change (and refill their banks) or because that's what others are doing. I've only ever changed games when I've really felt like the change would be fun. I think almost every game I've played has been with outdated versions or been classed as a dead game.

I've been playing the original AoS ruleset since the 2nd edition came out and have only stopped since we have decided to finish off some old WFB projects and wanted to try 8th edition (which I never got to play when it was current)

I've been playing Epic 3rd edition (or at least failing at getting everything painted for it!) since it came out, and most people classed that as a dead game from the day of release!

I got in to WFB when 4th edition came out but I stuck with it until I think 7th was the next edition that I brought.

 Mallo wrote:
I have always found this to be a bit of a weird subject. I've never quite understood the need to have a company continue with a game for people to be able to play it. It's even more strange in the past ten or so years. Once you own it, you don't need someone else to allow you to continue using it, even if it takes a little more effort to be able to continue with it.

I think there's a few aspects:
1) Once a game is no longer produced by the parent company getting hold of the models becomes increasingly difficult. Plus what you get hold of is likely going to need to be paint stripped and might even have been put together poorly so its not like getting new models. This makes it more of a challenge, esp if the old models weren't in metal (that being the most easy to clean off old paint). It's even harder when you try to get anyone new into the game because they face an up hill battle of increased costs to get hold of models and the chances that some might never appear on ebay or only do so at very inflated prices.

2) If you accept point 1 then you might counter and say "hey you don't have to use the official models, use proxies from other games." That is a valid approach, however then the only part of the original game you're really using is the rules alone, the models and the visual identity of a game is part of the package to many people. At which point many will go "Well why dont' we just play Kings of War instead of Warriors of the Night because we are using the Kings of War models anyway and WotN is old and dead."

3) People like new things. If you look at people who "have everything" you can oft see them complain that GW doesn't release new models for their army. Ergo they've run out of new things to add and the only way is to just add more of the same and build niche army lists. So they have less of the building and painting side of the hobby to engage in directly with their chosen army. You can see this pattern repeated a lot through GW armies that don't see many updates (though to complicate the pattern it also tends to match with that army getting no rules updates for a long while too - at least historically).

4) Marketing. Like it or not people are fickle and the modern world throws a LOT of media at us. In fact even in the niche that is wargaming we are bombarded all day every day with marketing for new games new models new rules. And that's just the wargame; there's also loads of other hobbies and interests fighting for your money. The simple thing is with no parent company putting out that material and driving up your interest levels, other companies get their foot in the door and tempt you to something else that is new and shiny. You can see this same pattern with current companies too where they don't put out much marketing or go through a long quiet phase. They instantly start to lose the war of attrition for their fans attention.

5) Now in direct counter to point 4, if the game is lucky the community might replace the marketing for them. This is a wildcard and most times never happens, but sometimes can. Bloodbowl managed to survive with his; a very strong core of gamers kept it going and managed to keep it alive. But it takes a lot of effort and dedication, even more so to grow the game to a viable market to generate tournaments, events and interaction beyond one or two local clubs.
Now the internet and Kickstarter also helped because new companies stepped in to make 3rd party armies - there was basically a huge amount of love for the game that managed to keep it alive - however even KS can backfire and many companies burn out on a single KS even if they manage to deliver.

For a lot of people the hobby really is something they buy and if a given game drips below a critical mass of players and stores don't want to stock it any more and people aren't really playing then the hobby they purchased is not longer functioning as intended.

I think it's a terrible way to go, but that's just me.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Yes, provided someone is willing to put the work in.

Yep. I've seen it happen, done it myself in one case, and seen it not happen (with WFB->AoS, for example) more than once.

Someone has to push the product.

It also needs a receptive local group, and it's entirely possible to burn your credibility trying to push for a gak game to come back.

I actually prefer "Dead" games, but that's because I love to tinker and toy with the rules, setting, army lists, etc. There is no one left around to say "You can't do that! That's not official!"

Of course, I have enough stuff for two factions and we do a host/rotation method so I get to choose the game every once in a while too. Since it is my turn to host the game, you get to play <Insert Dead/Indie Game> .... tee hee, tee hee.

My thoughts on "Dead" games are here if you want more:
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/10/random-that-is-not-dead-which-can.html

I think one of the issues of 'dead' games is that for a lot of us the real core of our hobby is shopping for the new shiney thing (even if we tell ourselves its gaming, or building or even collecting)

no more company support (or even company at all) means no more new shiney toys and there's only so long the old existing stuff can sustain your interest especially as the stuff you haven't bought already is likely to be the stuff you were less interested in owing anyway whether it's because it doesn't look as good, isn't as good in the game, is hard to build, in the wrong material or whatever

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think one of the issues of 'dead' games is that for a lot of us the real core of our hobby is shopping for the new shiney thing (even if we tell ourselves its gaming, or building or even collecting)

no more company support (or even company at all) means no more new shiney toys and there's only so long the old existing stuff can sustain your interest especially as the stuff you haven't bought already is likely to be the stuff you were less interested in owing anyway whether it's because it doesn't look as good, isn't as good in the game, is hard to build, in the wrong material or whatever

can confirm. I'm getting into Battletech thanks to the new starter sets and the upcoming Kickstarter. When it was "try to track down some iron winds metal models" I was like, eh maybe someday. But now that it's "Check these new sweet plastic sculpts!" I've dropped money like nothing. It doesn't help that the box sets sell out so fast that you don't have time to consider the purchase or it's gone for 6 months.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think one of the issues of 'dead' games is that for a lot of us the real core of our hobby is shopping for the new shiney thing (even if we tell ourselves its gaming, or building or even collecting)

no more company support (or even company at all) means no more new shiney toys and there's only so long the old existing stuff can sustain your interest especially as the stuff you haven't bought already is likely to be the stuff you were less interested in owing anyway whether it's because it doesn't look as good, isn't as good in the game, is hard to build, in the wrong material or whatever

This very much happens, heck you can see it with games like 40K and AoS as well as in companies like Spartan Games. When the company paid no attention to armies/games they would dwindle in popularity steadily. No new shiny model meant all those who had collected their armies were left twiddling fingers or buying stuff they'd already got before - bulking out the army but more going through the motions than getting something new and shiny.

I think PP is experiencing this a bit too at present because of the way MKIII did theme lists; by restricting some armies heavily into themes it meant once you'd built a themed list you didn't have as much incentive to add "just one more model". It was more that you'd have to add a whole bunch for a different theme. So even if there are new things, if they aren't things your "army" can make use of then even though the game isn't ignored the player feels it.

Another thing that will help restart a game is a "White Knight" of the game.. When Privateer press did everything possible to kill their game.. Disbanding Press Gangers and Releasing a new version of the game that was sub par.
The game really took a kick in the pants with players.. But we have a guy in the area that is an Ex PG that never gave up on them and he still holds regular games and Tournaments, They are not seeing the numbers they once had, but he is helping
pull it from the grave.

balmong7 wrote:
When it was "try to track down some iron winds metal models" I was like, eh maybe someday.

Track down? Like go to Iron Wind Metals site and add the mechs you want to the shopping cart and have them sent to your door?

I can see when it's scouring the second hand market, but battletech never actually went out of production and you could always get endless rulebooks and miniatures with the click of a mouse (or later, the touch of a screen).

I get it though, hype is real when it's news and a kickstarter. And hopefully the plastic models outdo past starter sets.

There's really never been any trouble tracking down BT minis. Sure, RP bit the big one, but IWM have had the metal moulds for aaaaaages. Hell, I still have some of the old "unseen" designs (mostly the dougram/crusher Joe designs - there were more of these than macross ones, but they ALL went away when HG had a cry about it. HG never even had the rights to Dougram or CJ.)

If you meant PLASTICS, then yeah, that's an issue but it shouldn't be. Working with metal uses the same skills as kitbashing plastics (glues are different) and you find that modding a plastic model that you thought was previously hard becomes almost childishly easy.

 frozenwastes wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
When it was "try to track down some iron winds metal models" I was like, eh maybe someday.

Track down? Like go to Iron Wind Metals site and add the mechs you want to the shopping cart and have them sent to your door?

I can see when it's scouring the second hand market, but battletech never actually went out of production and you could always get endless rulebooks and miniatures with the click of a mouse (or later, the touch of a screen).

I get it though, hype is real when it's news and a Kickstarter. And hopefully the plastic models outdo past starter sets.

My issue with Battletech fell heavily on the side of "There are no starter boxes available, and no easy bundles for getting into the game." I went onto the IWM website once and just the sheer number of models available overwhelmed me as someone who has no idea how to play the game. There so many different mechs, vehicles, and infantry, and I had no idea what ones I should buy or needed to buy.

I'm also talking like 3 years ago before the current beginner box and starter box came out. Now I actually own the stuff and just need to find an opponent.

Also it depends on what you mean by "die". In the UK we tend to be more games club orientated than game store (although obviously those things can overlap). What this mindset tends to overlook are the "basement players" who are just getting on with their thing with their mates and have no interest in going and engaging with the wider community.

To give an example, WM/H took a bit of a downturn at the launch of Mk3. As a result the player base at out local gaming clubs dried up a little so those who were left migrated into the central London meta and abandoned the clubs out our way. Our gaming group of mates love WM/H and just kept on playing at our houses and have now grown our group to about 8 players, meeting most weekends to get games in. But apart from me, none of the other players have any interest in going to clubs or tournaments. So is the WM/H "dead" in our area? Depends on who you ask.

From the admittedly limited experience of my local clubs its a fairly solid No

It usually starts with losing a player or two to real life circumstances, then another few because the prior people aren't coming, then the remaining folks just becoming no shows as its unlikely they'll get a game

40k is a slight exception put that's usually new folks starting up rather than players returning

balmong7 wrote:
My issue with Battletech fell heavily on the side of "There are no starter boxes available, and no easy bundles for getting into the game." I went onto the IWM website once and just the sheer number of models available overwhelmed me as someone who has no idea how to play the game. There so many different mechs, vehicles, and infantry, and I had no idea what ones I should buy or needed to buy.

Yeah, they really did a terrible job advising new players for a few years. Technically there were posts on CGL's website about where to start, but they were more concerned about what rules to get rather than what mechs. They often did have sample lances or whatever, but they did a bad job of just saying "get the following mechs to start" and just listing 4 for some simple 2 vs 2 3025 battles.

I'm also talking like 3 years ago before the current beginner box and starter box came out. Now I actually own the stuff and just need to find an opponent.

The local group here was built up by running simple 3025 everyone controls a mech or two games at every single board game convention and club night. They ran it like a board game rather than a miniature wargame and the person running it brought all the painted miniatures and they avoided the more advanced stuff and kept to basic 3025 stuff and gave people the choice of risking heat issues. Once you add in all the clan and advanced tech of later years it can be unmanageable to demo for new players.