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Cawl came up with the designs, not an STC system.
The fact that all primaris stuff has its own designer mark even in weapon choices, me likes.

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing about that abomination of mixed messages and design inconsistencies is reasonable.

Who ever designed that thing did a nice job sculpting wise, they just need to be told not to drink 8 redbull and watch the matrix on loop while designing 40k miniatures as it's got dumb fluff, dumb design and it make the redemeptor dread look dumb by association.

Stealth dreadnaught would have been stretching the fluff but a light weight dreadnaught would have been suitable.

But this is a steath mech with a flame thrower and machine guns, both extremely stealthy weapons.
It then gets a heavy bolter pistol so it can shoot people in CC by wielding a weapon in it's CCW that it's simultaneously using to beat people with.
Clearly the adult supervision lacking that day.

There is also the problem that Redemptors literally burn their pilots to a crisp.

Concerning the Invictor’s stealth capability, as I understand, it’s “stealthy” in the same fashion as a landmine. You don’t see it, then it krumps you.

 Ishagu wrote:
Plasma Tech was never lost, Anti Grav Tech was never lost.

The AdMech retreated into a conservative dogma of not sharing any technology. Some things became increasingly rare, but the Imperial Regent has changed things a bit.

Changes like these are ruining the uniqueness of the setting. The IOM being an empire in decline since the HH was an interesting concept. Having various tech be rare and hard to maintain made things like landspeeders or the rare hover bike feel unique and set humanity apart from the other factions.

Now it's hover tech galore and massive leaps in tech progress. It cheapens what made 40k unique compared to any other sci fi setting.

A heavy stubber is basically a 50BMG machine gun. Not a weak gun by any means. But yes they should’ve had Bolter type weapons which are what marines use. I also think they need a light assault cannon for terminators and a dreadnought assault cannon that does more damage. They are different sized guns.

Personally, I love the ol' Ma Duece. It's a great looking weapon, and I'm fairly positive that's what GW were going for with the Stubber. It's an old, reliable, usually vehicular mounted weapon, that was for light vehicles and entrenched positions.

I wouldn't be opposed to making Heavy Stubbers S5 and upping the cost. They obviously fill a different role than the SB, which is a more anti-infantry choice anyway.

Given the way they are presented in the game, why would anyone bother using bolters over stubbers?

I would say the Stubber should get less shots, high str, longer range. SB should be less range, more shots, lower str.

Right now to make that happen all you have to do is make stubbers S5.

Its a shame - I would love a rationalisation of the background and models where Guard have next to no heavy bolters and heavy stubbers instead...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Its a shame - I would love a rationalisation of the background and models where Guard have next to no heavy bolters and heavy stubbers instead...

Heavy bolters are mass-produced.
Heavy stubbers are mass-produced as well, but since they aren't considered(lore-wise) as versatile as heavy bolters are--they end up tending to be pintle mounted on tanks.

If you really want to get into the nitty-gritty of it though, stubbers/autoguns are stupidly variable in calibers, builds, etc--it'd be a logistical nightmare in all likelihood to have them maintained in such crazy high numbers as Guard would field them. Even with the concept of Forge Worlds devoted strictly to ammo production.

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing about that abomination of mixed messages and design inconsistencies is reasonable.

Who ever designed that thing did a nice job sculpting wise, they just need to be told not to drink 8 redbull and watch the matrix on loop while designing 40k miniatures as it's got dumb fluff, dumb design and it make the redemeptor dread look dumb by association.

Stealth dreadnaught would have been stretching the fluff but a light weight dreadnaught would have been suitable.

But this is a steath mech with a flame thrower and machine guns, both extremely stealthy weapons.
It then gets a heavy bolter pistol so it can shoot people in CC by wielding a weapon in it's CCW that it's simultaneously using to beat people with.
Clearly the adult supervision lacking that day.

Can’t defend the sidearm bolter, but there’s different uses for stealth. A lot of people get into the flawed mindset of thinking stealth can ONLY be Sam Fisher in splinter cell. Get in, kill, and get out without detection. That’s often unreasonable and unattainable.

Stealth can also be about getting into optimum engagement range without detection, which is exactly what this warsuit does.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, did I remember correctly that outside of Planetary defense issues (ala Non-Astartes matters), there is no such thing as "cost" in the imperium? It's just bodies and bullets? No one really pays with money anymore? All worlds pay a "tax" to Terra, in bodies.

The Imperium is a command economy. There is currency, in the form of "thrones", which are mentioned moderately frequently, and credits [presumably the credits are local-issue currency for citizens who will never see the sky and thrones are interplanetary for rogue traders and planetary nobles], and people do get paid and buy things, but the greater Imperial apparatus does not deal with money; it commands that things be made and they are on pain of death.

The Departmento Munitorium and Administratum passes edicts specifying the quotas of things [tanks, men, food, tooling, industrial resources, etc.] that a planet must meet, and those planets meet those quotas. In exchange for meeting those quotas, the planetary lords keep their jobs and keep their lives, and receive the materials that their planet needs to survive that can't be produced indigenously.

Its hard to get a true sense of economy because there are a lot of contradictions... While the payment of tithe by local governments may be by edict, we've been shown the Mechanicum deals in money, the Inquisition deals in money, even those given as tithe to the Imperial Guard are paid... , its even been mentioned a couple of times that when locals work in the Fortress Monestaries of the Astartes those locals are paid. So while I think there is something of a command economy, certain edicts have to have material compensation built in. Its clearly stated in more than one novel that across regions of the Imperium companies pay exorbitant licencing fees to the Mechanicum for the right to produce different technologies. That clearly implies something less than a true command economy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing about that abomination of mixed messages and design inconsistencies is reasonable.

Who ever designed that thing did a nice job sculpting wise, they just need to be told not to drink 8 redbull and watch the matrix on loop while designing 40k miniatures as it's got dumb fluff, dumb design and it make the redemeptor dread look dumb by association.

Stealth dreadnaught would have been stretching the fluff but a light weight dreadnaught would have been suitable.

But this is a steath mech with a flame thrower and machine guns, both extremely stealthy weapons.
It then gets a heavy bolter pistol so it can shoot people in CC by wielding a weapon in it's CCW that it's simultaneously using to beat people with.
Clearly the adult supervision lacking that day.

Can’t defend the sidearm bolter, but there’s different uses for stealth. A lot of people get into the flawed mindset of thinking stealth can ONLY be Sam Fisher in splinter cell. Get in, kill, and get out without detection. That’s often unreasonable and unattainable.

Stealth can also be about getting into optimum engagement range without detection, which is exactly what this warsuit does.

The problem that people have with a stealthy dreadnought can be better expressed this way... a warsuit at 200 yards is as visible as a Marine at 100 yards or a human at 50yd... at 100 yards, its as visible as a marine at 30 yards or a human at 10 yards... at 30 yards its as visible as a marine at 5 yards.... and that's just visual taking the curvature of an earth sized planet into consideration.

I agree stealth has multiple meanings, but GW's description emphasizes sound dampening, speed, and an ability to deploy and move up along side phobos armored primaris... Its clearly trying to insinuate that its some how as stealthy as those infantry units.

aka_mythos wrote:

Spoiler:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, did I remember correctly that outside of Planetary defense issues (ala Non-Astartes matters), there is no such thing as "cost" in the imperium? It's just bodies and bullets? No one really pays with money anymore? All worlds pay a "tax" to Terra, in bodies.

The Imperium is a command economy. There is currency, in the form of "thrones", which are mentioned moderately frequently, and credits [presumably the credits are local-issue currency for citizens who will never see the sky and thrones are interplanetary for rogue traders and planetary nobles], and people do get paid and buy things, but the greater Imperial apparatus does not deal with money; it commands that things be made and they are on pain of death.

The Departmento Munitorium and Administratum passes edicts specifying the quotas of things [tanks, men, food, tooling, industrial resources, etc.] that a planet must meet, and those planets meet those quotas. In exchange for meeting those quotas, the planetary lords keep their jobs and keep their lives, and receive the materials that their planet needs to survive that can't be produced indigenously.

Its hard to get a true sense of economy because there are a lot of contradictions... While the payment of tithe by local governments may be by edict, we've been shown the Mechanicum deals in money, the Inquisition deals in money, even those given as tithe to the Imperial Guard are paid... , its even been mentioned a couple of times that when locals work in the Fortress Monestaries of the Astartes those locals are paid. So while I think there is something of a command economy, certain edicts have to have material compensation built in. Its clearly stated in more than one novel that across regions of the Imperium companies pay exorbitant licencing fees to the Mechanicum for the right to produce different technologies. That clearly implies something less than a true command economy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing about that abomination of mixed messages and design inconsistencies is reasonable.

Who ever designed that thing did a nice job sculpting wise, they just need to be told not to drink 8 redbull and watch the matrix on loop while designing 40k miniatures as it's got dumb fluff, dumb design and it make the redemeptor dread look dumb by association.

Stealth dreadnaught would have been stretching the fluff but a light weight dreadnaught would have been suitable.

But this is a steath mech with a flame thrower and machine guns, both extremely stealthy weapons.
It then gets a heavy bolter pistol so it can shoot people in CC by wielding a weapon in it's CCW that it's simultaneously using to beat people with.
Clearly the adult supervision lacking that day.

Can’t defend the sidearm bolter, but there’s different uses for stealth. A lot of people get into the flawed mindset of thinking stealth can ONLY be Sam Fisher in splinter cell. Get in, kill, and get out without detection. That’s often unreasonable and unattainable.

Stealth can also be about getting into optimum engagement range without detection, which is exactly what this warsuit does.

The problem that people have with a stealthy dreadnought can be better expressed this way... a warsuit at 200 yards is as visible as a Marine at 100 yards or a human at 50yd... at 100 yards, its as visible as a marine at 30 yards or a human at 10 yards... at 30 yards its as visible as a marine at 5 yards.... and that's just visual taking the curvature of an earth sized planet into consideration.

I agree stealth has multiple meanings, but GW's description emphasizes sound dampening, speed, and an ability to deploy and move up along side phobos armored primaris... Its clearly trying to insinuate that its some how as stealthy as those infantry units.

Remember that the number of dice rolled for a weapon do not indicate the number of actual shots fired, but is a mechanism to determine how effective that weapon is over the undefined period of "the turn".

Heavy bolters fire self propelled rockets. Why would a conventional ballistic firearm be able to effectively outrange that?

I agree with the OP. Heavy Stubbers should not be anywhere near marine armies.and heavy bolters should always be more effective.

Setting aside the fluff concerns for a moment, Space Marines are getting a lot of new stratagems/chapter tactics/doctrines etc that affect 'Bolt' weapons in various ways.

Stubbers are similar to bolt weapons but *aren't* bolt weapons, so it might be that GW adds stubbers to things as additional smaller weapons that aren't affected by bolter buffs. As a sort of tuning lever for power purposes, or something like that.

I genuinely thought the switch to stubbers over heavy bolter in my opinion was that you can carry a hell of a lot more stubber rounds than heavy bolter rounds, which are something like 1.00cal which is... Quite large. Even bolsters are. 75cal so stubbers make sense from a suppressive/saturation weapon standpoint.

The stubbers on Astartes Vehicles are more sophisticated variants, it's worth keeping in mind.

They are Ironhail or Icarus variants.
The AdMech use Cognis variants.

The Guard get the generic crap.

Dakka: Primaris are too shiny! Too technologically advanced! What happened to setting's technological regress?!

Also Dakka: How dare they put lower tech, cheaper weapons on new marines! They look too archaic for SM!

 Stormonu wrote:
There were hints that the tech to make plasma weapons was lost

Such as 3 plasma guns per IG veteran squad, or 4 per IG command squad?

Ice_can wrote:
Stealth dreadnaught would have been stretching the fluff

It's 'stealth' because it's quieter than normal. If rubber pads glued on to baffle mechanisms and stop metal from clanging on other bits stretch your fluff, well...

If modern tanks can be camouflaged to be effectively hidden from the naked eye, then so can a walker that's a little smaller than a tank.
I don't see the problem. Its not as if the walker is ninja running through the enemy base or hiding in a cardboard box like Solid Snake.

Not moving tanks can get net camo, when they are parked. Not when they are running on their little legs shooting heavy bolter.
But hey, it's primaris so it has to be awesome and cool and credible, isn't it ?
It's just trash. Seriously, it's not even a dreadnought anymore. It's a "warsuit" whatever it means. I'm surprised it doesn't have any Hoover mode and any plasma hun though, as these tech are definitely so mainstream nowadays.

Creed hiding baneblades in bushes was a meme, just a meme, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously ! Oh God what have we done...

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

Well, if its shooting its weapons its no longer trying to be stealthy, now is it?
And you'd think if were trying to be sneaky it wouldn't be running, and would slowly get into position ahead of the enemy forces so it can launch an ambush. Kind of like what tanks can do.
Except it can do it better because its smaller, lighter and probably has a quieter engine.

There's a lot of things to nitpick. This isn't one of them.
I'd be more critical of the fact that it looks like a mini-Dreadknight and that the pilot is just asking for a lascannon to the face.

Perhaps think of it as recon not stealth - after all this is the British army recon armoured vehicle, it is not exactly stealthy...

Just pretend it has a predator field.

 godardc wrote:

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

Oh man even when I take my contacts out my vision isn't that bad! Go get your eyes checked!

Just take the Tyranid part and the genestealer part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that genestealers are 40k tyranid descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

 godardc wrote:
Not moving tanks can get net camo, when they are parked. Not when they are running on their little legs shooting heavy bolter.
But hey, it's primaris so it has to be awesome and cool and credible, isn't it ?
It's just trash. Seriously, it's not even a dreadnought anymore. It's a "warsuit" whatever it means. I'm surprised it doesn't have any Hoover mode and any plasma hun though, as these tech are definitely so mainstream nowadays.

Creed hiding baneblades in bushes was a meme, just a meme, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously ! Oh God what have we done...

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

So you're happy with space ships that literally fly through hell, fungus that acts like a soccer hooligan and space magic.

Yet a quiet mech suit is too much for you?

As somebody who likes some element of realism to the weaponry I like the subbers fro vehicles over bolters.

the longer barrel I imagine is due to the idea of all of the propulsion coming from the shell itself being fired, liek pretty much every firearm or cannon does now. the pressure and speed are produced by expansion behind the projectile.the projectile once it leaves the barrel is just mass being affected by gravity, wind, etc.

Bolters are cool due to they are per the fluff partially self propelled, so they are shot out of a short barrel but continue to accelerate due to fuel being part of the projectile. especially in the case of marines aquiring targets at super human frequency so they are reactingand need the bullet to travel faster out of the bolter gun to move to the next target before the projectile could have gained full speed.

while this is a very cool idea for infantry or short barreled weapons it seems like the ammo would be more expensive to manufacture and kind of pointless on a tank you are unlikely to be reaquiring targets at that rate and ratehr putting more than one shell on a harder target. rate of rife and cheapness of ammo would liekly be factors there.

 Ishagu wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Not moving tanks can get net camo, when they are parked. Not when they are running on their little legs shooting heavy bolter.
But hey, it's primaris so it has to be awesome and cool and credible, isn't it ?
It's just trash. Seriously, it's not even a dreadnought anymore. It's a "warsuit" whatever it means. I'm surprised it doesn't have any Hoover mode and any plasma hun though, as these tech are definitely so mainstream nowadays.

Creed hiding baneblades in bushes was a meme, just a meme, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously ! Oh God what have we done...

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

So you're happy with space ships that literally fly through hell, fungus that acts like a soccer hooligan and space magic.

Yet a quiet mech suit is too much for you?

The quiet mech suit is the best of those things, actually. The others are very 90s and trite.

 Ishagu wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Not moving tanks can get net camo, when they are parked. Not when they are running on their little legs shooting heavy bolter.
But hey, it's primaris so it has to be awesome and cool and credible, isn't it ?
It's just trash. Seriously, it's not even a dreadnought anymore. It's a "warsuit" whatever it means. I'm surprised it doesn't have any Hoover mode and any plasma hun though, as these tech are definitely so mainstream nowadays.

Creed hiding baneblades in bushes was a meme, just a meme, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously ! Oh God what have we done...

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

So you're happy with space ships that literally fly through hell, fungus that acts like a soccer hooligan and space magic.

Yet a quiet mech suit is too much for you?

Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

So why do the Fists have a 10th Company at all? Why not just go the Black Templars route?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Not moving tanks can get net camo, when they are parked. Not when they are running on their little legs shooting heavy bolter.
But hey, it's primaris so it has to be awesome and cool and credible, isn't it ?
It's just trash. Seriously, it's not even a dreadnought anymore. It's a "warsuit" whatever it means. I'm surprised it doesn't have any Hoover mode and any plasma hun though, as these tech are definitely so mainstream nowadays.

Creed hiding baneblades in bushes was a meme, just a meme, it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously ! Oh God what have we done...

Just take the marine part and the primaris part and think of them without remembering the link between the two.
If you forget, just for a moment, that primaris are 40k marine descendants, you couldn't guess it.
They are so far away they could be another faction.

So you're happy with space ships that literally fly through hell, fungus that acts like a soccer hooligan and space magic.

Yet a quiet mech suit is too much for you?

Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

That is factually incorrect. There have always been stealthy Astartes. Camo cloaks were not introduced to the game yesterday.
Also, take a look at the 10th company in the codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

So why do the Fists have a 10th Company at all? Why not just go the Black Templars route?

Three answers:

-1) Because GW sells Scouts/Phobos-armoured Marines, and the Imperial Fists are a Chapter of Space Marines, and you can paint any Space Marine thing you want bright yellow and call it an Imperial Fist (in the 3e book Wolf Guard didn't trust jump packs/teleportation, couldn't Deep Strike, and went everywhere on their own two feet, that's been excised from the lore because they don't want to keep writing "Terminators teleport into battle! Except for these ones, they're weird that way.")

-2) Maybe they shouldn't. Maybe if they're going to be bright yellow GLORY AND HONOUR maniacs the idea of giving any of them sniper rifles and camo-cloaks is kind of silly.

-3) GW's lore/models are guidelines, you're not bound to agree with or obey them. If you want to paint Imperial Fists Scouts/Phobos models in grey-on-black urban camo with just the roundel to indicate their Chapter allegiance, because maybe it makes more sense that your stealthy troops aren't bright yellow, then we salute your willingness to look beyond the obvious, more power to you.