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Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Waaaghpower wrote:
GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.


Pretty much this.

Very CP hungry. Strats too expensive and too necessary in order to compete. Psybolt ammunition needs to be cheaper or a pointed upgrade. Also should have access to SM psychic powers / new powers & more normal smites.

Terminators in general are not in a good place as they are too slow and not enough dakka.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




United States

I was thinking of them having access to pretty much all types of psychic disciplines. Not every psyker is going to have the same powers, so they should be able to draw from various disciplines. They could use the 'Malefic' powers, but obviously do not wish to practice such a dark path, which would bar them from using it in-game to represent the lore/fluff/history/etc. I don't know how the in-game mechanics work though (i.e. picking a psychic discipline on a squad by squad basis or the whole army/faction would have to take the same psychic talent tree.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 03:48:00


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.


agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

That is how it used to be and it would be pretty cool if we got that back. I'd be happy with ether. Sanctic being weak is a huge problem for the GK. Though it wouldn't be such a huge deal with buffed smite. The thing is with only 6 powers and every unit being able to cast and you run out of everything but smite.

Something along the lines of Purgators keeping Astral Aim, Terminators and Paladins get some sorta bonus to their attacks exploding, Interceptors and Strikes getting Warp Quake which would work to give that area denial Infiltrators have, and Purifiers get a rework on their current Smite.

I never finalized everything in the homebrew rules I was working on, but it was along those lines.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They stand in the corner, ironically next to pure daemons, as possibly the worst two codexes in 8th.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?


Eh, I won the last game I played with them [vs. Custodes].

They're conventionally held to be the worst faction in the game, and that's probably true. That said, it's not so bad you can't find success. Space Marines might be a real tough ask though, because with 12" DS denial, Ap-2 across the board, etc. there's a lot in there that hard counters us [you]. Of course, to salt the wound, any given space marine list has 2 psychic disciplines, 12 total powers to pick from cast per turn and many to never pick because they don't have 12 casts per turn in a list, but we get 6 when every singe unit is a psyker and our smites are de-tuned into uselessness.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

Were I a Grey Knight's player, I'd personally be hoping for very little out of the next Psychic Awakening book. Might seem counter-intuitive, but the thing is, Grey Knights need nothing less than an entirely new codex, and if the next Psychic Awakening solves half their problems, I'd be worried that the other half would get put on the long finger again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 07:38:14


 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






From PA they need

Better smite on characters
1-2 more psychic tables
Access to a grey Knight/psychic doctrines
A way to circumvent the rule of one in psychic
Chaplin gets litany of hate
A way to increase their durability
Better heavy weapons
Dreadknights get shunt back (with teleporter)
Reasons to take Libby, brother champ, tech matinee, etc.
Fix the incinerator
Fix the psycannons
And more...


"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Were I a Grey Knight's player, I'd personally be hoping for very little out of the next Psychic Awakening book. Might seem counter-intuitive, but the thing is, Grey Knights need nothing less than an entirely new codex, and if the next Psychic Awakening solves half their problems, I'd be worried that the other half would get put on the long finger again.

Well, I also don't expect something from the PA book.
Similar to the Aeldari in the first PA book.
Almost nothing that should be a must have.

My expectations that GW manages to release a better GK codex in the near future or at all are zero.
For this, playtesting would be necessary to bring the army up-to-date.
But playtesting is not what GW is really caring for.

Have a look at the monthly WD. A quite good magazine when it comes to short stories and painting tips.
But the guys and girls playing there are just GW employees, no 40k addicts and professionals.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




Somerdale, NJ, USA

 Smotejob wrote:
From PA they need

Better smite on characters
1-2 more psychic tables
Access to a grey Knight/psychic doctrines
A way to circumvent the rule of one in psychic
Chaplin gets litany of hate
A way to increase their durability
Better heavy weapons
Dreadknights get shunt back (with teleporter)
Reasons to take Libby, brother champ, tech matinee, etc.
Fix the incinerator
Fix the psycannons
And more...



Every single one of these + Psybolt "Special Issue" Ammo would be my hope.
I unfortunately have serious misgivings that PA will do half of, if any at all, of what you listed. =(

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 3k /// - 4k /// - 6k /// - 2k (take out the actual Genestealers, only 1.1k) 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 14:08:18


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.



The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Pancakey wrote:
 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.



The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!


Lets all sacrifice a small goat to the dark gods and pray this does not come to pass...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Argive wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.



The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!


Lets all sacrifice a small goat to the dark gods and pray this does not come to pass...


If only it were that easy!

I will let you know when i get my C&D from GW legal.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





They are pretty bad. How can such a cool army be so gak?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 08:30:44


 
   
Made in au
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?


These new rules have been doing pretty well in play-testing:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779625.page

^They should make Grey Knights a mid-tier meta army at least.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






They stand in the corner with a funny little pointy hat on still paying for the sins of The Ward.

Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




There was the demon world ** CLASSIFIED ** inside the eye of terror. It was formally a Necron tomb world that was heavily infested by Orks before to get swallowed inside the thickest warp storms that have ever existed. It was that impenetrable that nobody can get in without the help of the chaos gods. It is because of that that the Chaos Space Marines thought that there were the safer place to store all the salt that they plunder across the galaxy for millennials from the Horus heresy. They underestimate the power of the progonosticars.

Brother ** CLASSIFIED ** , probably the most powerful prognosticar in the last 3000 years, gave his life to predict an opening in the warp storms of a couple of few days. This is when Grand Master Lord Saltimor Karhn of the second brotherhood assembled a strike force to retrieve all the salt from the demon world ** CLASSIFIED **.

The hammers of titans fall upon the chaos forces who didn't expect it as they believed to be safe in ** CLASSIFIED **. It was a glorious day for the emperor and the silver marines retrieved all the salt from the demon world ** CLASSIFIED ** and bring it to the fortress world of ** CLASSIFIED **.

Meanwhile, in an important craftworld some farseer sees it. He was wondering what is this salt and why everybody seems interested in it. He asked to his warlocks, nobody knew it. He sent some communications to some contacts in Commorragh and in the Ynaries. Nobody seems to know anything about. Puzzled he decided to contact the ultramarines as Guillaman somehow, own one favour to the fellows Ynaries. However, they also didn't know what is this salt thing. Such a mystery, So they decide that it was just some monkeigh or another low civilised species non-sense so they decide to ignore it and keep with his project to increase his fleet of crimson hunters. ....to fail to understand the importance of the salt... no wonder why the Aeldari civilisation fell to chaos.

The fact is that now almost all the salt of the galaxy is under the custody of the Grey Knights. Abadon have tried to recover it and so he has sent several black crusades till then to recover the stolen salt. Do not believe the official version, he didn't go to vigilus to chop down the segmentus obscurus from the light of the emperor. He just wrongly believe that the salt was sored in vigiuls. He haven't succeed yet.

The salt is firmly kept by the grey knights. Here is where the Grey Knights stand. As the unbreakable shield that is holding the salt to spread across the galaxy. As the last hope of the mankind, no, of the whole universe, against the salty menace of the salty salt.


   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, GK as a stand-alone army is maybe the wrong approach.
Fluff-wise, one will just see a detachment of GK on the battle field combating chaos whenever possible.
Such a GK force is usually embedded in a larger army of AM or SM battling the evil.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Well wait for ritual of the damned. Mayb they get something nice
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




They are grey, they stand between the candle and the star
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?


These new rules have been doing pretty well in play-testing:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779625.page

^They should make Grey Knights a mid-tier meta army at least.


Before NuMarines came out, I was still playing GK at least once a month. Tried these house rules, tried a few other popular ones - multicast, improved heavy weapons, reroll charges, parry, full army deep strike, deep strike on turn 1, double dice on invuls, etc. This amendment seems to combine the best of those into a single document.

Honestly, Grey Knights have little synergy with the 8th edition ruleset and house rules only go so far in correcting the problems. Fundamentally, if you are going to spend points on a unit, it has to perform on the tabletop. There are still too many units that just don't really work with the way 8th is written.

They have lots of great melee weapons, but all the ways to deliver a unit into combat are mediocre.

They have lots of decent Stratagems, but each costs a lot of command points.

They have lots of access to heavy weapons, but the ones they can take don't do much damage.

It's nice that every unit can smite, but always doing a single mortal wound to the closest unit doesn't really mean much.

The improvements I have seen that actually affect games are in points cost, CA and various FAQs have made them a little more playable. The army I played in 2018 used to cost 2,000 points, now it costs 1432. Strikes are a lot cheaper, I can load up on them and a Brother Captain to create a small detachment to soup with IG. A LRC with Astral Aim and Psychic Onslaught is one of the better options for clearing chaff with Indirect Fire. And a 10-man Paladin unit with an Apothecary, Draigo, and a Brotherhood Ancient is something akin to a death star, even if you take wounds, you have plenty of ways to get them back.

So I guess I'd say Grey Knights are great for soup, great for narrative, and still really challenging to play on their own. Now that NuMarines are here, I'm skeptical the army can be fixed even with a new Codex. I think GW would need to Primarize GKs for them to compete and they'd end up something like Deathwatch with some great gimmick that doesn't really make up for the lack of Doctrines.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Let's see:
-Terminators are key to the GK codex and they are overcosted with limited wargear options.
-All their options are *low AP* Heavy weapons, so they are shooting at a BS of 4+ even though Terminators should have Relentless.
-They can't cast the same spell twice from a 6 spell book in an all psychic army AND they have a nerfed smite. I'm not sure why their troops cost much, maybe it's the ONE psychic spell they can cast.
-Their primary transport is deepstriking, which got nerfed shortly after the codex came out.
-Their buff stratagems cost TWO CP in an army that is starved for cp due to their low model count.
-GK got a series of nerfs after the codex came out. I mentioned the DS nerf, but they also received a nerf to their Sanctuary spell, and a nerf to the way interceptors could move around in the charge phase.
-They absolutely need access to doctrines, litanies, more psychic powers (or an adjustment to the rule of 1), and lower cp costs, together, to make them a competitive army, which is an awfully long wishlist. I'm not sure what that board meeting would look like, but I can see some jack off saying, "If we do that for Grey Knights, we'd have to do that for everyone!". It remains a wishlist that probably won't be fulfilled.

Thus is the life of a GK player. How can such a cool army be and remain so crap? GW PLEASE.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/22 11:45:59


 
   
Made in au
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, GK as a stand-alone army is maybe the wrong approach.
Fluff-wise, one will just see a detachment of GK on the battle field combating chaos whenever possible.
Such a GK force is usually embedded in a larger army of AM or SM battling the evil.


Not long now till we will see the full the PA4 rules for GK. By the looks of things Masters of The Warp Tide bonuses is good enough to keep the army mono-GK. +1 Cover save / enemy -1 to hit army wide (or GK psyker units at least), or 2MW Smite spam are enticing buffs imo.

 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

Well, despite the gimmicks they will get they are still bottom tier.
Its a glass cannon that easily folds.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Army-wide cover or -1 to hit if in cover for free is glass cannon? OK then.

They look much stronger than before. Likely not IH strong but middling in the codex Astartes power level - RG/WS level perhaps.

2 MW spam is going to be a problem for so many armies/builds it's going to really change things I think, not to mention what they do to Daemons, that are so key to competitive Chaos builds.

It's likely they increase the strength of vanilla marines in the meta while killing a few Chaos builds, possibly reducing their overall strength. Its another nail in the Custodes and Knight coffin too, I think.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





people talk about GKs being a bit of a glass canon because their basic troops are still 17 PPM. at that kinda price even a -1 to hit seems pretty fragile. I agree though that some people might be short selling them. I mean, even if strike squads are still "meh" GKTs are going to be pretty tough. problem is people judge by "can it point and click beat the latest OP netlist with ease" even if GKs move up to middle tier that'll be pretty good. I mean... they'll be playable at least. I've got a small GK army, it'd be nice to dust it off, even just for casual games.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 08:10:20


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




Played a game Yesterday, 2k vs Shooty Tyranids. Used just the Tide of Shadows and nothing else new.

Its a serious serious buff. Paladins/GMNDKs with -1 to Hit are really tough, and even plain Strikes and Interceptors gaining cover after you dropped them close for your turn 2 Beta strike saved a lot of them in the following round.

Psi Weapons that only hit on 5+ /4+ (-1 to hit from malanthorphe) still suck, didnt had the feeling it would be worth it to use the Psi Weapon buff tide in that situation.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Army-wide cover or -1 to hit if in cover for free is glass cannon? OK then.

They look much stronger than before. Likely not IH strong but middling in the codex Astartes power level - RG/WS level perhaps.

2 MW spam is going to be a problem for so many armies/builds it's going to really change things I think, not to mention what they do to Daemons, that are so key to competitive Chaos builds.

It's likely they increase the strength of vanilla marines in the meta while killing a few Chaos builds, possibly reducing their overall strength. Its another nail in the Custodes and Knight coffin too, I think.

You are correct it is going annihilate the disco lord build. Disco lord is killed by 3 GK smites doing flat 4 damage in the mind bullet tide (assuming they still get flat 3 for smites vs daemons) It's going to murder TS too With Psycannons getting the buff to str 8 and flat 2 damage completely ignoing all is dust and who love daemon princes. It will murder my black legion list to which has no less than 5 daemons in my standard list. It's going to murder any army without significant chaff (no army can withstand 30+ mortal alpha to their best units). Not even Ironhands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

Well, despite the gimmicks they will get they are still bottom tier.
Its a glass cannon that easily folds.

It's a glass cannon with built in mechanisms to always strike first. That is a formula for victory IMO. It will be heavily matchup dependent though. Imperial gaurd will do really well against GK. As they can absorb the alpha strike and then kill 40 meq in a turn like nobodies business. Though...the RG army trait will probably help out a lot more than you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
people talk about GKs being a bit of a glass canon because their basic troops are still 17 PPM. at that kinda price even a -1 to hit seems pretty fragile. I agree though that some people might be short selling them. I mean, even if strike squads are still "meh" GKTs are going to be pretty tough. problem is people judge by "can it point and click beat the latest OP netlist with ease" even if GKs move up to middle tier that'll be pretty good. I mean... they'll be playable at least. I've got a small GK army, it'd be nice to dust it off, even just for casual games.
It can. Assault cents 24 wound Goliath murdered in a psychic phase NP before you even shoot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 17:32:56


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in au
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Because how little space for errors and how complicated the game play is, comparing to a solid and easy to play lists, GK are somewhere at the bottom of the list. the main difference between pre and post PA4 GKs is that playing post PA4 GK you do not feel like your whiping yourself, and in a more casual setting they can even be a bit of fun.

Very unforgiving to play though,
   
 
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