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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

You have a wife and toddlers and want to play 40K?! What have you done when you were single? Sorry pal, but your time is up.

The first time I got married I let her tell me to stop gaming. The second time around I made it very clear that being told to give up my hobbies was a deal-breaker, ten years together and I haven't had more than the occasional grumble. A family is only going to put an end to your gaming if you let it.

On the original topic; short answer 'no', long answer 'nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...'

40k really doesn't check off your boxes. A standard 2000 point game is a lot of models for every faction other than Imperial Knights and Custodes, and individual knights are huge models that are difficult to paint well. Even at 1000 points some armies can put 200 models on the table and the game starts breaking down badly below that mark. Strategy is mostly at the army building phase. For two players at roughtly even skill levels faction selection will decide almost as many games as army selection because inter-faction balance is is better than it's ever been and it's still laughably bad. 40k doesn't function without 3d terrain because of how the line-of-sight rules work. (Although in all honesty creating terrain can be as simple as some boxes and box lids and some gray spray paint if you want it to be.) GW is really bad at writing rules; they're inconsistent, ambiguous, counter-intuitive, and poorly organized. Wait, why do I play this game again? ...oh right, it's the only table top miniature game anyone is playing within a 2-hour drive of where I live and I like complaining about how stupid the rules are almost as much as I like actually playing the game.

I'd put another recommendation for Warmachine/Hordes, but I haven't played since their third edition came out. Historically their rules have been tight, their inter-faction balance has been very good, and it's been a game where a tournament-quality player with a list selected at random from the D- and F-rated garbage in his chosen faction will consistently beat a bad player with a tournament-tuned list that he copied from the internet. In the interests of fairness I had my complaints about Warmachine when I played that too, the internal balance of most of the factions was pretty bad and there were plenty of counter-intuitive rules there despite them being very clearly written.

I've heard good things about x-wing, but I've never played it. As I understand it there's no terrain at all, you don't have to paint anything, and the average army size is 2-4 models.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/13 12:46:55


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





The Newman wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

You have a wife and toddlers and want to play 40K?! What have you done when you were single? Sorry pal, but your time is up.

The first time I got married I let her tell me to stop gaming. The second time around I made it very clear that being told to give up my hobbies was a deal-breaker, ten years together and I haven't had more than the occasional grumble. A wife and kids is only going to put an end to your gaming if you let it.


Good on you. A spouse should accept who you are, and that includes your hobbies.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




 greatbigtree wrote:
You might like Warmachine/Hordes (Two compatible Systems) although it's not nearly as popular as 40k, so harder to find opponents. May be dead in your area. May be dead around the world in a year or two, depending on whether or not Privateer Press can turn things around.

Regarding your criteria...

* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs. I am thinking 30-50 ideally (I am not set on the exact numbers though). However, a good variety in abilities and synergies is idea. I also like having a "big" hero/commander with great abilities

~ 75 points is typically 25 to 40 models, and is the "suggested" size for battles. All commanders are critically important to game play... if they die, you lose.


* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)

~ WMH has fewer minis, and the minis have *generally* fewer details, which I find easier / quicker to paint. Except for a couple of notable factions, like Menoth. They're loaded with extra gubbins.


* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?

~ WMH *can* be played with 2d terrain. It's a steampunk / fantasy setting, so simple woods, houses, hills, walls, that sort of thing goes a long way, and in general, 9 pieces of 6x6 inch base terrain would be more than enough for most games. If you had 15 pieces, you could play 20 games with *technically* different terrain setups, maybe more.


* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))

~ WMH is played on 4x4 board, or smaller for varients. 2 hours (once you know the game and your army) should be plenty.


* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.

~ Frustrating for me, is that each roll is 2d6 (or more) dice, and you total the results. So 4d6, discard the lowest roll might net you a 6, 4, 3, 1... discarding the lowest you'd have a total of 13 for your result. With multiple dice, your results will form a bell curve, making results somewhat more predictable. Unfortunately, that means each and every attack / action is rolled separately, so you can't roll 5 attacks at a time from one unit... for example.


* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?

~ I think there's around 8 major factions, and most factions have around 4 "Themes" that can be built. While customizing models is less convenient than 40k (Almost 0 spare bitz) you can have a wide variety of units available.


* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?

~ All Commander models have magic they can cast, using Focus or Fury points that they have. Different spells cost different amounts of Focus / Fury, and you replenish that in different ways. Some casters are beat sticks, some are support, and others are just unusual. Many "unit champions" and each Commander (Warcaster / Warlock) have a once-per-game "Feat" that they can also activate. So while not "hidden", there are countless decisions about when and how and where that would be tricky to create an AI for.


* Playable with 3 players from time to time

~ I've played 3 player WMH battles, but I'll say it's less well suited than a game like 40k. 4 players is fine, but if one side's Caster gets killed it's pretty much game over.


* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

~ WMH is / has been a tournament focused game. Mostly because the rules are tighter, and the skill cap is much higher (in my opinion). While it can seem like two teams that run to the middle and smash each other, Chess is also like that. The trick is to trade and gain advantageous position, while your opponent is trying to do the same. In that regard, I find it a much more tactical game, particularly as most things are "fragile", like in Chess. Ranges for things are relatively short, so in order to be threatening, you are yourself threatened. Unlike 40k, for example, where you can have dedicated melee troops (moving 12" per turn) facing Artillery tanks that can potentially fire 240"... not that you play on such sized boards, but that's the range of an Earthshaker Cannon.


~ Extra Info ~ In Europe, WMH is more expensive than 40k, where in North America, WMH is less expensive than 40k.

The nice part, is that rules are VERY cheap. The starter boxes (about $35 USD) include the rules for the game, a basic "Battlegroup" of about 4 models, and everything you need to start a basic game against someone with another Battlebox. A "codex" costs around $8 USD (Through the War Room 2 app) and includes an Army Builder with all the (updating) rules. So no worries about FAQ or Errata or things like that. The App updates with all that info. Given the low cost of rules, you can probably build a pair of 2-List 75 point WMH lists for around the same price as a pair of 1500 point 40k armies. With WMH, you can build your lists to be somewhat interchangeable between "Themes" and that lowers the cost of getting variety somewhat, I find.


thanks !
A lot of people have recommended Warmachine to me I had a look at the rules and armies and it indeed looks interesting.
However, I am just worried that the community down there in France (even in Paris) is too small. I will have to check
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





Any game's community will be small except for 40k. Especially when compared to 40k.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in ie
Missionary On A Mission





 auticus wrote:
Any game's community will be small except for 40k. Especially when compared to 40k.


Warmachine has taken a hit on its playerbase though. Mk3 launched only a few months before 8th and was...rough to say the least and a lot of players just jumped ship to 40k. Since then the company has made a bunch of mistakes, poor decisions and bad PR moves to the point where they were being compared to Kirby era GW. The community seems to exist in pockets now, with the game still going strong in some areas but totally dead in others.

HOWEVER. They appointed a new CEO recently, launching some new games, overhauling some aspects of the way WMH plays, set up a european distribution center and are moving out of their expensive Seattle offices so maybe they can pull things back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 15:04:40


   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





lillumultipass wrote:
(...)

* I have never painted (...)
* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play (...)
* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (...)
* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.
* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice (...)
* Playable with 3 players from time to time
* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point


Honestly, it sounds like you are a PRIME candidate for the non-mini game Advanced Squad Leader (or the slightly lighter Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/15 18:36:42


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






ASL is superb, but..if someone is vaguely interested in 40K I'm not entirely sure they're the ASL type.

 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Elbows wrote:
ASL is superb, but..if someone is vaguely interested in 40K I'm not entirely sure they're the ASL type.


Hello.

I wish I owned a copy of ASL.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

Sounds like you need to look into Privateer Press' Warmachine or Hordes. Warmachine is Steampunk, and Hordes is high fantasy. They both use the same rules, and you will see both being used in play against each other. As a matter of fact, this August, Privateer Press is releasing a new rulebook that combines both sets of rules into one book. All the rules and unit information is available for free at the PP website. Army sizes are around 30-40 models for tournament play, though starter box "armies" are typically 3-6 models. Play on a 4x4 area with terrain, and because of the way the game really focuses on movement and placement of models, everyone uses flat terrain representing varies game effects (e.g., hills, shallow water, walls, buildings, etc.). Personally, I like 3d terrain, but to each their own.

Another game PP makes is called Company of Iron and is typically played with 10 or so models, and is very much a skirmish type game based on WM/H above.

Another game PP has out is called "Monsterpoclypse"- think Godzilla, but with all the old monster vs. robots vs aliens Japanese movies. Played on a 2x2 game mat, you get to rampage through a city destroying it as you go and beating up on your opponent. Pretty fun "Beer and pretzels" game. Simple rules, quick games.

This fall, PP is releasing a game called "Riot Quest" which is a small group (5 model or less) of characters are ransacking the ruins of a cataclysm. Based off the WM/H rules above.

Another game you could try: Warhammer Underworlds. Warbands of 3-7 models, played on a game board with a deck of cards.

You could also try Necromunda or Kill Teams. Both are low model count, small table games but they are very terrain dependent and require a lot of it.

Corvus Belle's Infinity game comes to mind. Hard core skirmish game with very tight and somewhat complicated rules. Requires a lot of terrain though.

How about the Wild West, but with steampunk, magic, and aliens? A small company just put out the second edition of Wild West Exodus. Cowboys, Indians, Aliens, dark creatures from another dimension...

If the above is not weird enough, try Weird Miniatures Malafux game. Is a dice-less miniatures game that uses cards to resolve game effects. The models are top notch, and the game is incredibly weird.

Finally, the last recommendation I can give is Battletech, from Catalyst games. You control 1-4 models on a 1x2 hex map of a giant battlemech (giant robot) and try to destroy your opponent's Battlemechs. Not for the faint of heart. The rules can be very granular (picky).

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





ASL is an acquired taste. It is like super chess compared to 40k being... tic tac toe.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Just start with the Killteam. It is 40K lite and uses the same models. If you like it is easy to expand to 40K proper later.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




I second Heroes of Black Reach. Its also from french developers and from what i see its much bigger in France.

Because its essentially a boardgame-wargame system you can play with friends that wouldnt normally play with miniatures.

Check it out. You buy the big box and you have everything to play (though i advise to buy sheets for cards too). If you would like it then you can buy expansions for both races. Next year from what i can read Tyranids and Eldar come out.
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

You have a wife and toddlers and want to play 40K?! What have you done when you were single? Sorry pal, but your time is up.


My toddler stole one of my dakkajets for her toy airport, used my Morkanaut as an evil stompy robot to fight her rainbow unicorns and one of my Plague Burst Crawlers is now a bulldozer which brings soup to hungry construction vehicles (plague mortar = pot of soup).

Good thing I play orks and death guard and not something flimsy like eldar

Proppa gits get proppa kids.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 08:01:39


Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





 auticus wrote:
ASL is an acquired taste.


Yea, its one of those thing which requires an "a ha!" moment. For years my brother tried to convince me it was the most beautiful game system in the world but I just didnt grok. Then I read Jay Richardson's set of explanatory articles and the light bulb finally lit up. It really is "the beautiful game". I'm working on a treaty for how the 40k turn sequence could learn from it. But I digress...
   
Made in gb
Dominating Dominatrix






 Sunsanvil wrote:
 auticus wrote:
ASL is an acquired taste.
Yea, its one of those thing which requires an "a ha!" moment. For years my brother tried to convince me it was the most beautiful game system in the world but I just didnt grok. Then I read Jay Richardson's set of explanatory articles and the light bulb finally lit up. It really is "the beautiful game". I'm working on a treaty for how the 40k turn sequence could learn from it. But I digress...
Not to be the Devils Advocate, but if a game system needs a "set of explanatory articles" for it to click, it shouldn't really be considered a paragon of the genre, don't you agree?

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Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





Depends on what you are after. For the lion's share of the commercial player base, accessibility is the key and is harped on at pretty much every gamedev conference I've attended since the late 2000s. Accessibility makes games like ASL a complete no-go because most people are never going to touch games like that.

See also: Infinity. Great game. Amazing depth. And in most places its hard finding more than a couple people that will play it because people like them their easy rules that don't require much to master, because nothing drives someone away from a game faster than them having to invest a lot of time to figure the game out in the first place and losing to people that have figured it out already.

This is also what allegedly was a part of the whfb problem in 6th editiion and 7th edition and why 8th edition started dumbing the game down considerably.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

In short... No. 40k's main plus points are the setting and models. The game rules appeal to people who like combos, working out what to shoot and when and list building. In terms of tactical movement the game is somewhat lacking due to a number of issues, but you compensate for this using terrain, scenarios and command points.

A better fit would probably be Epic with smaller terrain, amounts of models, still with heroes etc. If you are in the UK there is one tourney a month while if that French flag means you are noshing down on snails and frogs legs, they have their own set up and tourney schedule. http://epic-fr.niceboard.com/ I assume that's the right link, I don't read the language of diplomacy...

With regard for your points...

* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs.
Quite possible, with heroes in 40k. Most Space Marine armies are like that.

* I have never painted but I would like to try
GW has lots of painting resources, but virtually all companies do now and fan sites replicate lots of this.

* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play.
You need lots of terrain to compensate for weaknesses in the 40k ruleset. But you can make this from cardboard pre-fabs and other pre-coloured solutions commonly available.

* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint
4x4 with a 1000 points a side would do this.

* Rather deep rules :
No. 40k has lots of rules, but none are particularly deep. so 40k will have dozens of sources of rules and pages and pages of information, but the game plays ina straightforward manner. Compare that to, say, King of the Battlefield where the rules are on 4 sides of A5 and provide thought provoking, historically accurate games to play and win.

* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?
Yes. But a lot of the customisation is sub-optimal or false choices.

* No hidden information
It isn't commonly played with hidden information or objectives.

* Playable with 3 players from time to time
Yep

* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point
It is
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Not to be the Devils Advocate, but if a game system needs a "set of explanatory articles" for it to click, it shouldn't really be considered a paragon of the genre, don't you agree?


Under any other circumstance I would, but this situation is more one of understanding the "why" of the rule structure. If one were to pickup Starter Kit #1 and read the rules, any competent persons could play a scenario, maybe even enjoy it. But what Jay's articles have done for many newcomers is paint a picture of what the rules represent, which is what opens up a narrative element, enabling a play through to become as much story as strategy. There as been much prompting by the community for MMP to incorporate this right into the rulebook at some point.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 auticus wrote:
Depends on what you are after. For the lion's share of the commercial player base, accessibility is the key and is harped on at pretty much every gamedev conference I've attended since the late 2000s. Accessibility makes games like ASL a complete no-go because most people are never going to touch games like that.

See also: Infinity. Great game. Amazing depth. And in most places its hard finding more than a couple people that will play it because people like them their easy rules that don't require much to master, because nothing drives someone away from a game faster than them having to invest a lot of time to figure the game out in the first place and losing to people that have figured it out already.

Honestly Warmachine has this problem too. The rules are clear and unambiguous, but there's a lot to learn if you want to be competitive at all. We used to joke that it had a rules density approaching tax law.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





I'd agree with that assessment. Though my area had about 3x the number of warmachine players as they did with Infinity, I do know a lot of our 40k players do not like Warmachine specifically because of the content to master.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





While your requirements are something to think about I think the answer to this is really found in the following questions

1.) Are you going to play this at home, with family or friends where you own everything or have a built in playgroup who will also buy in or do you desire to play at a shop with "strangers"?

2.) If you want to play at a shop (Or club) do you not mind trying jumpstart a community, or do you just want to show up and play?

3.) IF you just want to show up and play what games are played at your store or club? Go in and see if someone will give you a demo, of some games do you enjoy them, how many players play etc.

40k might not be your best choice, but depending on your area and availability it might be your only choice if you want to actually play the game. I've played many games I enjoy more than 40k but I don't have time to drum up a community and no one around me plays those games so I end up with 40k.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

 Tamwulf wrote:
If the above is not weird enough, try Wyrd Miniatures Malafux game. Is a dice-less miniatures game that uses cards to resolve game effects. The models are top notch, and the game is incredibly weird.
Malifaux might appeal. Truckloads of flavor, loads of tactical depth, cards instead of dice offer quite a bit of control with a lower level of randomness, pretty low buy-in and the new edition tightens crew building down so there's less list building involved. Brand new edition and new / resculpted / reboxed minis makes now a nice time to get in. Community dependent as all mini games but a good time to build / find something. Also uses a 3x3 playing area.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 16:06:30


BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
Made in ca
Focused Fire Warrior




Canada

lillumultipass wrote:


* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.



Enough has been said about different games so i'm just here to comment on the dice. While it is true that in dice games like shadespire where you pick up 1-4 dice per turn and only have 12 turns the outcome of your dice can vastly effect the game; in 40k you will end up throwing hundreds into the thousands depending on your army in the 2-5 hours the game lasts. You get a lot of people that complain about dice but in reality the sheer volume almost always balances it out. To top that off the majority of games are won via better strategy, match ups, misplays etc over rolls. Various abilities like command point rerolls help mitigate "bad luck" and utilizing that resource and when to use it is a skill to master like any other. For the most part people either set themselves up for success or failure(and then complain about their rolls even though there in game/list building decisions put them in that position to begin with). If you ever find yourself losing to a roll you should be asking yourself why did you need that roll to go off to begin with rather then asking yourself why your so unlucky. For a roll to really dictate the entire pace of the game it basically has to be one of the following
a) You choose an army that needs to hit 9's to charge for example (wyches) and some games your triple wyches will flop. That however was a choice to play said army and many don'y ever need any one particular roll. Rather then every roll is just damage or whether a multiplier goes off.
b) The game is exceedingly close and one last fight/shooting/charge which has been achieved by many factors to even get to that spot


This isn't exclusive to 40k moreso why any game rolling bucketloads of dice has potential upside even though it might seem daunting or unnecessary.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 16:56:13


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Jidmah wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

You have a wife and toddlers and want to play 40K?! What have you done when you were single? Sorry pal, but your time is up.


My toddler stole one of my dakkajets for her toy airport, used my Morkanaut as an evil stompy robot to fight her rainbow unicorns and one of my Plague Burst Crawlers is now a bulldozer which brings soup to hungry construction vehicles (plague mortar = pot of soup).

Good thing I play orks and death guard and not something flimsy like eldar

Proppa gits get proppa kids.
Just want to say that your daughter sounds awesome, and you sound like a good parent too.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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