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I'd never had thought the poll to be as close as it is.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I like Perturabo in the sense that he has a very realistic martyr complex, given that he was given the gak jobs and he always felt the Eye of Terror staring at him since he landed on Olympia. His bitterness is partly justified in the fact that really does do the backbone work of both when was a loyalist and a traitor.

This doesn't really hold water. Perturabo wasn't the only one who got the hard jobs- the niche of the Death Guard and the Salamanders was literally "we fight on Death Worlds". They and the Iron Warriors all three were called in for attrition based warfare, yet one Legion took the responability in stride and never turned traitor, while another did rebel but for completely unrelated reasons (Mortarion didn't resent his job, only the cause he was fighting for).

So it's hard to buy the "Mortarion rebelled because he was underappreciated" argument. Really, he rebelled because he nuked his own planet in a fit of rage, feared retribution and sided with Horus, who forgave him. He felt slighted by the Emperor but if you look at the events as they happened most of those "slights" seem to be self-perceived. Yeah, the Emperor was an unfeeling sociopath, but he was like that to almost everybody. Yeah, many of the other Primarchs were dickheads, like Fulgrim, but they were all pretty dick'ish to each other. Yet most of the other Primarchs could cope with that while Perturabo couldn't. People like to act like he was this underappreciated and undervalued asset that no one wanted to be around, but really he was more akin to the 4chan user that complains about not having a girlfriend but absolutely refuses to take any steps whatsoever to improve himself.

He's certainly more interesting then Dorn though. But that's mostly because Dorn is a very simple character. Nuance is interesting, purity of purpose and a strong sense of self is admirable but also boring.

Perurbio, primarch of the Incel Warriors. Whineron within! Whineron without!

BrianDavion wrote:
Perturabo, primarch of the Incel Warriors.

That would explain the whole daemonculaba thing, though, wouldn't it?

(Funny thing is, Perty and the IW were originally intended to be Slaanesh-worshippers when they were first mentioned in RT-era fluff.)

DanielFM wrote:

Plus, new background in the IF supplement basically says IF see the Indomitus Crusade as Guilliman accepting he was wrong and Dorn was right. So, moral victory

What says that?

Dorn. Because memes.

Ironically while Dorn was stuck in defensive siege warfare, Perturabo was actually much better at that. Perturabo understood the idea of strategic depth better than Dorn and understood the reality that all fortresses will fall given enough effort and manpower. As happened in siege of Terra. As such Perturabo never made single indomitable line of defense stacked with guns. Rather he made it so that after the first line, there's the second line and after that the third line and the enemy is drowning themselves in their own dead as they try to get through the defenses. This can most perfectly be seen in Iron Cage where there was a kill zone after kill zone. As the enemy advances they lose more and more manpower and the farther they advance, the more bloody the retreat will be as they have to get through those killzones again. And giving Dorn's and his legion's pain fetish it certainly didn't help 'em either.

Dorn on the other hand is the better attacker instead of fighting everywhere taking the defense out one by one, he scouts out for weak points and then concentrates force on those losing much less men than Perturabo does.

So ironically, Dorn would be better for Perturabo's role, and Perturabo better for Dorn's role.

Perturabo's design for defending Palace of Terra would have bled the traitor legions drier than Sahara desert.

The way the HHseries, and siege is turning out, I'm growing more fond of Perturabo. In his Primarchs story, the IW are in a standstill against Hrud, and the whole campaign is literally a waste of time for him and his legion as they age and wither away.

Plus hes a mini war gamer.

Plus I like his style.


Lots of ranged weaponry. I especially like those wrist cannons and those shoulder lasers. And apparently his suite is datalinked to Iron Warriors artillery allowing him to call artillery strikes directly from his power armour systems.

So many other primarchs look like they're geared for melee combat. Perturabo on the other hand looks like someone who shoots the enemy before they get a chance to go melee on him.

And those wrist cannons are excellent for melee combat as well because they leave both hands free to hold melee weapons and still be able to shoot at things.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Perturabo, the bitter traitor with a bloody resume a mile long and a reason to use it, willingly accepting damnation to pursue vengeance, just works better for me than Dorn who comes off (perhaps unfairly at times) as a stuffy golden boy. His absurdly manchild-ey initial violent denial of Horus's rebellion in flight of the eisenstein was really silly (though unfortunately not unique in that series) and sticks out in my mind.

That said, it also sounds like they've expanded on both more in the HH series than I've read into with the first few books.

Ive never read Flight of the Einstien, but if Dorn violently denying the accusations about Horus' betrayal is silly, then I wonder how you would react if you were die-hard loyal to the Imperium to the point where your whole existance is dedicated to its success and protection, first hearing about the most trusted and accomplished of your brothers and warmaster of the entire Imperium's military might just suddenly and unexpectedly betrayed the Empire he worked so hard to bring to glory by randomly massacaring nearly 3 entite legions with half of the other legions fighting by his side...

Are you telling me you would believe the accusations and not take offense to it?

I changed my mind. Portobello pizza was top dog but I think I prefer Rogan Josh now..

Sanguinious!

Which Primarch held the Eternity Gate for Dorn, against Perturabo?!?!

#teamedward

Dorn, because between him and Pert, I'd want to hit Pert with a shovel, but Dorn seems like he could be fun to see drunk.

I like Dorn more for his dedication to the Imperium and all the work that he did to try to protect it, but when it comes to the tabletop

Honestly I find Dorn boring. in most tof the HH books his words are wise enough, he is a loyal son of the big E... but he is quite boring.

Puterabo is a villian with a persecution complex.. oh woe is me, i am never given enough credit... its interesting and he makes a good foil to Dorn's straight man but comes off as the far more interesting imo.

Neither. Perturabo is a petulant whiny brat, so if I had a gun to my head I'd pick Dorn, I suppose. But they're both nowhere close to the most intersting primarchs.

I am heavily biased because Iron Warriors were my first army (grey was easy to paint don’t judge me) but I feel like Perturabo is the better character. Characters are really defined by their flaws and unfortunately Dorn’s inflexibility never really comes up in the Heresy Series. The only time we really see it effect him is at the Iron Cage, much later. Perturabo struggles with realistic flaws; he has a desperate need to be recognized, he is a people pleaser, and he is incapable of opening up to others. These don’t make him a good person but it makes him a good character.

We may see more for Dorn. There’s still plenty to be written but so far Dorn’s inflexibility has been less of a flaw and more of a credit. I feel like an Iron Cage book might help explore more of his depth. That book would have to be a two part series like the burning of prospero. It would be too easy to turn into bolter porn for one side otherwise.

Yeah. Perturabo feels quite human in his flaws. And given that he never got to do what he truly wanted and desired which is architecture and was shoved into a general's role making one nasty and fatiguing siege after siege with his legion, I feel like this mentally scarred him.

It would be interesting to see him land, instead of Olympia, to Macragge and have Guilliman's parents who were quite supportive of Guilliman's ambitions.

It would be nice to see Perturabo the architect who got to follow his dreams and desires.

Dorn did his duty without being a whinging crybaby?

So I guess he gets my vote.

Lol I jest, but it's kinda true. Perty lacked inner strength and conviction.

Dorn, 100%.

He was one of the few Primarchs to ask "What happens after the Empire?" As in, what will happen to his Legion, and all the other Legions when the Galaxy is united under the Emperor and they are no longer needed? Much like the Roman Soldiers of old, Dorn wanted more for his Legion. He wanted them to be more than just Space Marines. He wanted them to be architects, builders, teachers.

Dorn's initial "fit" as it were (just poor writing if you ask me) about the Heresy is that he couldn't believe that any of his brothers would turn against their father. As the Heresy continued, a portion of him still wouldn't accept what was happening until he killed Alpharious (or was it Omegus? Who knows?). At that point, it was probably a little too late, but that's a great deal of the story about the Horus Heresy by the Loyalists- too little, too late.

Dorn was a thinker. Sanguinius brooded all the time about how bad his Legion had it, Guiliman was a philosopher, the Lion was all about Honor, and Russ was a warrior. The rest of the loyalist Primarchs kinda get the shaft in fluff besides those five. When I say Dorn was a thinker, he contemplated problems, looked at them from all angles, considered all the possible solutions, pros and cons, etc. etc. which sometimes made him look aloof and indecisive compared to Russ. He was just carefully considering the problem and the best solution for it Dorn wasn't too concerned about why they fought (something Sanguinius was obsessed with), but rather how they fought. This was his biggest beef with Guiliman and the Codex Astartes. Dorn recognized that to formalize how a Legion fought, with static tactics and strategy invites weakness and a play book for your enemies to exploit those weaknesses. Dorn thought that breaking the Legions was a huge mistake. Guiliman wanted them broken to consolidate his power and decentralize the amount of power any one Primarch could gather. In the end, Dorn bowed to the inevitable. Seeing how bleak the Imperium would eventually become, he threw himself into a win-less fight because he couldn't bear to live in the Imperium he envisioned. Dorn was complicated.

You have to read the Imperial Fists fluff out of Horus Heresy Book III: Extermination to really get a good idea of who/what Dorn was.

Dorn's pain fetish makes me wonder why he didn't fall to Slaanesh.

Perterabo is a petulant whiny child. Not an unsympathetic one mind you, but to me he comes out as easily being one of the worst people in 40k (and that is one hell of a bar to climb). Horus and Fulgrim had to be corrupted to go full evil, and Kruze led a miserable suffering life plagued by visions and along with Angron was basically destined to go dark side through no particular fault of their own. Mortarion seemed to regret his decisions at a point and Magnus got gaslighted into evil. Alpharius was a potential idiot/potential selfless hero.

Perterabo was angry no one loved him enough. Pathetic.

I honestly didn't like Dorn much to be fair until I got near the end of the HH series when he proved he's actually got some personality under his stoicism. Honestly I wonder if the real reason he got picked to go to Terra with daddy is cause the Emperor sat down and thought he was boring and wouldn't do anything interest out in space anyway.