Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I play a Sororitas army and they can be fun, but the lore is kinda restrictive. IMO that's actually really awesome, but you'll never really see "sororitas mercenaries" or whatever.
Same with Marines, but at least Marines are permitted to do whatever, where as Sororitas have a distinct command structure within the IOM.
As for crunch, on the tabletop they can be quite devastating but take a bit of finesse to play; their rules have great internal and external balance and there aren't many (or any, that I can think of!) "trap choices".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/04 17:09:05
but you'll never really see "sororitas mercenaries" or whatever.
Couldn't you just say your playing a vendires brides of the emperor army? the have the same gear, and same armour, to a point where sob let out of stasis field can't see the difference between themselfs and the brides, till the second start calling out "for the emperor and vendir".
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Im going to say Necrons are a great beginner army in 8th edition. They are what I started with to dip my toes into 8th edition.
1. Easy to paint, leadbelcher primer, nuln oil, dry brush necron compound, boom. The base of your army is done, add color to taste.
2. Every unit is pretty straight forward about what it does and who to target. The vehicles with big guns target other big units, warriors and immortals fire at infantry, etc.
3. Ease of use of special rules like stratagems. A lot of Necron stratagems are pretty easy to figure out when to use, with minimal confusion to a newer player.
4. Strong in Casual games. Not everyone you meet is going for hardcore tournament lists. Weekly games in hobby shops between friends, Necrons can shine, especially at lower points! In addition to this, they really only have a couple of trap units in their codex (Monolith, I'm looking at you!).
Jidmah wrote: Over the ten years I have played WH40k I have literally introduced dozens of players into the hobby, and have collected quite some experience on this topic. Across the people who stayed in the hobby(that's our goal, right?), there are a few constants. The most important one by far: they started with an army they like. The others are that you protect the new players from heavily investing into junk units and that you help them to eventually start winning games. I realize this kind of contradicts the first point, but make sure they don't pick one of the mini-factions. Harlequins, Knights, Death Watch or Inquisition are not something a player should pick as their first army, because they are very limited in what you can do and there is nowhere to grow. Same is true for all the FW armies, a new player should not start out with the mess that is FW rules.
I think this is the way. If someone wants to play a particular faction it's typically better to help them play it than to direct them to something else.
I would also say that people are a bit more familiar in general with meta-gaming concepts these days.
In the spirit of the thread though I'd put up Tau as a fairly beginner-friendly army. It's got a good SC box, most of the units are at least decent at their roles, there aren't many counter-intuitive aspects to it. Particularly at friendly-game level.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 00:10:16
Srly though right now as much as it sucks and is boring as feth you cant go wrong with primaris only marines..
But certainly first and foremost: Id tell them to pick what they like the most. Every faction can build a comptent casual army. Its only when you get to "competative" tournaments that things get in the realms of Trash/OP..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/05 00:26:37
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Tycho wrote: Had a game day at the LGS this weekend and the subject of beginner armies came up. Initially we all agreed on the typical standby of "Imperial Space Marines", but, honestly, I feel like that's not as true as it used to be. Ignoring the supplements, even the base codex has so many options, that I don't feel like it's as "accessible" as it used to be (again looking at this through the eyes of a beginner who is completely new to the hobby). Ignoring personal taste for a moment,
Over the ten years I have played WH40k I have literally introduced dozens of players into the hobby, and have collected quite some experience on this topic. Across the people who stayed in the hobby(that's our goal, right?), there are a few constants. The most important one by far: they started with an army they like. The others are that you protect the new players from heavily investing into junk units and that you help them to eventually start winning games. I realize this kind of contradicts the first point, but make sure they don't pick one of the mini-factions. Harlequins, Knights, Death Watch or Inquisition are not something a player should pick as their first army, because they are very limited in what you can do and there is nowhere to grow. Same is true for all the FW armies, a new player should not start out with the mess that is FW rules.
There is a good friend of mine, who started at the same time as me. He really liked space marines, but got lots of flakk from veterans for picking the poster boys. Instead he started playing imperial guard, and was pretty unhappy with them, as his unusually aggressive play style around charging guardsmen, demolishers and helhounds caused him to lose lots of games. Later he switchted to necrons, identifying them as the next best thing to space marines, but 4th edition necrons weren't exactly a great army. In a last effort to find something worth playing that is not space marines, he then picked up tyranid big bugs in a time where GK force weapons, JotWW and other instant dead things were all over the place. Needless to say, he doesn't play anymore, and didn't even bother to give 8th a shot despite still owning most of his models and many others returning to the game.
I've also had another friend that created a CF army and grew them with the units that were suggested by our local store manager. They redshirt just sold him all the stuff sitting on the shelves, which obviously didn't make for a functioning army. He left the game after a long string of losses.
Similar things happen when players just start with what they deem is the most powerful faction, they dump a lot of money on them, they don't like the feel of the army or the meta shifts, and then leave the game.
Most people will rather cut their losses and leave the game rather than start a second army.
So make sure to sit down with the new players and walk them through the factions. If they want to go marines, direct them to a chapter whose fluff, units and/or play style they can identify with. The old school way to do it is flipping through the BRB, but recently GW has launched this site to help with that: https://warhammer40000.com/setting/explore-the-factions/ Make sure that the faction is what they are expecting, for example if they want to play heavy hard to kill tanks, orks is not the faction they are looking for.
If someone likes a faction they will make them work.
You can build a working starter army from any faction - put the best two HQs in a battalion with three decent troop choices and add some big tank or a monster and some elite or fast attack. Make sure to pick competitive options, so they have decent shot at winning despite having little experience and to prevent forcing them to shelf their investment as soon as they start understanding the game. Listen to their wishes when building the army, but try to keep LoW and trash tier units out.
Start collecting boxes should only be bought if they actually contain decent units, which is not true for all armies.
Also people come from different backgrounds, not everyone needs be handled with kid's gloves. If someone who is a seasoned warmachine player, a MtG veteran, a DM for two D&D groups and has the entire FFX skill board memorized wants to start TS as his first army, let them. And yes that happened
if we consider the factors of initial accessibility (how easy is it for a beginner to get into), relatively forgiving play style that can support complex tactics but functions perfectly well without them, I feel like DG is the way to go.
It's easy to get the minis, the codex is small, you don't need a ton of supplements, but if the player decides they still like the DG once the "beginner" stage is over, they can still grow with the army. What does everyone else think? Do you all still recommend Space Marines, or something else?
DG in general are a great starter army for people who have general idea of synergy and tactics, but definitely not for people which lack such thinking, just want to toss dice with their friends or who are entirely new to the "nerdsphere" (cue: kids, partners, parents). If you know someone who is suffering from analysis paralysis in other games, DG is definitely the wrong army for them.
The army is not as forgiving as it seems, the low movement speed and range makes it easy to lose games by putting units in the wrong place, plus they need maximize synergies and combos to kill stuff, especially vehicles.
Something that also shouldn't be discounted is that many people think DG are utterly disgusting - the idea of bloated sickness-ridden pus-leaking super-soldiers with their entrails hanging out is not exactly appealing. I have gotten a "why the hell would you play or even paint that?!" when explaining what those models on the shelf are more than once. If you give someone an army they genuinely think is disgusting, I doubt they'll be having a lot of fun. It doesn't really save any money if you have to buy a second army you don't hate later.
TL;DR: Find out what faction the person likes, help them build their first army and win their first games. Protect them from trapping themselves with a collection of models that doesn't work or they don't like.
This is pretty much the gold standard. Help them find what they like, and build towards something good with it.
but you'll never really see "sororitas mercenaries" or whatever.
Couldn't you just say your playing a vendires brides of the emperor army? the have the same gear, and same armour, to a point where sob let out of stasis field can't see the difference between themselfs and the brides, till the second start calling out "for the emperor and vendir".
You could.
You could also say your force is made of errant sisters, or aren't sisters but powered armored mercs (who are secretly sisters trying to win converts in distant warzones), or that the acts of faith are a result of their Amazonian prowess.
It does admittedly take more work than with IG, but isn't much harder than with Space Marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 00:38:14
I would recommend that you watch various MiniWarGaming 40K videos on their official website or on YouTube, as you can spectate the various armies and see how they may or may not suit your taste. Though, in my opinion, I would say that Primaris Space Marines and Necrons are probably the best due to their standard across-the-board weaponry.
Well for me, as a beginner, I came into the hobby through reading books. I don't like the Ultramarines...they are the boy scouts of the Astartes and honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them. I find them incredibly boring and Guilliman bores the gak out of me.
I came across Carcharodons, read their books, and that's what I'm going with. I also really dig The Blood Angels and hate the fact that Sanguinius is dead as fried chicken.
I have zero experience with the Adeptus Restartes.
Good price for 2W/T4/3+ bodies, decent in combat with 3 attacks in their first round of combat and the choice of rapid fire or high range D2 bolter. They also have a bunch if stratagems to affect them and benefit a lot from almost every chapter tactics and doctrines.
Basically the perfect all-round troops unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/06 09:03:25
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Roberts84 wrote: ... honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them.
They don't.
Ultramarines represent the default state of Marines - vanilla - and thus remain the core of that range. On top of that it's a simple case of branding in a lot of cases. If you have a bunch of boxes that all have the same blue colour scheme, it signifies to a new person that these all belong together.
Honestly the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Internet's overblown hate-boner for the Ultramarines.
Roberts84 wrote: ... honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them.
They don't.
Ultramarines represent the default state of Marines - vanilla - and thus remain the core of that range. On top of that it's a simple case of branding in a lot of cases. If you have a bunch of boxes that all have the same blue colour scheme, it signifies to a new person that these all belong together.
Honestly the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Internet's overblown hate-boner for the Ultramarines.
Well I'll take a stab at it; they get models updates every other week, have absurd fluff, and haven't been remotely interesting since 3OK. Matt Ward probably has a Guilliman sex doll. Everywhere you look, it's ultramarines and captain planet to the rescue...they're such a trite, cliche' trope. I mean I don;t hate them but it would be nice for another chapter to take the lead in defending the Imperium now and again-- and maybe instead of every other chapter in the galaxy having to wait a decade for model upgrades, we could slow down the smurf train and give something--anything else priority for a change,.
The only thing I don't really understand is all the hate Guilliman seems to get in play. I mean he's an excellent unit, but I don't think he's even close to Mortarion on the op-o-meter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/06 12:30:47
I'll second necrons. Space Marines would be the last army I'll tell a beginner to try, now.
Necron are easy to paint and to play (they don't even have a supplement).
I didn't say easy to paint well and to play well.
Or Death Guard. But they paint scheme is more difficult
Roberts84 wrote: ... honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them.
They don't.
Ultramarines represent the default state of Marines - vanilla - and thus remain the core of that range. On top of that it's a simple case of branding in a lot of cases. If you have a bunch of boxes that all have the same blue colour scheme, it signifies to a new person that these all belong together.
Honestly the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Internet's overblown hate-boner for the Ultramarines.
Well I'll take a stab at it; they get models updates every other week, have absurd fluff, and haven't been remotely interesting since 3OK. Matt Ward probably has a Guilliman sex doll. Everywhere you look, it's ultramarines and captain planet to the rescue...they're such a trite, cliche' trope. I mean I don;t hate them but it would be nice for another chapter to take the lead in defending the Imperium now and again-- and maybe instead of every other chapter in the galaxy having to wait a decade for model upgrades, we could slow down the smurf train and give something--anything else priority for a change,.
The only thing I don't really understand is all the hate Guilliman seems to get in play. I mean he's an excellent unit, but I don't think he's even close to Mortarion on the op-o-meter.
in other words.. it's jealousy
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
godardc wrote: I'll second necrons. Space Marines would be the last army I'll tell a beginner to try, now.
Necron are easy to paint and to play (they don't even have a supplement).
I didn't say easy to paint well and to play well.
Or Death Guard. But they paint scheme is more difficult
Necrons are mediocre in the current meta and the GW support for this faction is lacking for years.
I'd stay away from Necrons.
Although Death Guard would be an option. A slow and resilient army with a very nice model range.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Roberts84 wrote: ... honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them.
They don't.
Ultramarines represent the default state of Marines - vanilla - and thus remain the core of that range. On top of that it's a simple case of branding in a lot of cases. If you have a bunch of boxes that all have the same blue colour scheme, it signifies to a new person that these all belong together.
Honestly the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Internet's overblown hate-boner for the Ultramarines.
Well I'll take a stab at it; they get models updates every other week, have absurd fluff, and haven't been remotely interesting since 3OK. Matt Ward probably has a Guilliman sex doll. Everywhere you look, it's ultramarines and captain planet to the rescue...they're such a trite, cliche' trope. I mean I don;t hate them but it would be nice for another chapter to take the lead in defending the Imperium now and again-- and maybe instead of every other chapter in the galaxy having to wait a decade for model upgrades, we could slow down the smurf train and give something--anything else priority for a change,.
The only thing I don't really understand is all the hate Guilliman seems to get in play. I mean he's an excellent unit, but I don't think he's even close to Mortarion on the op-o-meter.
in other words.. it's jealousy
lol I can't even imagine what a pathetically neurotic human being you'd need be to experience Jealousy over chapters. I mean I'll grant you I'm a Dork, but I draw the line pretty far away from there.
Oversaturation. A bit like vampire-based television and cinema between 2008-2014. It's everywhere, it's all the same, and you seemingly can't get away from it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/07 08:45:22
How about craftworlds with a focus on vehicles and wraiths? Cheap and decent kits, easy to paint, pretty durable and hard hitting, good support characters/psychic powers.
kingheff wrote: How about craftworlds with a focus on vehicles and wraiths? Cheap and decent kits, easy to paint, pretty durable and hard hitting, good support characters/psychic powers.
Eldar generally require you to line up a lot of parts to make work. Each individual part is OK, but if you want to make them work you really need to leverage synergies. I would not recommend them to a new player. Too much knowledge of what tool to use at the right time/place, and how to exploit the weakness of your opponent is required.
Marines are a lot more forgiving to play. They might not be the best at anything, but if you screw up, you generally have some slack. You screw up with Eldar, you fold like a pack of cards. With a vhecial/wraith army you avoid the problem of ultra-fragile elf bodies, but are locked into low model count skew list.
If you shoe-horn someone into marine because they are easy to play, but they don't actually like marines, you're fairly sure to lose that player as a fellow gamer eventually.
I wonder how many people suggesting marines have actually brought multiple people into the hobby and had them stay for more than a year.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
kingheff wrote: How about craftworlds with a focus on vehicles and wraiths? Cheap and decent kits, easy to paint, pretty durable and hard hitting, good support characters/psychic powers.
Eldar generally require you to line up a lot of parts to make work. Each individual part is OK, but if you want to make them work you really need to leverage synergies. I would not recommend them to a new player. Too much knowledge of what tool to use at the right time/place, and how to exploit the weakness of your opponent is required.
Marines are a lot more forgiving to play. They might not be the best at anything, but if you screw up, you generally have some slack. You screw up with Eldar, you fold like a pack of cards. With a vhecial/wraith army you avoid the problem of ultra-fragile elf bodies, but are locked into low model count skew list.
Pre supplements I'd have said space marines too but with so much choice/rules/stratagems etc I'm not sure it's true anymore.
Three squads of avengers/guardians in falcons/wave serpents backed by three fire prisms and some wraith lords led by a farseer, warlock and autarch on bikes? Pretty tough with plenty of dakka and not too much to keep track of, doom, executioner and jinx are not complicated for psychic powers but have great synergy.
I am starting my own first army sometime this year as I have time for that, and I sort of want to stay away from Primaris and stick with traditional Marines due to Primaris' controversial reputation among the fan-base and how apparently they fit the lore poorly.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I am starting my own first army sometime this year as I have time for that, and I sort of want to stay away from Primaris and stick with traditional Marines due to Primaris' controversial reputation among the fan-base and how apparently they fit the lore poorly.
Dont worry about "fanbase". Everyone has opinions but why should it affect you and what plastic solidiers you buy? Collect what models you want. If anyone seriously gives you flack then they are not worth worrying about anyway.
Roberts84 wrote: ... honestly I'm not sure why GW seems to have such a hard on for them.
They don't.
Ultramarines represent the default state of Marines - vanilla - and thus remain the core of that range. On top of that it's a simple case of branding in a lot of cases. If you have a bunch of boxes that all have the same blue colour scheme, it signifies to a new person that these all belong together.
Honestly the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Internet's overblown hate-boner for the Ultramarines.
Well I'll take a stab at it; they get models updates every other week, have absurd fluff, and haven't been remotely interesting since 3OK. Matt Ward probably has a Guilliman sex doll. Everywhere you look, it's ultramarines and captain planet to the rescue...they're such a trite, cliche' trope. I mean I don;t hate them but it would be nice for another chapter to take the lead in defending the Imperium now and again-- and maybe instead of every other chapter in the galaxy having to wait a decade for model upgrades, we could slow down the smurf train and give something--anything else priority for a change,.
The only thing I don't really understand is all the hate Guilliman seems to get in play. I mean he's an excellent unit, but I don't think he's even close to Mortarion on the op-o-meter.
in other words.. it's jealousy
Wow.. the marine player gloat & entitlement is relly showing...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/07 13:56:23
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I am starting my own first army sometime this year as I have time for that, and I sort of want to stay away from Primaris and stick with traditional Marines due to Primaris' controversial reputation among the fan-base and how apparently they fit the lore poorly.
Dont worry about "fanbase". Everyone has opinions but why should it affect you and what plastic solidiers you buy?
Collect what models you want. If anyone seriously gives you flack then they are not worth worrying about anyway.
But here's the thing, I also want to focus on traditional Marines. Basically the fanbase reaction and all the jokes (Adeptus Restartes, Ultra-Ultra-Marines, etc...) has spoilt Primaris for me. I want to collect the traditional Marines. Which apparently based on some posts on this thread is going to get harder due to GW cutting their production in favour of Primaris.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: But here's the thing, I also want to focus on traditional Marines. Basically the fanbase reaction and all the jokes (Adeptus Restartes, Ultra-Ultra-Marines, etc...) has spoilt Primaris for me. I want to collect the traditional Marines. Which apparently based on some posts on this thread is going to get harder due to GW cutting their production in favour of Primaris.
Seriously, ignore the "fanbase". Those are just a few people who stick out that are basically the same vocal minority you get on any topic. It's basically the same as old people complaining about the new internet stuff.
In reality, GW is not putting any effort into old marines anymore. If you are lucky, they get some point changes during Chapter Approved or some new startagems happen to work well with them. With the mild exception of chapter-specific models, all new releases and any balancing intentions will be focused on primaris. There is no evidence that GW won't keep producing old marine until their molds break, but they are for sure treated as second-grade units.
If you like the old marines because if their style, models or lore better then primaris, go for it. But ignore other people - especially on the internet - when it comes to deciding on what army to take.
DakkaDakka also provides an awesome service - they can ruin pretty much any faction and model for you, if that helps
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/07 15:20:53
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Salamanders make good use of old marines, a las cannon in a salamander tac squad is very efficient, same for things like multi melts attack bikes or twin las dreads. They're a good choice for the little fellas.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I am starting my own first army sometime this year as I have time for that, and I sort of want to stay away from Primaris and stick with traditional Marines due to Primaris' controversial reputation among the fan-base and how apparently they fit the lore poorly.
Tacticals belong to the dark age, while Primaris are the Marines of the renaissance, the departure from the dark age.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Eldar- 4436 pts
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
2k Points
Competition Index
