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Formations are a nice gimmick and I like them up to a point

And I don't know were this archetype thinking about factions come from

The one thing a lot of people consider the most negative point about KoW that there are no unique list building options per faction

You can make all kind of lists work with each of them, as an infantry/monster/shooty/melee/cavalry list will work as good with elves, dwarfs, undead, as with any other faction

And the main advantage is that they still play different with each faction.

While there could be some improvements be made for some factions regarding list building, I don't see a big problem here or that 2 factions are too similar

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Schmendrick wrote:

Maybe the Formations could do the trick here to give each army their different flavors? that and having spell restrictions for certain armies? or artefact restrictions for alignments (though i am not a fan of the latter because i would like to keep the list building as simple as possible)?

So the GW approach of just piling more rules on top?
The lack of capter tactics, spell lores and magical item lists per army is part of why I like KoW. No thank you.

actually you are right when I am thinking about this again. i am also a strong supporter of the "clear and simple" approach that KoW took so far and this *would* move it in the mentioned GW direction.

 Illumini wrote:
Varangur infantry lists? Where so you see those? Fallen, mounted sons, dire fangs and monsters is Varangur. I am currently trying to make infantry Varangur work, and that is a tough cookie.
(....)
Orks have cost efficient infantry and are extremely melee heavy, again a very different feel from the two others IMO.

Maybe that's just the guy in my group that uses his old Warriors of Chaos as a bloodsworn/sons-on-foot/thrall list supplemented by a few fallen and the occasional chimera. This list (which I've faced quite a few times until he sold his warriors of chaos) plays remarkably like my brother;s orc army.

On formations: I don't think formations are needed at the start of 3rd edition. I think they are a tool to mid-edition buff for a year a few units that don't see play that often.

 kodos wrote:
(....)
And I don't know were this archetype thinking about factions come from

The one thing a lot of people consider the most negative point about KoW that there are no unique list building options per faction

You can make all kind of lists work with each of them, as an infantry/monster/shooty/melee/cavalry list will work as good with elves, dwarfs, undead, as with any other faction

And the main advantage is that they still play different with each faction.

While there could be some improvements be made for some factions regarding list building, I don't see a big problem here or that 2 factions are too similar

I think I disagree on this one here. If most armies can be played more or less the same; the game might become stale quickly.

There is a difference between similar in list building and similar in playing

An Undead Infantry list is built similar to an Elves Infantry list, but plays different

As just because the list looks similar it doesn't mean they play similar.

 kodos wrote:
There is a difference between similar in list building and similar in playing

An Undead Infantry list is built similar to an Elves Infantry list, but plays different

As just because the list looks similar it doesn't mean they play similar.

That is very true. I think it is due to units playing based on what they are armed with, and all races have near enough the same weapons tech, spear, hand weapon, shield, great weapon, bow, etc. This is what makes KoW for me such a good replacement for WFB. The weapons make the units role very determined. Which mirrors real life conflict for the time period of rank and file it is inspired by.

Stats play a role for sure, but that is mainly to show skill and fortitude.

Some new information on the 3rd edition:
https://manticblog.com/2019/08/06/kings-of-war-third-edition-the-rulebook/?fbclid=IwAR1mwfoOEKmGIHYEfB3cUCHTU5_VtqDjxXOK9mfMPrSCSbdUHJrhFI-gVaA

No kingdoms of men in the initial release them. Hm.

 amazingturtles wrote:
No kingdoms of men in the initial release them. Hm.

Good catch, I missed that.
It appears that Mantic are really drawing a line between armies that they make mini's for and armies that you need to find something for.

That statline layout is atrocious.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
That statline layout is atrocious.

Agreed. That is just adding some design to add some design. Circles are cool and all, but the statline is much less readable.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
That statline layout is atrocious.

Personally, I do not mind, I may even like the point that the stats shared by different formations of the same unit type are in one place and the varied stats in another. It is easier to check how the unit is improved e.g. when going from a troop to a regiment. I also think it is fine for a fancier presentation in the book while when one picks the unit in AB and prints the roster I expect to have all the stats in one line as it has been so far. For sure, all the stats in one line are easier to follow when one checks opponent's roster.

One thing I noted in the units description - the unit keeps its nonimal US even when Nimble, as it was prior to CoK2019.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
That statline layout is atrocious.

It really is, I can't for the life of me understand how people like it. There is no consistent design to it, circles with numbers in them, and then stat lines... looks too jumbled up.

 stonehorse wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
That statline layout is atrocious.

It really is, I can't for the life of me understand how people like it. There is no consistent design to it, circles with numbers in them, and then stat lines... looks too jumbled up.

Here's hoping / assuming EasyArmy will keep the in-line stats

Couple other notes: They've added at least one Height level (infantry are 2, cav/large infantry are 3) and legions are now US 4. Both changes make sense to me, Height 0 stuff felt like an after thought that had to push the scale down 1 level.

EDIT: "Ninaja'd" by Al Quds like 5 hours ago

 DarkBlack wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
No kingdoms of men in the initial release them. Hm.

Good catch, I missed that.
It appears that Mantic are really drawing a line between armies that they make mini's for and armies that you need to find something for.

Yeah, i wish i could say that i'm surprised. At least it's not a complete drop of support?

As for the statline, i like that there's more information, but the look is definitely muddled. The old look led the eye along in a clear direction, this jumps around a bit too much.

 amazingturtles wrote:
No kingdoms of men in the initial release them. Hm.

this stinks indeed. But i'll have to wait for six weeks playing my undead, I'd say. This is not that much of a problem. I really hope the army will get some love in the army composition, though.

Other than that, I'm suprised that so little things have changed. Infantry still have 10/12/25 attacks; large infantry 9/18. Unit strength more or less what it was, no big changes in the stats we see.
The point costs are not that much off from the current point costs. Of course, I know this is still in-progress and maybe a lot will still change, but the army lists will not change that much, I'd guess.

That said, I'm not bothered too much by the new stat layout, though i'm also not a big fan. If the spitters/fleabag sniffs are irregular, this should be explained a lot better. But then again, maybe the asteriks in the army pages means something entirely different or the army composition rules are different.

3rd Edition starter set got announced and looks pretty cool:

Inside the box, you’ll find:

NORTHERN ALLIANCE

20 Hard Plastic Clansmen*
20 Hard Plastic Pack Hunters*
3 PVC Plastic Snow Trolls
PVC Plastic Ice Kin Master Hunter
NIGHTSTALKERS

20 Hard Plastic Scarecrows**
20 Hard Plastic Spectres**
3 PVC Plastic Butchers
PVC Plastic Horror

* these can be built as Clansmen or Pack Hunters
** these can be built as Scarecrows or Spectres

It'll have a paperback version of the rulebook as well.

Also an image for the Northern Alliance miniatures:

Al Quds wrote:
Some new information on the 3rd edition:
https://manticblog.com/2019/08/06/kings-of-war-third-edition-the-rulebook/?fbclid=IwAR1mwfoOEKmGIHYEfB3cUCHTU5_VtqDjxXOK9mfMPrSCSbdUHJrhFI-gVaA

Best news, IMNSHO, was:

“But where is [x] army? Fret not dear reader. Armies of Pannithor (the Third Edition equivalent of Uncharted Empires) will be released just six weeks after the launch of Third Edition. So, you’ve got time to digest the new rules before cracking on with stuff like Ratkin. We’ll be covering the armies included in this supplement in a future blog.”

The rumor that they would drop the non-Mantic produced Armies had me very, very worried…

Valete,

JohnS

Damn those Northern Alliance Minis look good...ahhhhh. I can't afford to get ANOTHER game....but I'm super tempted by this.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
That statline layout is atrocious.

I actually quite like it.... maybe it makes it easier to get the number on first glance?

No kingdoms of men in the initial release them. Hm.

It appears that Mantic are really drawing a line between armies that they make mini's for and armies that you need to find something for.

I do not find this surprising as they do not produce own models. I am happy that they will continue to support those armies nonetheless and am very grateful that they do! And I look forward to the other book.

The ONLY thing I dislike is that I now would have to order TWO times, one to get the initial Rulebook and one time for that other book!
Maybe I wait until the second one is released.

Ah yes, and then ANOTHER shipment for the RPG...


I noticed the fact they now have those KEYWORDS, and look forward to how this will interact with the RPG!


The only thing I DISLIKE so far is their announcement that came out today about the TITANS (https://manticblog.com/2019/08/08/kings-of-war-third-edition-titans/)

Yeah, they might look cool, but I hope this will not get GW style... remember those biiiig WHFB miniatures towards the end ("End Times")?
They look cool, but sooooo clumsly to transport and store! I am playing a *miniature* game in 28mm for a reason... I hope they won't get to be "must haves" in the army...

 Schmendrick wrote:

Yeah, they might look cool, but I hope this will not get GW style... remember those biiiig WHFB miniatures towards the end ("End Times")?
They look cool, but sooooo clumsly to transport and store! I am playing a *miniature* game in 28mm for a reason... I hope they won't get to be "must haves" in the army...

They'll be most likely "must have", because I expect them to be combining toughness, damage dealing and a fair "base footprint" on the board (akind to why Horde of Monstruous Infantry rocks in current game).

I think most people have difficulties to admit Mantic Games just does the same thing than other companies on the market - including GW. However, Mantic fanbase has always been very entitled to believe that as not true. Which is why Mantic Games is always being cautious not to get their fanbase angry. Remember the Vanguard drama at the beginning, when Mantic tried to put the cards with the profiles only with the miniatures they sold and backpedaled quite fast after that ? That's what I'm talking about.

But yeah, on long term, I expect Mantic Games to slowly reduce support for their armies without Mantic miniatures, gently, so that their fanbase gradually get used to the new standard, until it becomes natural to play only Mantic miniatures armies.

Fans are just not ready to hear that yet.

The hype train influence is strong, but I'm starting to see a few things that could hold me back.
I get the "update" aspect, but profile layout change to make it worst makes no sense. Also, there appears to be more special rules and probably more layers added. We'll see how that plays out, but the simple rules aspect of KoW is their strength. I hope that is kept.
Titan thing is uninteresting. Never liked action-figures type models in miniature games.
Also, since Vanguard, it appears the "affordable" motto seems less present. Starter set is considerably more expensive than the 2nd ed equivalent, which is not that cool. Still decent for content but the general price hike always make things not so appealing.
Expanded lore and Northern Alliance seems very cool though. Waiting for more info!

hey'll be most likely "must have", because I expect them to be combining toughness, damage dealing and a fair "base footprint" on the board (akind to why Horde of Monstruous Infantry rocks in current game).

I think most people have difficulties to admit Mantic Games just does the same thing than other companies on the market - including GW. However, Mantic fanbase has always been very entitled to believe that as not true. Which is why Mantic Games is always being cautious not to get their fanbase angry. Remember the Vanguard drama at the beginning, when Mantic tried to put the cards with the profiles only with the miniatures they sold and backpedaled quite fast after that ? That's what I'm talking about.

But yeah, on long term, I expect Mantic Games to slowly reduce support for their armies without Mantic miniatures, gently, so that their fanbase gradually get used to the new standard, until it becomes natural to play only Mantic miniatures armies.

Fans are just not ready to hear that yet.

You are baiting for emotional responses dear sir

Which is why Mantic Games is always being cautious not to get their fanbase angry.

Whyever they do it, I am happy there is a company that is sensitive to what the fanbase want.

Remember the Vanguard drama at the beginning, when Mantic tried to put the cards with the profiles only with the miniatures they sold and backpedaled quite fast after that ? That's what I'm talking about.

AFAIK they still do not have any Cards in stock except for Trident Realms and Forces of Nature, BOTH being “core” factions and those are still an “experiment” if they sell well and that was quite recently. I am not on facebook, but if there was any outside of facebook then I must have missed that uproar
I like the cards but actually, I do not use them for playing, for that I have my EasyArmy printout.

But yeah, on long term, I expect Mantic Games to slowly reduce support for their armies without Mantic miniatures, gently, so that their fanbase gradually get used to the new standard, until it becomes natural to play only Mantic miniatures armies.

Fans are just not ready to hear that yet.

You except it, I say let’s see. As long as they are still providing rules (and even lore!) for those other armies, I am still mightily impressed that they do. Additionally those other armies they provide are also POWERFUL and competitive to play. I do not see any GW resemblance there at all. But to be frank, I would see nothing wrong with a "second class" status of other armies as long as they are there, balanced and ready to play. Also, they seem to have been quite happy with the Fauns kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rgdgaming/help-us-make-28mm-hard-plastic-fauns-for-your-tabl/description) for example which leads me to believe this support will continue.

I think the Titans as new monster type a good solution for the too large models, instead of just being a monster on different base.

and they won't become a must have as stuff like Greater Elementals and Dragons like everything else too karge for 50*50 was non in 2nd Edition

that some people like centerpiece large models is a thing and Mantic can't ignore those while they without big changes they are still optional for all those who don't like them

 kodos wrote:
I think the Titans as new monster type a good solution for the too large models, instead of just being a monster on different base.

And of the "new" Titans they've shown, none of them are actually new apart from the Lord on Chimera, which is also an entirely new model for a new faction (I say entirely but clearly it's a King on Chimera but bigger ) By which I mean that Titans aren't necessarily all that different, more a sign that a) Mantic gets that some people like to use BIG minis in their KOW armies, and their oversized bases aren't ideal; and b) Mantic intends to meet at least some of that demand for BIG minis in KOW armies. As signaled by the Colossal Giant.

Anyhoo, still excited for the new edition. Even more excited to hear there's a smaller paperback rule book in the starter set, already preparing to scour ebay for one - probably in addition to the fatty hardback, which I'll be buying entirely to support Mantic and put on a shelf with all my other fatty hardback rule books

I am a bit trepidacious at Mantic tweaking things just because - the stat block redesign, for example - which I think is the opposite of what they should be doing. 3E should be about community/market-informed decisions, not changing things simply to change things.

Layout is tricky as I think it is an improvement to separate the stats that change from those that say the same and like the new one more

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Damn those Northern Alliance Minis look good...ahhhhh. I can't afford to get ANOTHER game....but I'm super tempted by this.

Yeah, they look pretty nifty, and i'm a sucker for starter sets for some reason.

I'm unmoved by the titans though. too giant for my tastes

The 3rd ed starter comes with 88 figures for $100 US vs the previous which was 82 for $80 US. However, the 3rd ed Shadows in the North box does come with six large infantry total. So it is not an unreasonable increase. Originally, I was going to order the hardcover, but I may just get the Starter as both armies interest me and I do have some of each already from KoW: Vanguard.

As for the Titan class models. Other than the Frost Giant that I got in my Vanguard KS, I won't use them. Don't like figures of that size, or the monetary cost and transport difficulties that go with them. Also, they rarely earn back their points. Frequently I've dead zoned slower ones my opponents have fielded or fed faster ones cheap speed-bump units. However, for people who like centerpiece models, there are rules and they can enjoy playing with them.

Edit 1: Although I do agree with previous posters that at least 1 new sculpt should have been added to the NA units which came out in the Vanguard KS and which only have two variants.

do you think the "Scenario and Objective Counter" box will contain just the same like we got with Vanguard? it looks like it, but the vanguard "battlefield objectives" are a few bucks less....

I by the way would have enjoyed if they would also sell the 144 Page book! In 2nd Edition that Slim Rulebook was REALLY handy

Contents

7 x PVC plastic scenery objective markers
10 x Acrylic Loot Counters
10 x Acrylic Bluff Counters

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/new/kings-of-war/product/kings-of-war-scenario-and-objective-set.html

As I have the Vanguard objectives already, and have Frostgrave Treasure tokens that can be used as loot/bluff counters, this isn't for me. A slim rulebook is something I'd also like.

 Schmendrick wrote:
do you think the "Scenario and Objective Counter" box will contain just the same like we got with Vanguard? it looks like it, but the vanguard "battlefield objectives" are a few bucks less....

I by the way would have enjoyed if they would also sell the 144 Page book! In 2nd Edition that Slim Rulebook was REALLY handy

The 'super bundle' references nerve dice.

Do you think there will be a new nerve system requiring different dice, or are these just pretty dice for collectors?