Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Da Boss wrote:
I really doubt it, they are very popular factions. It might have let GW find the price ceiling for their boxed sets, since this one was worse value than usual.

It wasn't just about price. I'm a Drukhari player and I'm not touching anything with Hellions in it, and the Drazhar sculpt is terminally crappy. (And I already have the superior metal one)
Add to that the fact that Incubi just suck. Why would I take this box for even $20?

The Eldar side of the box has similar problems. Vyper sucks, and is ooooooooooold. I don't know about anyone who uses Jain Zar. Apart from Baharroth she must be the least useful Phoenix Lord.

The main problems of this box is not just price, but the garbage they filled it with.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, another bit of joy with the box kit - they gave the Dark Eldar side 5 Incubi, Drazhar and a Venom.

Given that Venoms can only ever transport 5 models, Drazhar can't even ride with his own men. And since there are no other models, either he or his Incubi won't be riding at all.

Top marks, GW.

That's a problem by the codex designer in 2014 though. Cruddace? Venom should always have been 6 capacity. That this ignoble oversight made it into yet another book really shows how low the brows are in GW writing team.

Honestly I would've happily bought it for Jain Zar as I like her and I play for fluff and the Falcon/Vyper are models I both like and don't have BUT why would I buy a super expensive box set for it? I'd be stuck with a bunch of DE that are either bad or not worth having alone and why would I want more Banshees than I already have?

A few things in it were decent but it's almost entirely trash so why would I buy it? I wouldn't but I did get a decent amount of what I wanted off ebay.

Lets face it most people with an established major collection of any army can find fault with almost all of the duel army boxed sets GW has released. People with big armies already have most of the models they "need" and what they want/need is likely very specific and varies a lot person to person. All they really want are the new kits.

In contrast those with new or very new armies are more likely to be attracted to the boxed sets because they contain core and new models - a majority of which they "need/want/might want". So they have greater value for that segment of the market.


I think the real issue isn't actually the content of the box, its the time-lag between the duel set and the new models going on individual sale. That's the real issue because until they do go on individual sale people feel like the only way to get them is through "ebay scalpers" or buying a set where they only want part of it and having the additional "bother" of selling/trading on the rest.

If GW had a pattern of duel box for 2 months then model releases which they stuck too then many of the complaints were slip aside because the time-lag would be fairly low. However when you've boxes with unique models in them for a year (AoS has several such) then that's a very long time delay to hold new models at ransom.

It's also honestly surprising GW is doing that because all it does is send money circling around in the secondhand and scalper markets; money that could instead be being spent directly on GW models.


And yet at the same time GW seem to still have stock or be producing stock for Wrath and Rapture - whilst having put all the unique models in that set on individual sale.

As has been said that box was just a total head-scratcher in every way.

Even the best part of the box - new plastic banshees - they did so little with them rules wise to make them desirable or a must take. I'm not saying they needed to push them into OP territory, but a little more rules love would have made a difference I think?

Also, maybe could have given them a little variation or new ideas instead of just doing a exact copy pasta of the old ones? Maybe a weapon variant or two? Maybe something different for a Ynnari version like some option parts?

But nope - they put minimal effort into the whole affair and then made it cost a crazy amount. Almost makes me wish the OP is right and they will squat 'em if this is all they can manage - just so underwhelming....

pm713 wrote:
Honestly I would've happily bought it for Jain Zar as I like her and I play for fluff and the Falcon/Vyper are models I both like and don't have BUT why would I buy a super expensive box set for it? I'd be stuck with a bunch of DE that are either bad or not worth having alone and why would I want more Banshees than I already have?

A few things in it were decent but it's almost entirely trash so why would I buy it? I wouldn't but I did get a decent amount of what I wanted off ebay.

yeah here's the empty spot on my shelf.

Which would have plastic incubi, plastic drazar, and plastic banshees on it.

if GW would SELL THEM TO ME.

I'm not buying from a scalper on ebay, I buy from my local or not at all and I'm not shelling out 250 for a bunch of crap I don't need and can't resell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

petrov27 wrote:
As has been said that box was just a total head-scratcher in every way.

Even the best part of the box - new plastic banshees - they did so little with them rules wise to make them desirable or a must take. I'm not saying they needed to push them into OP territory, but a little more rules love would have made a difference I think?

Also, maybe could have given them a little variation or new ideas instead of just doing a exact copy pasta of the old ones? Maybe a weapon variant or two? Maybe something different for a Ynnari version like some option parts?

But nope - they put minimal effort into the whole affair and then made it cost a crazy amount. Almost makes me wish the OP is right and they will squat 'em if this is all they can manage - just so underwhelming....

I guess they brought back the triskele after making it index-only...didn't make it or the mirrorswords any good though.. it's like hey, you can make the mirrorswords nearly as points efficient as the executioner if you give up -1 to hit in melee...woooooooo....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Lets face it most people with an established major collection of any army can find fault with almost all of the duel army boxed sets GW has released. People with big armies already have most of the models they "need" and what they want/need is likely very specific and varies a lot person to person. All they really want are the new kits.

In contrast those with new or very new armies are more likely to be attracted to the boxed sets because they contain core and new models -

say what?

Core models, dude?

yeah let me just start up my new eldar army with the contents of this box. Let's see I got

1 HQ
1 Elite
1 Heavy
1 Fast

Well I can run a....a not detachment. An unbound army.

How bout the drukhari, we have

1 hq
1 elite
2 fast
1 transport

Cool, Cool, i'll run one of those unbound armies I'm hearing everyone raving about these days. maybe I can run them as Ynnari, you know combine them!

oh my two new characters don't work now. Whoops.

I'm surprised it's actually taken this long for the individual kits to be released.

I suspect they may be holding off on release until either a new codex is on the horizon and/or they have other new kits to release alongside to spark interest and impulse buying.

Icegoat wrote:
This box set was meant to be the turning point for the eldar and dark eldar the big release. Brand new aspect warriors in plastic moving forward the storyline. Cool new incubi.instead it had probably the worst sales a box set released by games workshop has had in this newer era. All the independent game stores still have hundreds of these boxes gathering dust. I think the poor sales have completely killed eldar and dark eldar releases for the next few years and possibly could see them squatted further down the line. Certaintly we wont be seeing any more plastic aspect warriors for a long long time.

Maybe just not enough people collect them.

To paraphrase Game of Thrones.... "You know nothing Icegoat."

I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.

I paid a bits company £20 for Drazhar, and £25 for the five Incubi, which is broadly what I expect GW will charge when they eventually get around to selling them outside of the box set.

Rules-wise, Drazhar is now great, while the Incubi have gone from poor to pretty good, albeit with some delivery issues. Interestingly, Incubi are probably best as Ynnari, with Drazhar (in an allied detachment) buffing them.

I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed. This one is basically still available everywhere evry independent stockists has multiple copies left. Its lingered like a bad smell a stain on the release schedule. I'm surprised the independent stockists don't drop the price but they never seem to with warhammer. It means that gw are unlikely to release the two units at separate boxes for a long old while which is another nail in the coffin for updating the rest of the range.

Icegoat wrote:
I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.

that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.

Most of the Dual-Boxes have sold well. Blood of the Phoenix and Wrath and Rapture appear to be the exception. Carrion Empire, Looncurse, and most of the AoS boxes(except for Wrath and Rapture) sold out like hotcakes. They've also been super good deals or had new models that were a bargain.

Ultimately the 40k side of things has a problem that the boxes have a lot of old and aging models no one wants being shovelled onto the masses. It's why the Dual Boxes with the Primaris are selling okay as there are a lot of newer models that people want to get cheap in there. I bought Wake the Dead mostly for the Primaris even if I am primarily a Craftworld player. Tooth and Claw was an awesome box as it contained mostly newer units except for the Genestealer unt.

Then you have abominations like Blood of the Phoenix that has a twofold problem. First it has some of the oldest(Vyper, Falcon) and bad(Vyper, Falcon, Hellions) units of the bunch. Second, it contains new sculpts of units that have already existed for eons and most people have a plethora of. This means that very few are going to pay a premium just to get updates of existing sculpts. In this case single pack releases would have been much smarter.

I sincerely hope BotP was a lesson learned for GW. That you can't shovel crap onto people at a premium just because you added a new sculpt or two. Sadly I fear they will not have learned that lesson.

I really liked the box set. Still have to paint the hellions, the venom and the eldar half.

The incubi and the drazhar models are fantastic imo.

BrianDavion wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.

that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.

Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?

Cronch wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.

that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.

Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?

except thats not true, they useall have a bit more leg then that, (I could actually order shadowspear on the GW site as late as december)

and even if they did all sell out within the first month. you said "Sold out before the pre order window closed"



Thats you right now buddy

 harlokin wrote:
I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.

I paid a bits company £20 for Drazhar, and £25 for the five Incubi, which is broadly what I expect GW will charge when they eventually get around to selling them outside of the box set.

Rules-wise, Drazhar is now great, while the Incubi have gone from poor to pretty good, albeit with some delivery issues. Interestingly, Incubi are probably best as Ynnari, with Drazhar (in an allied detachment) buffing them.

That's complete bollocks. There's nothing "true" about you coward vat-born hedonists.

guys guys guys.. the only truth of the xenos is that they must be purged.,

It was a crap box, I will only buy eldar if they bring the old metals back. If eldar get canned then more marines for me.

Where to start...

I first off, I understand the frustration with waiting for separates- Sisters are going through it right now- we can get repentia in the box but not separate. It sucks.

I've been waiting 2 months. DE have been waiting 4. Feels like forever when you want the models, but that's a heartbeat in 40k time.

You know I've been playing since 1989, right?

Okay, now let's talk about models. Neither faction got "new" models, but both factions got a new sculpt of both a unit and a character, and I believe all four units knocked off finecast units. No other faction has had a character and a unit for PA.

And before you mention the Admech hotness, not all of those units are PA units- there will either be a codex 2.0 or a new box or both... Though I suppose it is possible that it will be another box like Blood of the Phoenix...Except with new units. Only time will tell. But as of this precise moment, I'm pretty sure it's accurate that they have so far done the best model wise- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Last model topic? Drazhar sculpt. If you like the old one better, well I'm glad you already have one, and I respect your opinion. Personally? The only model in the DE range I liked less than the original Drazhar were the grotesques. The whole "waist that's as thick my thigh" look really didn't cut for me. But again, opinion.

Now let's talk rules.

Because of PA, Drazhar gained 1 wound, and both of his weapon options automatically do an extra point of damage and he gained the ability to do an additional 2 damage on a to wound. Now you can say that didn't go as far as you wanted it to go, or that it's not as powerful as Space Marines got, but what you can't say is that this is an insignificant buff.

Incubi? Didn't get a stat bump, but the whole unit does +2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, not just the Klaivex. Also, speaking of the Klaivex, he picked up demi-klaives as an option, and the +2 attacks helps get more magic 6's. So again, not broken like some of the marine 2.0, but you really can't say that isn't a decent improvement.

On the CWE side, it doesn't look as improved; I thought I remembered the Community article mentioning an increase to the profile, and the way they talked about acrobatic like it was a new ability. At the time I bought PA, I didn't have the CWE dex. I've picked up since, and just did my first comparison and it looks like the Triskele is actually the only difference in either profile.

Their exarchs did get an improvement to their powers. This isn't as good as the DE improvements on the models in the box, but on the plus side, exarchs of ALL shrines got the improvement, whereas DE only got improvement to models in the box. Not all of the powers are better than the originals, but you can really wag the synergy with some of the new craftworld traits, etc.

In terms of being playable out of the box, I get that complaint, but I'm not sure I buy it. The most common complaint I've seen seems to be the inclusion of units that everyone already has; if you actually made the factions playable out of the box, you would likely increase this problem. So which do you want more? Playable detachments, or models that people a less likely to already own?

Should they have chosen different models to sculpt? Maybe. People talk about the characters DE lost, and I feel that. I LOVED Sathonyx in particular, but also Malys, Sliscuss, and Keradruahk. But I don't believe any of them ever had models. I know many are afraid that without rules in print, there's no hope at all. I choose not to believe that. I waited since 1995 for Genestealer Cult and 2003 for Sisters.

8th gave me both. It will give me DE love. I just have to have faith. This is why I freak out every time someone advocates for a 9th ed, especially when they suggest a hard reset kinda 9th rather than a transition 9th. While my faith might survive the former, if the latter occurs, I'll join you in hopeless pessimism.

The DE in the set are a great thematic compliment to a start collecting box because of wych units. I love Hellions, not necessarily because they're great competitively, but because I think they're cool on a conceptual level, and no wych cult is really complete without them.22 While the battlebox was still available, it brought the Kabals to the table.

This post is already way too long, so I just gonna wrap it up here. Hope my opinions don't sound like they disrespect yours.

Peace.

PenitentJake wrote:
Where to start...

Spoiler:

I first off, I understand the frustration with waiting for separates- Sisters are going through it right now- we can get repentia in the box but not separate. It sucks.

I've been waiting 2 months. DE have been waiting 4. Feels like forever when you want the models, but that's a heartbeat in 40k time.

You know I've been playing since 1989, right?

Okay, now let's talk about models. Neither faction got "new" models, but both factions got a new sculpt of both a unit and a character, and I believe all four units knocked off finecast units. No other faction has had a character and a unit for PA.

And before you mention the Admech hotness, not all of those units are PA units- there will either be a codex 2.0 or a new box or both... Though I suppose it is possible that it will be another box like Blood of the Phoenix...Except with new units. Only time will tell. But as of this precise moment, I'm pretty sure it's accurate that they have so far done the best model wise- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Last model topic? Drazhar sculpt. If you like the old one better, well I'm glad you already have one, and I respect your opinion. Personally? The only model in the DE range I liked less than the original Drazhar were the grotesques. The whole "waist that's as thick my thigh" look really didn't cut for me. But again, opinion.

Now let's talk rules.

Because of PA, Drazhar gained 1 wound, and both of his weapon options automatically do an extra point of damage and he gained the ability to do an additional 2 damage on a to wound. Now you can say that didn't go as far as you wanted it to go, or that it's not as powerful as Space Marines got, but what you can't say is that this is an insignificant buff.

Incubi? Didn't get a stat bump, but the whole unit does +2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, not just the Klaivex. Also, speaking of the Klaivex, he picked up demi-klaives as an option, and the +2 attacks helps get more magic 6's. So again, not broken like some of the marine 2.0, but you really can't say that isn't a decent improvement.

On the CWE side, it doesn't look as improved; I thought I remembered the Community article mentioning an increase to the profile, and the way they talked about acrobatic like it was a new ability. At the time I bought PA, I didn't have the CWE dex. I've picked up since, and just did my first comparison and it looks like the Triskele is actually the only difference in either profile.

Their exarchs did get an improvement to their powers. This isn't as good as the DE improvements on the models in the box, but on the plus side, exarchs of ALL shrines got the improvement, whereas DE only got improvement to models in the box. Not all of the powers are better than the originals, but you can really wag the synergy with some of the new craftworld traits, etc.

In terms of being playable out of the box, I get that complaint, but I'm not sure I buy it. The most common complaint I've seen seems to be the inclusion of units that everyone already has; if you actually made the factions playable out of the box, you would likely increase this problem. So which do you want more? Playable detachments, or models that people a less likely to already own?

Should they have chosen different models to sculpt? Maybe. People talk about the characters DE lost, and I feel that. I LOVED Sathonyx in particular, but also Malys, Sliscuss, and Keradruahk. But I don't believe any of them ever had models. I know many are afraid that without rules in print, there's no hope at all. I choose not to believe that. I waited since 1995 for Genestealer Cult and 2003 for Sisters.

8th gave me both. It will give me DE love. I just have to have faith. This is why I freak out every time someone advocates for a 9th ed, especially when they suggest a hard reset kinda 9th rather than a transition 9th. While my faith might survive the former, if the latter occurs, I'll join you in hopeless pessimism.

The DE in the set are a great thematic compliment to a start collecting box because of wych units. I love Hellions, not necessarily because they're great competitively, but because I think they're cool on a conceptual level, and no wych cult is really complete without them.22 While the battlebox was still available, it brought the Kabals to the table.

This post is already way too long, so I just gonna wrap it up here. Hope my opinions don't sound like they disrespect yours.

Peace.

And for all that greatness? This box offered me (practically) nothing.
It's full of stuff I've already got enough of AND stuff I don't want.

BrianDavion wrote:

Cronch wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.

that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.

Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?

except thats not true, they useall have a bit more leg then that, (I could actually order shadowspear on the GW site as late as december)

and even if they did all sell out within the first month. you said "Sold out before the pre order window closed"




Thats you right now buddy

You will find out you're talking to two different people, and I wasn't the one that made the "before preorder" comment, my good friend and husband to be.

 harlokin wrote:
I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.

If CWE are popular, their player base has not shown GW such. I'm not saying this boxed set was worth buying by any stretch but the lack of sales should be worrying.

No CWE players I know purchased this set. Many have no desire to get Banshees even when they are released separately because they already have models. They've purchased finecast or metal models years ago to make their squads and they don't need more. Jain Zar isn't spectacular on the table so they have little desire for her either.

The numbers of BotP boxes sitting on shelves seems to confirm this anecdotal evidence.

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

Looking ad the goblin gaming Drukhari force is in state awaiting delivery and lood angels and Wolfs boxes are in stock. Maybe if they released the Phoenix box 30 gbp cheaper it could have sold without issue.
Last year CWE battleforce was sold super quick without issue and appocalypse box full of wraith was having issues, because the units were not good enough.

It was a set for people that were okey with paying 280$ or more for two heroes and two units. Looks like the number of people willing to do stuff like that was no so big.

I just think eldar are outdated and played out as a concept age of sigmar has taken aelves in new directions some have worked some haven't. Exodites would sell five thousand fold better than any release cwe or de could come up with.i actually know of no one in my area who collects dark eldar or plays them.no one.they are way to niche to survive much longer.

okey, but isn't it because the eldar armies devolved in to buy big flyers and not much else, specially if you had dark eldar already, before 8th ed?

Icegoat wrote:
I just think eldar are outdated and played out as a concept....

That's nice. Why not simply play something else instead of concern trolling.

Icegoat wrote:
I just think eldar are outdated and played out as a concept age of sigmar has taken aelves in new directions some have worked some haven't. Exodites would sell five thousand fold better than any release cwe or de could come up with.i actually know of no one in my area who collects dark eldar or plays them.no one.they are way to niche to survive much longer.

Well obviously your "area" is the nexus of all opinion.

Pray tell what music the denizens of your abode enjoy most. I'd hate to think I was listening to the wrong kind.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.

Cronch wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.

Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?

At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.

I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.

Maybe GW should hold off on making assumptions about how well Aspect Warriors and Phoenix Lords sell until they actually release them separately outside of a box set with the lowest price to value ratio in recent memory.