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 Corennus wrote:
I agree that GW seems to be bringing out more and more Primaris at the cost of old (inverted commas) model becoming obsolete (cough CENTURIONS cough)

actually they've been pretty restrained that way in ensuring they don't utterly render any old classic units obselete, to the point where it's proably hurting the Primaris line (Primaris assault Marines would be a nice thing to get)

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

They're going to hate it because it's an infiltrating Dreadnought CCW not because of the gun arm. The gun arm options are fairly equivalent for UM Tac Docs.

Breton wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

They're going to hate it because it's an infiltrating Dreadnought CCW not because of the gun arm. The gun arm options are fairly equivalent for UM Tac Docs.

Agreed. I was just saying that the flamethrower seems the better choice IMO.

Orks, Tyranids, and Knights aren't going to be worried about a Warsuit infiltrating closer to them.

BrianDavion wrote:
"PRIMARIS ALL SUCK! OHH AND GW KEEPS INTRODUCING NEW THINGS AND MAKING THEM MORE POWERFUL TO ENCHOURAGE SALES! AND I DON'T SEE ANY CONTRIDICTION BETWEEN THESE STATEMENTS!"

Well you wouldn't would you

So your point of view is Primaris are powerful and there is no power creep?

Overall yes, must agree the Invictus is a platform that’s quick, durable, reasonably tough and attractively priced against the other options. It can’t however fill all the niches of it’s peers though…

I would agree that Dreadnoughts as a whole are in a tricky place right now. In short the main things non-primaris dreads offer are a good lascannon platform, and all dreads have a sweet strat for helping stay alive...

The longer thoughts are...

My experience of Dreads and Ven Dreads is that they very much glass hammers as their 8 wounds don't go very far. Their relatively small silhouette does make it easier to hide from enemy fire or potentially gain the bonus from over the larger dreads (especially when compared to the Invictus/ Redemptor). Whilst comparitively under gunned compared to Primaris designed critically you can configure those guns for whatever job you want, which is often anti-tank.

The Redemptor is awesomely full of massed dakka, but doesn't (yet?) have any options to match twin lascannons. Yes is got the Marco Plasma Incinerator, but it’s not quite the same… A bit more versatile than the lascannons, but then you have to manage the overheating issue of using it as anti-tank and any penalties to hit either makes itself toast it’s self double quick or ½ its damage output… Its volume of shots makes primarily an anti-infantry (light inf with the heavy onslaught, heavy infantry with the marco) platform.

The Contemptor chassis (mainly due to the Forge World options) is in a pretty sweet spot. More durable than the classic dreadnought, and whilst down on wounds compared to the primaris designs it does get an invulnerable save to help it stay alive. So long as you’re good with Forgeworld then the Mortis and Relic variants both allow you to go double ranged weapon (and add a cyclone) for maximum antitank firepower which is something that the Invictus (nor the Redemptor for that matter).

That and you’ve got that sweet ½ damage stratagem…

SeanDrake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
"PRIMARIS ALL SUCK! OHH AND GW KEEPS INTRODUCING NEW THINGS AND MAKING THEM MORE POWERFUL TO ENCHOURAGE SALES! AND I DON'T SEE ANY CONTRIDICTION BETWEEN THESE STATEMENTS!"

Well you wouldn't would you

So your point of view is Primaris are powerful and there is no power creep?

points wise GW's been pretty conservitive with Primaris Marines. intercessors where priced at 20? 21? PPM when they where introduced

 Corennus wrote:
I agree that GW seems to be bringing out more and more Primaris at the cost of old (inverted commas) model becoming obsolete (cough CENTURIONS cough)

I wouldn't consider Centurions old units. They're like really new and have none of the legacy of real old units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cornishman wrote:
Overall yes, must agree the Invictus is a platform that’s quick, durable, reasonably tough and attractively priced against the other options. It can’t however fill all the niches of it’s peers though…

I would agree that Dreadnoughts as a whole are in a tricky place right now. In short the main things non-primaris dreads offer are a good lascannon platform, and all dreads have a sweet strat for helping stay alive...

The longer thoughts are...

My experience of Dreads and Ven Dreads is that they very much glass hammers as their 8 wounds don't go very far. Their relatively small silhouette does make it easier to hide from enemy fire or potentially gain the bonus from over the larger dreads (especially when compared to the Invictus/ Redemptor). Whilst comparitively under gunned compared to Primaris designed critically you can configure those guns for whatever job you want, which is often anti-tank.

The Redemptor is awesomely full of massed dakka, but doesn't (yet?) have any options to match twin lascannons. Yes is got the Marco Plasma Incinerator, but it’s not quite the same… A bit more versatile than the lascannons, but then you have to manage the overheating issue of using it as anti-tank and any penalties to hit either makes itself toast it’s self double quick or ½ its damage output… Its volume of shots makes primarily an anti-infantry (light inf with the heavy onslaught, heavy infantry with the marco) platform.

The Contemptor chassis (mainly due to the Forge World options) is in a pretty sweet spot. More durable than the classic dreadnought, and whilst down on wounds compared to the primaris designs it does get an invulnerable save to help it stay alive. So long as you’re good with Forgeworld then the Mortis and Relic variants both allow you to go double ranged weapon (and add a cyclone) for maximum antitank firepower which is something that the Invictus (nor the Redemptor for that matter).

That and you’ve got that sweet ½ damage stratagem…

Of some note, neither of the Primaris dreads has any antitank options, and Ven Dreads shoot really, really well.

And the 8 wounds goes far enough, since they don't degrade. Honestly, getting knees is a major drawback for a dreadnought, since a dready is fighting as best as it ever can all the way to the end, but other vehicles loose power only 5 or 6 wounds in.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...Of some note, neither of the Primaris dreads has any antitank options...

Plasma Redemptor? d6 2-damage shots is roughly equivalent to 2 d6-damage shots from a twin lascannon. Melee? Someone was testing Space Wolf Invictors at my FLGS yesterday and the WS 2+/5A on the charge certainly tore holes in my Custodians.

Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

Could make an all dreadnaught list work pretty well if they introduced something like that. I am gonna proxy 3 of the invictus dreads this weekend, want to see how well they work with the close range flamer build.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

Could make an all dreadnaught list work pretty well if they introduced something like that. I am gonna proxy 3 of the invictus dreads this weekend, want to see how well they work with the close range flamer build.

I'd really like to hear your hot take after you play.

Maybe we'll get lucky and get a generic dreadnought HQ
Unfortunately it's totally impossible for Primaris since the redemptor burns out the sarcophagus.

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

maybe a giant dreadnought with a volcano lance on each arm!

I mean you aren't wrong.

Here's the thing, old dreads still have a point with stand off fire power with las and missiles and no degrading until dead.

Redemptors are really an answer for a problem space marines don't have, especially now so they don't really have a point.

Invictor warsuits have a more robust weapons system and flexible deployment options and a unique placement in their use.

So all dreads aren't dead, but redemptors just don't really have a reason, where as invictors like the look o them or hate them, actually have a place in a list to fit a playstyle.

So I could see old dreads along side invictors, but I doubt unless someone just really loves the redemptor you'll see them around much.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

maybe a giant dreadnought with a volcano lance on each arm!

How about Repulsor Laser Destroyers.

That said, it can't be that efficient or coherent. It would be 1 Laser Destroyer w/ Co-Axial Flamer, 1 Dreadnought Chainfist with integrated Ironhail Heavy Stubber, a dreadnought jump pack, and some sort of anti-aircraft gun on it's head that's of insufficient strength, damage, and rate of fire to meaningfully threaten aircraft. Also, 2 Ironhail Heavy Stubbers in it's chest.

I do like very weak AA weapons mounted on everything, go marines !

I like the redemptor in its more classic Dreadnought role, as a light tank that moves directly behind the front line. It has enough range to force the opponent to engage and is just enough of a melee threat to make an opponent hesitate.

The invictor is really just the same thing with a shorter range that does the same thing for Vanguard. I think I would find it more exciting if it wasn't for Tactical Reserves. I'd rather deepstrike my infantry than a light armor unit that would do just as well in the deployment zone.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Cornishman wrote:


That and you’ve got that sweet ½ damage stratagem…

Of some note, neither of the Primaris dreads has any antitank options, and Ven Dreads shoot really, really well.

And the 8 wounds goes far enough, since they don't degrade. Honestly, getting knees is a major drawback for a dreadnought, since a dready is fighting as best as it ever can all the way to the end, but other vehicles loose power only 5 or 6 wounds in.

As a side note, the Invictor Warsuit is a Warsuit, not a Dreadnought. It does not have the keyword. Armour of Contempt works - its a vehicle, Duty Eternal does not, it's not a Dreadnought.

Breton wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Cornishman wrote:


That and you’ve got that sweet ½ damage stratagem…

Of some note, neither of the Primaris dreads has any antitank options, and Ven Dreads shoot really, really well.

And the 8 wounds goes far enough, since they don't degrade. Honestly, getting knees is a major drawback for a dreadnought, since a dready is fighting as best as it ever can all the way to the end, but other vehicles loose power only 5 or 6 wounds in.

As a side note, the Invictor Warsuit is a Warsuit, not a Dreadnought. It does not have the keyword. Armour of Contempt works - its a vehicle, Duty Eternal does not, it's not a Dreadnought.

Agree with you about the Invictor not being a dread so being unable to use Duty Eternal. The 1/2 Dam strat comments were me showing what dreads have to offer, that the invictor doesnt (or can't).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

maybe a giant dreadnought with a volcano lance on each arm!

If you're making it that big, you may as well add some big guns on the shoulders, give it void shields, and maybe the ability to use Titanic Feet...

Centurions were an abomination and a really bad implementation of the much cooler centurions of my childhood

https://youtu.be/hIajdXHRmJ4

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we got the base model for Primaris, now the stealthy one. The next cliché option would be a heavily armoured one which will probably be slow so it'll have a big gun or maybe 2 like a bargain bin castellan

I'd like a tougher, purely shooty version, yes, yes!

maybe a giant dreadnought with a volcano lance on each arm!

If you're making it that big, you may as well add some big guns on the shoulders, give it void shields, and maybe the ability to use Titanic Feet...

nah shoulder mounted missle launchers! and we can call it the Angry Feline!

I get that reference

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The point of dreadnoughts is TwinLas+Missile.

The Invictor is at best a mild inconvenience to tanks, and while VenDreds don't degrade, it does and is low toughness.

It begins degrading at the same point that a Ven Dread is on its last wound.

It also takes wounds from str 3,4,5,8 at the same clip as t7 does. Only easier to wound it with str6,7 firepower. I'd be real glad if someone is focusing Autocannons on the distraction carnifex. Means it achieved its job.

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The point of dreadnoughts is TwinLas+Missile.

The Invictor is at best a mild inconvenience to tanks, and while VenDreds don't degrade, it does and is low toughness.

It begins degrading at the same point that a Ven Dread is on its last wound.

It also takes wounds from str 3,4,5,8 at the same clip as t7 does. Only easier to wound it with str6,7 firepower. I'd be real glad if someone is focusing Autocannons on the distraction carnifex. Means it achieved its job.

The t6 is a big deal. Just not vs typical anti tank weapons. When you are t6 you now become vunerable to middle str weapons - which tend to have high ROF and multi damage - so if they are wounding you at a high rate...you are going down quick. Then again it is pretty cheap. Its a good unit and maybe a tad undercosted but it's not gamebreaking. Most of the time you aren't even going to be able to utilize its infiltrate ability very well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The point of dreadnoughts is TwinLas+Missile.

The Invictor is at best a mild inconvenience to tanks, and while VenDreds don't degrade, it does and is low toughness.

It begins degrading at the same point that a Ven Dread is on its last wound.

It also takes wounds from str 3,4,5,8 at the same clip as t7 does. Only easier to wound it with str6,7 firepower. I'd be real glad if someone is focusing Autocannons on the distraction carnifex. Means it achieved its job.

The t6 is a big deal. Just not vs typical anti tank weapons. When you are t6 you now become vunerable to middle str weapons - which tend to have high ROF and multi damage - so if they are wounding you at a high rate...you are going down quick. Then again it is pretty cheap. Its a good unit and maybe a tad undercosted but it's not gamebreaking. Most of the time you aren't even going to be able to utilize its infiltrate ability very well.

Infiltrate is probably one of it's best qualities, since it'll definitely be obnoxious if it starts from 9" from the enemy deploy zone.

It's got some play, I still suspect that it's either going to be a ravenguard or ironhands prefered model over the other chapters.
As I suspect they are the only chapters that can stop it being just being demolished if it's deployed on the line and your going second.

ChargerIIC wrote:I like the redemptor in its more classic Dreadnought role, as a light tank that moves directly behind the front line. It has enough range to force the opponent to engage and is just enough of a melee threat to make an opponent hesitate.

The invictor is really just the same thing with a shorter range that does the same thing for Vanguard. I think I would find it more exciting if it wasn't for Tactical Reserves. I'd rather deepstrike my infantry than a light armor unit that would do just as well in the deployment zone.

I really like to push my redemptor up w my intercessors and use it as a direct fire support unit, I plan on doing the same with Infiltrators & Warsuit. To be fair I do basically the same thing with my Legion Relic Contemptor tactical squads.

It'll be cool for apoc to have a warsuit directly supporting an entire concealed positions detachment. in 40k it depends on objectives, etc...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The point of dreadnoughts is TwinLas+Missile.

The Invictor is at best a mild inconvenience to tanks, and while VenDreds don't degrade, it does and is low toughness.

It begins degrading at the same point that a Ven Dread is on its last wound.

It also takes wounds from str 3,4,5,8 at the same clip as t7 does. Only easier to wound it with str6,7 firepower. I'd be real glad if someone is focusing Autocannons on the distraction carnifex. Means it achieved its job.

The t6 is a big deal. Just not vs typical anti tank weapons. When you are t6 you now become vunerable to middle str weapons - which tend to have high ROF and multi damage - so if they are wounding you at a high rate...you are going down quick. Then again it is pretty cheap. Its a good unit and maybe a tad undercosted but it's not gamebreaking. Most of the time you aren't even going to be able to utilize its infiltrate ability very well.

Infiltrate is probably one of it's best qualities, since it'll definitely be obnoxious if it starts from 9" from the enemy deploy zone.

Only if you go first and seize the initate is a thing. Otherwise deploying it aggressively is just going to get it killed or mobbed.