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Martel732 wrote:
From where I'm sitting, power armor loses to pulse rifles pretty damn fast.

Mathematically, a space marine with Boltgun has twice the chance to take out a Fire Warrior with Pulse rifle. I think you’re seeing what you want to see.

Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.

It also shows that you do NOT have to hit power armor with AT to lay waste to it.

Martel732 wrote:
Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.

Ram them with Rhinos, that's what I do

Yeah, I can't afford those. I'm too busy paying 20 points base for a CQC goon. Besides, I shouldn't have to do that. Didn't in 3rd. Didn't in 4th. Didn't in 5th. If I lived, I didn't in 6th or 7th.,

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I can't afford those. I'm too busy paying 20 points base for a CQC goon. Besides, I shouldn't have to do that. Didn't in 3rd. Didn't in 4th. Didn't in 5th. If I lived, I didn't in 6th or 7th.,

But Rhinos are amazing! They're 7 points per wound!

I wouldn't spend 20 point's on a CQB goon either, unless it was a Tyranid Warrior with 3 wounds. What is that? Death Company?

Yeah. DC.

I know 7 ppw is good. Most of my lists just can't make room. Too many babysitters.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. DC.

I know 7 ppw is good. Most of my lists just can't make room. Too many babysitters.

The day I learned Death Company wasn't fearless was the day I knew they were kinda effed. What do you get for that 20?

Marine stats, jump pack, 6+ fNP, +1 attack on the charge. Boltgun and chainsword. 2 attacks base. 6+ FNP on a one wound model is just about the worst buff in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.

It also shows that you do NOT have to hit power armor with AT to lay waste to it.

Yes, a 10% chance is “Laying waste” to power armor

I assume you mean by “triple tap” as charging them into melee. That’s about as smart a tactic against Tau as charging them into Khorne “blender” Bezerkers. Why take an action that benefits your enemy more than yourself, it’s not like they’re going to charge the marines, and the marine have a better chance of ducking it out at 12” to 9” away, especially if they can claim cover.

Yes, I know that. But it's dumb and immersion breaking. The fact that BA of all chapters can't break a tau line with assault because of reasons is pretty nauseating.

No, I mean fething triple tap. And THEN triple tap overwatch.

Martel732 wrote:
Marine stats, jump pack, 6+ fNP, +1 attack on the charge. Boltgun and chainsword. 2 attacks base. 6+ FNP on a one wound model is just about the worst buff in the game.

4 attacks on the charge, jump pack. Do BA get +1 Strength on the charge? (I forget) Can DC get another chainsword?

Jump Packers in general are not as useful as they used to be. 20 is definitely a lot to pay for a 1 wounder.

+1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.

Martel732 wrote:
+1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.

Yeah I get it, the days of marines "hiding in close combat" are over. I'm not particularly good at assaulting these days. Thankfully my UM can survive it and shoot back on the withdrawl.

Bharring wrote:To discuss if it's "worth" it, you have to compare other options - do you mean worth it compared to giving the Power Armor to Guardsmen? Compared to building more Flak Armor? Compared to making a really nice shiny chair?

That's where Guardsmen come in. Because the question is "what else would you do with those resources". Because, if you have no answer to that question, there's no value in *not* giving Marines PA. Making it a trivial question.

Compare to other options, like I did in the original post you mean?

Bharring wrote:All that is assuming the enhnacements are directly additive

I'd argue it's the opposite, in that the power armour in many cases simply replicates what the Marine already has, and in others it essentially nullifies it. So for example the Marine is super strong, but the armour is powered assisted which means that the Marine's super strength is mostly wasted. It's like recruiting an army of nothing but powerlifting athletes who can squat over 800lbs to drive forklift trucks. How much the dude in the hot seat can squat is irrelevant because it's the fork lift that does the actual lifting and moving. You're better off giving the powerlifter a chainsword and some truly epic hypno-conditioning and giving the forklift to someone who really needs it and could make better use of it (imagine if you had like a 25 year career navy seal veteran who just can't take the physical pounding anymore).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
I think the point is that it can also do those things for refular soldiers so why not spread the resources around instead of doubling up on your investment into you gene-enhanced super soldiers.

right.

for the record guys these threads get a lot better in quality if you put Martel on ignore and thus allow yourself to focus on the actual discussion rather then Martel's attempts to derail any and every topic about Marines into "marines suck in 40k table top!"

as for power armor, keep in mind that the added strength it adds is a force MULTIPLIER. you get more if you multiple 2x2 then 1x2.

also marines have a MUCH faster reaction time then anyone else wearing power armor due to the black carapiece

 G00fySmiley wrote:

tabletop sure, fluffwise probably the space marine in power armor defeats the 10 guardsman in power armor. When Horus met the Interects (sp?) he and his guard are partially unarmed/armored and the interects had full on bolters and power armor/weapons and the handful of space marines still escapes with 1 person capured, and zero other losses if I recall correctly. a few injuries but relatively unscathed from a whioel city force trying to capture them

Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.

For the Space Marines to work, they need perfect conditions. On the tabletop, it would like if you had a hot lucky streak with your dices and were basically a strategical god facing off a relatively noob opponent with a non anti-marine list. In competitive environment where Marines are the most abundant opponent by far, it goes about as well as some gakky Black Legion upstart facing off a well prepared Creed on Cadia.

Are the Space Marines "the best use of Power Armours"? Yes they probably were the best use for such armors during the Horus Heresy back when they were the backbone forces and siege specialists of the Imperium. Back then, a high concentration of superpowered soldiers in light tank plates was capable of overwhelming any defense. Now that they are more like specialised commando who operate in very small forces, the big, noisy and bulky power armors are probably not needed and could do better with carapace armors and camo cloaks or terminator/centurion armors for their famous drop pod assault on a small zone, but the Imperium is dogmatic to a ridiculous degree and equips the Space Marines in the same way they always were even though their role and structure has radically changed since the Great Crusade.

Power armor is expensive, so they issue it to their best troops to further enhance their effectiveness. Probably yes, assuming your space marines are deployed effectively.

It's also a measure of wealth and prestige; so the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors also wear it as a demonstration of how much more rich and powerful the church and Inquisition are than the peasants or planetary officials.


The Guard, on the other hand, is here to win wars. A trooper's FlaK armor needs basically no maintenance he can't do himself, can be produced by the billions, requires no further resources once produced, consumes a minimum of cargo space, and is good enough to provide adequate protection against the majority of things that will shoot at Guardsmen. Power armor isn't that rare, it still is mass produced for the Astartes and the Sisters of Battle, but it's not logistically efficient to provide it for the Imperial Guard.

Similar thing with Lasguns: Bolters may be also mass produced and more lethal, but a lasgun and 3 power packs basically requires a minimum of upkeep that a Guardsman can't perform himself. No additional ammunition has to be supplied, it has like 1 moving part total, survives most hostile conditions better than the man carrying it, etc. The extra logistical capacity that would go towards a regiment's worth of bolter shells can go to artillery pieces, food, or more soldiers.

Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.

if you're refering to the siege of the ecclessiarchial palace during the reign of blood there's some factors you need to consider.

1st of all they didn't defeat them. the siege was ongoing at the time until it was ended by Alicia Dominica

2ndly: it was a siege of the eclessiarchial palace. we dunno a whole lot about this structure but we do know a little bit, namely that the Custodes took a secret passageway and arrived out front Vandire's audiance chamber. anbd then took Dominica back down it to meet with the emperor. it sounds like the Eclissarchial palace was part of the "Outer Imperial Palace"
So you didn't have 10k sisters defeating 4k Marines, you had 10k Sisters holding what was likely some of the best fortifications in the galaxy agaisnt 4k Space Marines, and only god knows how much Skitari, (rememebr the Admech was there too) for a period of time. which sounds a bit less impressive. honestly if your fortifications are strong eneugh you'd be able to hold out a long time agaisnt Marines. especially if the Marines where being careful about colaterial damage (which they likely where)

BrianDavion wrote:

Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.

if you're refering to the siege of the ecclessiarchial palace during the reign of blood there's some factors you need to consider.

1st of all they didn't defeat them. the siege was ongoing at the time until it was ended by Alicia Dominica

2ndly: it was a siege of the eclessiarchial palace. we dunno a whole lot about this structure but we do know a little bit, namely that the Custodes took a secret passageway and arrived out front Vandire's audiance chamber. anbd then took Dominica back down it to meet with the emperor. it sounds like the Eclissarchial palace was part of the "Outer Imperial Palace"
So you didn't have 10k sisters defeating 4k Marines, you had 10k Sisters holding what was likely some of the best fortifications in the galaxy agaisnt 4k Space Marines, and only god knows how much Skitari, (rememebr the Admech was there too) for a period of time. which sounds a bit less impressive. honestly if your fortifications are strong eneugh you'd be able to hold out a long time agaisnt Marines. especially if the Marines where being careful about colaterial damage (which they likely where)

Actually, the Space Marines were defeated in the sense that their objective was to avoid a siege of the Ecclesiarchical palace (which would be long since it's a massive fortress). Their drop pod assault was pushed back and they were forced to retreat and siege the palace the good old fashion until the Brides basically turned coat and surrendered. So it's a victory, just not a crushing one where the Marine forces are exterminated, but one where they are forced to retreat and go for another, more expensive, strategy.

To be far to the marines, the sisters were defending the Imperial Palace a structure build by the emperor himself and malcador and further reinforced by Dorn during the Heresy. Horus himself couldn't crack that egg and that was with the numbers really being on his side since his force was at least double if not triple of the defenders.

A handful of chapters are going to have a rough time getting in against a fanatical foe who would never break or run and who are probably as close as you get to a marine as a normal human.

taking on a defender with a large numerical advantage, in a heavy fortified location is absolute HELL. and as HoundsofDemos noted, this is a fortification designed specificly to defend against Marines. Honestly, I think that the Marines attempt a lighting assault at all is a demonstration of just how despirate the situation was. Hell keep in mind this is a situation that when the CUSTODES heard what was going on, intervened. and I'd be willing to bet had they not been able to sway Alica Dominica that their next step would have been direct intervention. I think it says just how serious the reign of blood was that this stuff was happening (I really think this would be a fantastic event to devote a novel series too)

HoundsofDemos wrote:
To be far to the marines, the sisters were defending the Imperial Palace a structure build by the emperor himself and malcador and further reinforced by Dorn during the Heresy. Horus himself couldn't crack that egg and that was with the numbers really being on his side since his force was at least double if not triple of the defenders.

A handful of chapters are going to have a rough time getting in against a fanatical foe who would never break or run and who are probably as close as you get to a marine as a normal human.

I think the Ecclesiarchical palace in which the battle was actually fought was a newer section of the Imperial Palace which was severely damaged by the battle fought there during the Horus Heresy, but it was indeed pretty much in the top five of most fortified place in the Imperium. I don't think that the idea of 10K Brides defeating 4K Space Marines in such circumstances is anywhere close to a surprise or a miracle. It was pretty much given. In fact, Space Marines themselves were unaware of the existence of the Brides of the Emperor (or at least of their presence in the Ecclesiarchical palace). I doubt they would have launched a drop pod assault to take the fortification without a siege in such circomstances. It probably would have been seen as too risky. A drop pod assault only works when the enemy isn't expecting you or if they are strongly susceptible to shock and awe tactics.

Martel732 wrote:
+1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.

What you should do, no matter the ppm, is:
A) Learn to run your marines effectively in this edition.
B) Accept that yesterdays way of playing them is no longer the optimal way & stop bitching about it if that's how you insist upon playing them anyways.

even if the Marines did know about them it's likely they under estimated them the brides where a new force at the time and I imagine the Marines would have dismissed them as foolish children playing at being soldiers. the kind over over equipped under experianced, poorly lead honor guard Marines had seen, and eradicated, countless times

 Xenomancers wrote:

Flak armor is basically kevlar...it is close to useless against laser weapons.

Considering they can stop a bolt from a multi-laser suggests that flak isn't useless against laser weapons.

 Ratius wrote:
Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:

speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles

Lets see. Speed of a space marine is 6". Other infantry, on foot, without power armor is faster. Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4. Targeting ? Space marines usually hit on 3s, other models, without power armor, also hit on 3s. Protection. Space marines have a 3+ sv, other models without power armor too. So, no, power armor does nothing for space marines.

Actually then you could as well ask why modern military (at least in france I guess) tends to give the most advanced and efficient weapon to their elite. Atfer all, their so good they could fight with slingshots.... Anyone agrees its a silly question?

I don't see anything irrelevant in wanting your best troops to beneit from the hole lot of bonuses (as previously described), extra protecting to avoid them falling to light weapons too easily.

So to the original question, yes, it servs a purpose as direct contributor to the effectiveness of the marines.

Now this flak armour vs power armour comparison seems -in my opinion- on the contrary irrelevant: why compare what you can't?
Trying to prove a flak jacket superior to a power armour because of its price makes no sense, they pursuie two totally different goals and thus have different design: you obviously don't want an overexpensive armour to produce it en masse......
So flak armour: Great to equip your countless militia! But said armour is of little help against most weapons in 40K where everything is atrociously OP.
Power armour: Greant to enhance/protect your elite! But to hard to produce and maintain for the common soldiery to get any.

I think it's as simple as that.

bouncingboredom wrote:
Not sure if this is the best home for this thread but hey ho and away we go.

So I've been reading up on some of the early background articles on the process behind which SM are converted from aspiring youngsters to one of the Emperor's finest death dealers and it occured to me that giving power armour to SM seems like a waste resources. Granted when it comes to void fighting, clearing space hulks etc it makes some sense and there's an argument for putting the Emp's finest inside the best armour the Imperium can muster to keep them safe, but given the nature of the process it does seem like a waste. You give them the ability to breathe poisonous atmosphere, but then put them in a suit with a rebreather. You go to great lengths to harden their skin and engineer them both chemically and materially to be much stronger, faster and more hardy than the average human, but then you put them inside a suit that needs a power pack and a neural interface to work properly.

It's all in the name: Space Marine. They're marines - forces that act in support of naval and army forces that specialize in boarding actions and lightning raids on shores. They operate in Space, meaning the need full vacuum kit. When the Emperor was going out to conquer the galaxy, the only fights worth fighting were in space, because planet-bound forces are fairly irrelevant to controlling a galaxy.

Space Marines support the most important military organization in the Imperium - the Navy. That's why Space Marine chapter get their own, dedicated ships (and fleets!), while the Imperial Guard does not. Guard are just cargo to the Navy.

Just to clarify, because we're in the Background section, my answer is based off of Background data, not any kind of in-game stats, because this ain't the right forum for that. Sorry Martel.

Force concentration. Even if you gave your limited suits of power armour to as many of the best humans who could wear them as you had suits, you'd still be worse off.

Firstly, strategically and logistically, the humans are not prepared for this. Human doctrines are typically relegated to a single role, for a single regiment - therefore, the myriad possibilities open to power armour are wasted because the human inside will likely not be trained/assigned/live long enough to use the armour in all of it's uses (void combat, physical mass, overlapping body shields a la testudo). You just end up with single soldiers on their own, just doing normal guardsman things, but better. Sure, you could train them, but their attrition rate will still be higher - will come to this later - which means you need to waste more time in training MORE guys. With Marines, who have less battlefield losses and only need training once, and will last longer than guardsmen, even in power armour. Therefore, a Marine can be relied upon to take on a wider range of field operations and use the power armour in more situations.

Furthermore, logistically, all a Chapter's power armour is in one place, and the Chapter is largely capable of looking after their own suits. I don't know how your system would work, but seeing how you've not put any logistical framework in place aside from "the top X% of guardsmen get power armour", that sounds logistically nightmarish! Out of ALL the guardsmen in the galaxy, we need to monitor all of them, pick the top X% at any given moment and give them power armour training and implants, then their power armour, and then what? Do we make them into their own unit? Do we send them back to their original regiments? What if some regiments have a higher concentration of power armour recruits than others? Do artillery and armoured regiments also get power armoured guys? And the reliable logistical support of spread out power armour becomes hellish for the Administratum - at least the Space Marines are centralised, consistent, and often have their own forges.

Onto the attrition and general use of the armour. Yes, Space Marines are naturally tough. However, armour doesn't remove their existing toughness. If anything, it makes it even HARDER to kill them. Think about it, any damage needs to go through the armour, and then through the Marine. On a guardsman, it only needs to go through the armour, and then it'll probably kill the guy inside it.
The enemies of mankind already have weapons that can pierce power armour. Anything that has a power field is especially important. However, these things rarely one-shot Marines, because even if it pierces the armour, the Marine is capable of surviving it - this would not be the case if not for the armour and increased toughness working together.
Essentially, it comes down to thinking "okay, the marine paired with the armour is exponentially more effective than giving the armour to a guardsman. The armour acts as a force multiplier, making the Marine even more powerful".

Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine. As a result, that's more guardsmen you need to teach to use the armour, redistribute the armour, and recover the armour from. On a Marine, they can last decades, even centuries, wearing the same suit, and only need to be trained once.

I suppose the best way to look at the armour is as an amplifier. Do you want to amplify the abilities of something mediocre to make it good, or amplify something good to make it great? In my eyes, far better to do the latter.

Its actually not the background section. But carry on. I dont really care.