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I have a few landspeeders in my Ravenwing force which can work well. They have several advantages, even over IH.

The ability to get an invuln if they advance (with heavy flamers, this does not curtail their options)
Enemies get -1 to hit at any range while close t the darkshroud
Bonuses to hit a target for 1 CP strat (Signal the Attack) which offsets the movement, or helps a Typhoon unit that has sat back at range and is stationary.
Rerolls to hit, wound and ignore cover from supporting characters that can keep up.

Even then they are still not the best unit, but they at least are no loner worthless.

 Crimson wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

It has two mediocre guns. This is not good use of CP or even that stratagem. People always talk about stratagems like CP was infinite. Now that you can't reasonably ally an IG CP battery, it isn't any more.

I didnt realize its mediocre to spend 1CP to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons when firing 18 S5 AP-2 D1 shots, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s with bolter fusillades, when the devastator doctrine is active.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

Wrong. IH land speeders dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and they get to re-roll 1s, when shooting with a heavy weapon, when the devastator doctrine is active. Any other chapter can use twin heavy flamers and auto hit, ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A successor chapter can use long range marksmen to increase flamer range to 11". Use a unit of 3 models to increase the movement to 20". Use them as a successor chapter and give them twin HB with long range marksmen, and bolter fusillades, that 39" range, re-rolling 1s to hit. Leave them in cover, standing still, and shoot away. I wouldnt use any other weapon except flamers and HB, because those are to expensive.

Twin Heavy Flamers is an Index-only option.

All Space Marine Codex chapters can put Big Guns Never Tire on a Land Speeder unit, and every model can ignore the -1 from moving, which is nice for 1CP.

Which is still an option until it isn't. Can people stop pretending that it's not legal to use these units and if you have a gaming group that will except them, they will be going forward

I didn't say it wasn't legal.

But it costs more points and might preclude codex uber-doctrines.

Edit: Actually, according to the FAQ, it appears that the Index version is in fact illegal for play, as the datasheet has been updated since the Index publication.

 p5freak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

It has two mediocre guns. This is not good use of CP or even that stratagem. People always talk about stratagems like CP was infinite. Now that you can't reasonably ally an IG CP battery, it isn't any more.

I didnt realize its mediocre to spend 1CP to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons when firing 18 S5 AP-2 D1 shots, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s with bolter fusillades, when the devastator doctrine is active.

Then you'd be known as the guy that thought Fusilades was a good Successor rule for whatever bizarre reason in this bizarre attempt to make a combo for Speeders...

 p5freak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

It has two mediocre guns. This is not good use of CP or even that stratagem. People always talk about stratagems like CP was infinite. Now that you can't reasonably ally an IG CP battery, it isn't any more.

I didnt realize its mediocre to spend 1CP to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons when firing 18 S5 AP-2 D1 shots, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s with bolter fusillades, when the devastator doctrine is active.

Now you do.

^can't do it anyways, illegal load out. Index options appear to be out, according to the FAQ.

I do think Big Guns is a useful Strat for Speeders though.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^can't do it anyways, illegal load out. Index options appear to be out, according to the FAQ.

Gonna need a source on an FAQ killing the Index.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^can't do it anyways, illegal load out. Index options appear to be out, according to the FAQ.

Gonna need a source on an FAQ killing the Index.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en.pdf

"Q. Some datasheets that were in the 2017 edition of Codex:
Space Marines are not in the 2019 edition, but are still
in Index: Imperium 1. Can the versions from Index:
Imperium 1 still be used?
A: Yes, provided an updated datasheet is not found for
them elsewhere (e.g. in a codex supplement)."

Which indicates to me that an updated datasheet kills the Index one. Thus, the Land Speeder datasheet in the current book means the Index one cannot be used.

They make a great sacrificial charger w/ FLY, Vehicle & Explodes!.

Trick is to keep them cheap, move over and behind the target unit and charge from the rear. Also, it's large footprint helps triangle locking down units. Then you fall back towards the enemy and shoot in the next turn.

They'd be worth more if they had T6 for their current point cost.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Which indicates to me that an updated datasheet kills the Index one. Thus, the Land Speeder datasheet in the current book means the Index one cannot be used.

The Index wargear flowchart still applies. (handy link) What they're doing is mandating that the abilities from an updated codex sheet override earlier index options, so you cant do something like run an Index Chaplain for the (old) chapter master grade melee reroll aura. The codex Land Speeder can still take wargear from its Index entry (paying the appropriate Codex costs of course).

It's a future proofing measure, not a kill the Index measure.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Which indicates to me that an updated datasheet kills the Index one. Thus, the Land Speeder datasheet in the current book means the Index one cannot be used.

The Index wargear flowchart still applies. (handy link) What they're doing is mandating that the abilities from an updated codex sheet override earlier index options, so you cant do something like run an Index Chaplain for the (old) chapter master grade melee reroll aura. The codex Land Speeder can still take wargear from its Index entry (paying the appropriate Codex costs of course).

It's a future proofing measure, not a kill the Index measure.

Oh, I stand corrected. That's great, if nothing has come along to override that chart since.

Double Multimelta Land Speeders, here we come!

Nevermind.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Oh, I stand corrected. That's great, if nothing has come along to override that chart since.

Double Multimelta Land Speeders, here we come!

Its a bit of a bizzare FAQ question to pick as it effectively didnt change how anything worked (the flowchart incorporates the FAQ answer), but I can understand wanting to re-iterate it given that we're now in a context where there are multiple codices for the same faction as opposed to just indices and a single codex. I think the important thing to remember is that so far as GW is concerned, wargear options and datasheets are not one and the same thing.

Very happy that my Landspeeder was painted Salamanders with MM and HF:


-

Personally I think they're potentially a decent choice for Iron Hands when armed with a HB and Typhoon ML. 3x S5 AP-2 and 2x S8 AP-3 D6 dmg shots re-rolling 1s to hit for 87 points doesn't sound too shabby to me. Especially considering it's coming from a flying platform with 16" movement and can fire both weapons at 36". I'm planning on trying out a list with a few of them.

is there merit to SW land speeder storms, and a squad of scouts with PP, PG, and combi-p?

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I feel like many units just got hit hard with core rule changes and the designers just couldn't be bothered to try and think of a way for them to feel viable. Land speeders are one of those units. Every unit these days has a zillion bespoke rules yet these aged units, that have been with us forever, are just questionably expensive, mobile but poor hitting fire platforms.

I mean would it kill them to give them like a stable firing platform rule ? Even if they limited the movement a little make it avoid the negative that would be great. Ways without needing to use strats for it, or play IH, same goes for most of those kinds of units that a few books had. As I used to love Sentinels and Speeders but now they are mostly stationary gun stations which feels really counter intuitive to their use.

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

Lets just imagine you run marines and don't command point farm, or in fact don't think it's cool to need to spend 1 CP every turn, for one unit of speeders, still the vast majority of them lost their role. I used speeders a lot in editions past, I do know they lost their goodness and role with the edition change. It's like you want to argue the point just to be silly. Silly poster.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Lets just imagine you run marines and don't command point farm, or in fact don't think it's cool to need to spend 1 CP every turn, for one unit of speeders, still the vast majority of them lost their role. I used speeders a lot in editions past, I do know they lost their goodness and role with the edition change. It's like you want to argue the point just to be silly. Silly poster.

If you dont want to spend 1CP every turn (which you dont have to, only when you move), play them as IH. When the devastator doctrine is active they dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Lets just imagine you run marines and don't command point farm, or in fact don't think it's cool to need to spend 1 CP every turn, for one unit of speeders, still the vast majority of them lost their role. I used speeders a lot in editions past, I do know they lost their goodness and role with the edition change. It's like you want to argue the point just to be silly. Silly poster.

If you dont want to spend 1CP every turn (which you dont have to, only when you move), play them as IH. When the devastator doctrine is active they dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Again this gets to core balance issue/game design flaw in 8th. A unit should be able to stand on it's own for it's point cost. Once you start throwing in if you use this strat or that trait your essentially admitting the unit isn't good except when it's propped up by a crutch.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Again this gets to core balance issue/game design flaw in 8th. A unit should be able to stand on it's own for it's point cost. Once you start throwing in if you use this strat or that trait your essentially admitting the unit isn't good except when it's propped up by a crutch.

I see, a unit has to work on its own, without any buffs, of any kind. Tell me, what unit is good without any support from anything ? No chapter tactic, no re-rolls, no plus to hit, no stratagems, nothing.How do you even play without any buffs ? Thats almost impossible, buffs are everywhere.

 p5freak wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Again this gets to core balance issue/game design flaw in 8th. A unit should be able to stand on it's own for it's point cost. Once you start throwing in if you use this strat or that trait your essentially admitting the unit isn't good except when it's propped up by a crutch.

I see, a unit has to work on its own, without any buffs, of any kind. Tell me, what unit is good without any support from anything ? No chapter tactic, no re-rolls, no plus to hit, no stratagems, nothing.How do you even play without any buffs ? Thats almost impossible, buffs are everywhere.

There's a few units that can. Infantry, Aggressors, Ravagers, Scarabs (debatable for some), etc. Only a few units that are like that are broken at all.

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Lets just imagine you run marines and don't command point farm, or in fact don't think it's cool to need to spend 1 CP every turn, for one unit of speeders, still the vast majority of them lost their role. I used speeders a lot in editions past, I do know they lost their goodness and role with the edition change. It's like you want to argue the point just to be silly. Silly poster.

If you dont want to spend 1CP every turn (which you dont have to, only when you move), play them as IH. When the devastator doctrine is active they dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

I point out again, if a unit only works without bleeding CPs with really one sub faction of a faction, that isn't some kind of proof it works, it doesn't. If you wanted things to sit still and shoot guns, you have ample amounts of tougher tanks that can do that, you can take them on infantry and sit in cover and be tougher and more reliable.

Speeders have been, since their induction for as long as I played a flimsy but fast paced shooting support unit. They were a glass hammer, that could zip out snap off shots and and if they survive reposition. They also could waste a turn or two to to get flank or rear shots on vulnerable vehicles, mobile hunter killer type units.

Side and rear means nothing, takes that role away, if you keep them mobile in any way, they hit worse, if you sit them back and shoot them with buffs you could already do that on more durable platforms. Just to be clear, yes they can do that in part with IH, but lets just assume every marine player doesn't use IH, to them, they kinda lost most of their use aside from giving you the feel goods because you love them. If they need a CP use a turn to make them work as intended for decades, they are no longer any good. A unit should be able to work on its own, but only get better with support. Support is a buffing mechanic, not one to give you any semblance of merit in the first place.

I could go list off a ton of units that work well without bleeding CPs into them every turn just to make them do their job. I'm not going to waste my time or the readers who I assume they all can think up a number of these units as well. Speeders aren't one of those units. Hard as it may be to believe some units either have always been crap ( ogryns for one example ) or have been made pointless because times changed and they lost their utility for various mentioned reasons ( land speeders being one of those units ).

So yeah, tossing CPs turn after turn into a unit of speeders is the model wargaming version of throwing good money after bad. Just because one marine supplement gives it legs doesn't mean it can walk outside that situation. Though yes if you were to use them, IH would be the ones currently to use them with. Somehow I doubt we will see people run them with IH though as still you have better units to use those inherent buffs on that will take up those points so even in their best case scenario they aren't going to end up worth it. Why ? Because as much as I wish they weren't left to die, they are bad. They lost their point and until GW stop being so lazy and actually give every unit some thought into their rules and use, or change the current core rules to make them better they are just one of the victims of change.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

I point out again, if a unit only works without bleeding CPs with really one sub faction of a faction, that isn't some kind of proof it works, it doesn't. If you wanted things to sit still and shoot guns, you have ample amounts of tougher tanks that can do that, you can take them on infantry and sit in cover and be tougher and more reliable.

A land speeder with two HB is 65 pts. It has T5 W6 and can be in cover for a 2+ sv, its not a huge vehicle. A dev squad with two HB is 85 pts., it has T4 W5 and also a 2+ sv in cover. The infantry squad is more expensive, less tough, less reliable, it can be shutdown by charging. The landspeeder would fly away, and can still shoot. The twin HB land speeder works with every faction, without any CP.

I don't even think you know how cover actually works for vehicles if you think its so easy to get a cover save with a land speeder and that somehow it's better for its role than say a squad of say stalker primaris sitting in some cover.

Ok, lets look at this shall we, the primaris is 85, less toughness 4 more wounds. Easier to get into cover, does 2D straight at same range, less shots by 1, more robust use. Harder to get rid of and is useful in say all the marine builds, not just IH.

No one would just take the 2 HB in a dev squad, as well it has a sgt that also can help out the squad. The land speeder is also pretty shut down with a charge because it will probably be dead, though I doubt it would be charged and instead it would just be shot dead.

Ends up just as immobile as the dev squad, or primaris stalkers, or even just bolt rifle marines, thought bolt rifle marines are actually mobile. You're just wrong, and now you're moving goal posts when my point stands. It lost the role it once had, you have tons of tougher options for a sit there and shoot platform for whatever guns they bring, though maybe 2 flamers could be viable in niche circumstances.

Sure could you buy it for 2 heavy bolters and sit it there like a sad sack, sure you could. Do you see lots of high end lists doing that ? I sure don't, because it sucks. If you're buying a land speeder to sit there and shoot heavy bolters, something inside makes me believe you're doing it wrong and being a bit dishonest with a player who actually wants to know if something is good or bad.

I still used drop pods when they were much worse, the difference is I knew they were bad, but I still used them I didn't say they were good. I kind of wonder if you even run land speeders.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't even think you know how cover actually works for vehicles if you think its so easy to get a cover save with a land speeder and that somehow it's better for its role than say a squad of say stalker primaris sitting in some cover.

I know how cover works for vehicles. And its pretty easy for a landspeeder. Judging from what you say, i think you dont know how it really works. I have posted in threads about vehicle cover in the past. You may wanna take a look at those.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Ok, lets look at this shall we, the primaris is 85, less toughness 4 more wounds. Easier to get into cover, does 2D straight at same range, less shots by 1, more robust use. Harder to get rid of and is useful in say all the marine builds, not just IH.

Explain to me how primaris can get two HB. There must be a rule change which i missed. Your stalker bolt rifles only have S4, they do less wounds than a HB, which reduces their effectiveness. Depending on what you shoot at, it might do the same damage, but your infantry is less tough, and costs more points.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Ends up just as immobile as the dev squad, or primaris stalkers, or even just bolt rifle marines, thought bolt rifle marines are actually mobile. You're just wrong, and now you're moving goal posts when my point stands. It lost the role it once had, you have tons of tougher options for a sit there and shoot platform for whatever guns they bring, though maybe 2 flamers could be viable in niche circumstances.

And what are those tougher options, for the same or less points ? Its not infantry, they only have T4.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

I still used drop pods when they were much worse, the difference is I knew they were bad, but I still used them I didn't say they were good. I kind of wonder if you even run land speeders.

I do play land speeders, i speak from experience, you dont. Sometimes with two HB, sometimes with two heavy flamers. Anything else isnt worth it, because they arent very tough.

Well if you knew how the cover worked you'd know you need to both block lots of view to the vehicle while also having it in area terrain which isn't always available at the same time, as well you might as well at that point just use a slight more expensive whirlwind which you can hide completely a bit easier with the speeder being on the flight stand.

The primaris don't have heavy bolters, but the bolt rifle and stalker bolt rifle are can both be considered similar in use to a HB for all intents and purposes and for any army that goes into the tac doctrine bolt rifles bolt rifles function better and stalkers function better as heavies with the higher damage giving it more versatile use over a heavy bolter. All the heavy bolter does is have a better to wound vs toughness 8 or higher. I'd go so far as to say the infantry are tougher, not by number in their toughness stat but by virtue of more wounds for a min sized squad you would be taking anyways. As well ease of cover use as they just need to be in area terrain, lower profile, they don't need to be both obscured and in area terrain

toughness 5 is not appreciably higher than toughness 4 to most weapons that will be hitting those same targets. However what is a tougher option for a heavy bolter ? Razorback would be one, Dakka pred is 2, Inceptors is 3 which can deep strike, have same toughness, more shots arguably more expensive but they are unlike the speeder actually mobile firing platforms without spending CP in them and put out considerably more fire and can off the deep strike or on the move just with less range.

If you are playing land speeders just to sit there with 2 HBs I do call your experience very much in question, as my own long experience shows me their role, is gone. If they are relegated to an immobile heavy bolter turret that is far from mobile fire support/flanker they once were. Leaving the only role they can still perform being a dual flamer mobile platform. Which is tragic in my opinion.

They don't put out firepower you can't get better else where with HBs, no one is going to be dropping CPs on them when they can spend them on units that actually work well. Especially when basic troop squads can put out similar fire power while already filling the troop tax you're obliged to spend anyways.


Edit: You can and probably will keep arguing the point, have at it. I've put out information for any player who may want to hash out if or not a speeder is worth it to them. The bottom line, they lost what role they once had. If you believe they work for you in a similar role now, more power to you. All I know is, I used speeders in every imaginable configuration through the years. The fact you are saying they have two viable builds now says more to make my own case for me than anything I could further add at this point. As the typhoon and various builds of tornado were all workable awhile back, they aren't now. You can't even get good use out of single melta speeders to vehicle snipe without bleeding away your CPs into them just to do a tactic that was a pretty old trick they always held. If all of that doesn't show they lost their point, I doubt anything I say would ever convince you. Though it really isn't about convincing you it's about putting the information out there for a player who actually doesn't know. They can make up their mind based on all that has been said.

Trust me, I wish I was wrong but on this I'm not. I have a great many speeders and I enjoyed running them in all the various ways I could for years, I knew after the first couple times I brought them out this edition the glory days were behind them. You'd be forgiven to be a new player, look at a speeder and say " what is the point of this exactly ? " As it doesn't really have one aside from being a unit in the codex to fill space.

5 stalker intercessors have 5 shots vs 6. Str 4 vs 5. But also have ap 2 vs 1 and D2 vs D1. Lower shots and str but higher ap and damage. Will probably do about the same damage if averaged across different targets.

5 intercessors are about the same as a land speeder against d1 weapons and both are quite good against those. Here T5 is almost as good as the 4 extra wounds. Land speeder maybe a bit worse but at least its fully functioning at 1w unlike the intercessors.

They both suffer against D2 weapons, about same against plasma(any str 8-9 D2) since T5 matters there. Against autocannons(any str 6 - 7 D2) though, landspeeder is worse since they both wound on 3s.

The big difference is that against D3 or d6 weapons the intercessors are way better. 2 Thunderhammer attacks kills a speeder while only 2 intercessors. A Lascannon can only kill 1 intercessor but a lucky wound roll can one hit the speeder.

I would definetly go for the intercessors when factoring in survivability. Especially since they are troops and work wonders in huge numbers and they can fight in CC too due to number of attacks they get.

Klickor wrote:
5 stalker intercessors have 5 shots vs 6. Str 4 vs 5. But also have ap 2 vs 1 and D2 vs D1. Lower shots and str but higher ap and damage. Will probably do about the same damage if averaged across different targets.

5 intercessors are about the same as a land speeder against d1 weapons and both are quite good against those. Here T5 is almost as good as the 4 extra wounds. Land speeder maybe a bit worse but at least its fully functioning at 1w unlike the intercessors.

They both suffer against D2 weapons, about same against plasma(any str 8-9 D2) since T5 matters there. Against autocannons(any str 6 - 7 D2) though, landspeeder is worse since they both wound on 3s.

The big difference is that against D3 or d6 weapons the intercessors are way better. 2 Thunderhammer attacks kills a speeder while only 2 intercessors. A Lascannon can only kill 1 intercessor but a lucky wound roll can one hit the speeder.

I would definetly go for the intercessors when factoring in survivability. Especially since they are troops and work wonders in huge numbers and they can fight in CC too due to number of attacks they get.

Which is all I'm saying.

Yep, fully agree with what you posted. Just wanted to help your argument with some numbers

I do see landspeeders might be viable as IH as super mobile flankers who can kill small troops squads and are very hard to pin down against lists with rather short shooting ranges or good terrain that keeps them out of LOS from the big guns. But as static platforms they look like trash. Better just fill out your brigade with scout bikers or the 37pts sentry guns if you are gonna feel fast attack dakka for cheap