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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:

The game can't move forward because of the core rules though.


We mean different things by "the game moving forward."

My sisters got 4 brand new units this release; Tau got Shadowsun; GSC got a huge expansion; Orks got some new vehicles and minis are getting updated. Admechs are getting a flyer and a ton of new units, and the rules for combining subfactions mean that the 24 factions really do collapse into subgroups with an amazing variety of options.

That's what I mean by moving forward.

If you mean re-releasing the game, requiring all of the codexes to be re-released before we get anything new, I would respectfully suggest that what you are talking about is moving the game backwards. Because if there's a new edition, you know it's marine spam all over again for about a year before things can get remotely interesting again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/19 02:51:20


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

PenitentJake wrote:
Seven books is realistic- BRB, CA, Dex, Supplement, Vigilus Book, PA Book- that's six for a monofaction army. Here's the thing though: the Vigilus and PA books are optional- most of the stuff in them isn't particularly game breaking, and going without it against someone who is loaded up with it doesn't necessarily hurt your odds too badly. Now if you happen to like the stuff in those books and you want to use it, of course, that's fine, but then why complain about bloat? You like it and want to use it.

I use no books when I play- just my notes.
What I do is write out the units I'm using with all of their stats and special rules from all the various sources on a single page per unit. Yes, this means re-writing every rule that applies to each unit, redundant or not- the idea is every single thing you need to know about that unit is written out on its page: absolutely no cross referencing. Ever.

I even add a list of recommended strategems and synergies for each unit to help me make decisions quickly, and I include page numbers in case my opponent calls shenanigans.

Takes a bit of prep, but makes the game super smooth. The bonus is that writing all that stuff out assists with the memory work too. You can save a copy of every load out and just cut and paste to build an army. I like using a spreadsheet where every unit gets a page. Saving the template makes the process of entering the data really easy.

Before you argue that you shouldn't have to do it, which is valid, let me say that this is something I've always done for every edition- I always thought it was just part of the hobby and I'm kinda surprised there are people who don't do it.

Pa and Vigilus may be optional for loyalist marines, but for any other faction playing against loyalist marines there pretty much a requirement. Unless you like losing.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
PA is just a cash grab before they drop 9th edition and invalidate all the rules you just spend money on. Its been par for the course for the last couple editions to drop a new edition once all the codices are out and they drop a few supplements.


I won't deny the possibility, and certainly there is precedent.

But personally, I think the annual campaign + small release for every faction is the new business model, and I think they might stick with it. I hope they do; the game can move forward, with new units, new factions and we can finally see the end of finecast.

The game can't move forward because of the core rules though.


9th edition when it comes won't be a massive re-write. it'll be 8th edition with some modifications to repair the worst flaws

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
PA is just a cash grab before they drop 9th edition and invalidate all the rules you just spend money on. Its been par for the course for the last couple editions to drop a new edition once all the codices are out and they drop a few supplements.


I won't deny the possibility, and certainly there is precedent.

But personally, I think the annual campaign + small release for every faction is the new business model, and I think they might stick with it. I hope they do; the game can move forward, with new units, new factions and we can finally see the end of finecast.

The game can't move forward because of the core rules though.


9th edition when it comes won't be a massive re-write. it'll be 8th edition with some modifications to repair the worst flaws


Good luck...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
The PA books are primarily a rules expansion. Lore content is added as a reward for spending the money on the rules, so you'll likely be disappointed if you're not interested in both lore and rules.

Having said that, Psychic Awakening is more of a name for the series than any promise of content. Warpy things are happening all across the setting, but the stories aren't always going to be Warp related.
bibotot wrote:
+ The part focusing on the Astra Militarum never mentions the term Genestealer or Tyranids, only referring to the enemy as cultists and xenos. However, the secondary snippet where the Governess speaks with the priest about accepting help from the Tau, the term Genestealer appears, implying the characters are fully aware of the nature of the threat. This is so jarring due to its complete absence from the main part. Overall, the Genestealer threat is very widespread and every Imperial world should know about it. It makes no sense for the writer to avoid using the word whatsoever.
The size of Genestealer threat is a secret of the Inquisition, so the restricted use of the term is actually well in line with the setting.


Maybe the actual size of the Tyranids should be suppressed because of morale, but you must know the enemy to defeat them. What is the point of not letting Imperial leaders know the Genestealer threat and then have the entire world overrun? There is a difference between grimdark and cringeydark.
Genestealers are amoung the most subtle and insidious threats to humanity, even more so than Chaos. Planetary may know there are things such as Tyranids and Genestealers, but all the masses need to know is to shoot the Xenos. Even governors know little of their true threat, no one out side the Holy Ordos and maybe the chamber militants are trusted, lest it be used against them. Knowledge is Power, hide it well.


That is 100% cringeydark, not grimdark. I very much hate how grimdark has gone to become so slowed. We are in the year 2020, not 1980. GW has not grown for 40 years if that is what they are going for.

Imagine season 8 of the Walking Dead where someone gets bitten and the other survivors just disinfect and bandage up the wound.
It's less walking Dead and more Battlestar Galactica...
   
Made in ie
Preacher of the Emperor





bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
The PA books are primarily a rules expansion. Lore content is added as a reward for spending the money on the rules, so you'll likely be disappointed if you're not interested in both lore and rules.

Having said that, Psychic Awakening is more of a name for the series than any promise of content. Warpy things are happening all across the setting, but the stories aren't always going to be Warp related.
bibotot wrote:
+ The part focusing on the Astra Militarum never mentions the term Genestealer or Tyranids, only referring to the enemy as cultists and xenos. However, the secondary snippet where the Governess speaks with the priest about accepting help from the Tau, the term Genestealer appears, implying the characters are fully aware of the nature of the threat. This is so jarring due to its complete absence from the main part. Overall, the Genestealer threat is very widespread and every Imperial world should know about it. It makes no sense for the writer to avoid using the word whatsoever.
The size of Genestealer threat is a secret of the Inquisition, so the restricted use of the term is actually well in line with the setting.


Maybe the actual size of the Tyranids should be suppressed because of morale, but you must know the enemy to defeat them. What is the point of not letting Imperial leaders know the Genestealer threat and then have the entire world overrun? There is a difference between grimdark and cringeydark.
Genestealers are amoung the most subtle and insidious threats to humanity, even more so than Chaos. Planetary may know there are things such as Tyranids and Genestealers, but all the masses need to know is to shoot the Xenos. Even governors know little of their true threat, no one out side the Holy Ordos and maybe the chamber militants are trusted, lest it be used against them. Knowledge is Power, hide it well.


That is 100% cringeydark, not grimdark. I very much hate how grimdark has gone to become so slowed. We are in the year 2020, not 1980. GW has not grown for 40 years if that is what they are going for.

Imagine season 8 of the Walking Dead where someone gets bitten and the other survivors just disinfect and bandage up the wound.


40k works better as a setting within which you frame battles. Plot progression was/is the worst thing to happen to it. Also define "cringeydark". In fact, define "grimdark" as well because no one referred to 40k as "grimdark" until 4chan/1d4chan popularised the term.

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Please dont forget about the whole "unreliable narrator" angle to 40k. Just because the Imperium says they killed all the GSC does not mean they are all done. Especially when whole companies are "suddenly turning"
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




40k works better as a setting within which you frame battles. Plot progression was/is the worst thing to happen to it. Also define "cringeydark". In fact, define "grimdark" as well because no one referred to 40k as "grimdark" until 4chan/1d4chan popularised the term.

As someone who's been playing since 1989, methinks you give 4 chan/ 1d4 chan a bit too much credit here. Every edition since Rogue Trader has included the phrase "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war." At best, they helped popularize a contraction.

Saying 4 chan invented Grimdark is like saying the first person to write "isn't" invented the concept of "is not."

But the request for definitions is valid, though I suspect you'll get as many definitions as there are players. We all understand it, but we reference specific element of the concept when called upon to define it. For me, it involves the lack of good guys- even those who might otherwise be righteous have been pushed past the point of ethics in order to survive. Nothing stays pretty for ever, and there are no happy endings.

Orwell wrote in 1984, "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
To me,that's the epitome of Grimdark.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





40k works better as a setting within which you frame battles. Plot progression was/is the worst thing to happen to it. Also define "cringeydark". In fact, define "grimdark" as well because no one referred to 40k as "grimdark" until 4chan/1d4chan popularised the term.


As someone who's been playing since 1989, methinks you give 4 chan/ 1d4 chan a bit too much credit here. Every edition since Rogue Trader has included the phrase "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war." At best, they helped popularize a contraction.

Saying 4 chan invented Grimdark is like saying the first person to write "isn't" invented the concept of "is not."

But the request for definitions is valid, though I suspect you'll get as many definitions as there are players. We all understand it, but we reference specific element of the concept when called upon to define it. For me, it involves the lack of good guys- even those who might otherwise be righteous have been pushed past the point of ethics in order to survive. Nothing stays pretty for ever, and there are no happy endings.

Orwell wrote in 1984, "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
To me,that's the epitome of Grimdark.

UUUUURGH I hate when people phrase this quote this way. This is a quote by the villain of the novel. If you hold every novelist responsible for the quotes they put in the mouths of their antagonists, you assign some stupid, fethed-up opinions to those novelists. Here, let me give you a few more:

As JK Rowling wrote in Harry Potter: "There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it."

As Elie Wiesel wrote in Night: "I have more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. "

As George Lucas wrote in Star Wars: "There is only one plan—one great design which shall govern the universe—mine.”

As Walter Disney wrote in Aladdin: "The universe is mine to command, to control!"

Wow, seems like all these famous authors were horrible authoritarian monsters. huh. go figure.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





As George R.R. Martin famously said :

"HODOR"

Previous signature status: removed.
Next signature status: undecided, in hiatus 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




@the_scotsman: Good point; not necessarily Orwell's opinion. Still a pretty good discriptor of what grimdark is though, don't you think?
   
Made in ca
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Lammia wrote:
The PA books are primarily a rules expansion. Lore content is added as a reward for spending the money on the rules, so you'll likely be disappointed if you're not interested in both lore and rules.

Having said that, Psychic Awakening is more of a name for the series than any promise of content. Warpy things are happening all across the setting, but the stories aren't always going to be Warp related.
bibotot wrote:
+ The part focusing on the Astra Militarum never mentions the term Genestealer or Tyranids, only referring to the enemy as cultists and xenos. However, the secondary snippet where the Governess speaks with the priest about accepting help from the Tau, the term Genestealer appears, implying the characters are fully aware of the nature of the threat. This is so jarring due to its complete absence from the main part. Overall, the Genestealer threat is very widespread and every Imperial world should know about it. It makes no sense for the writer to avoid using the word whatsoever.
The size of Genestealer threat is a secret of the Inquisition, so the restricted use of the term is actually well in line with the setting.


Maybe the actual size of the Tyranids should be suppressed because of morale, but you must know the enemy to defeat them. What is the point of not letting Imperial leaders know the Genestealer threat and then have the entire world overrun? There is a difference between grimdark and cringeydark.
Genestealers are amoung the most subtle and insidious threats to humanity, even more so than Chaos. Planetary may know there are things such as Tyranids and Genestealers, but all the masses need to know is to shoot the Xenos. Even governors know little of their true threat, no one out side the Holy Ordos and maybe the chamber militants are trusted, lest it be used against them. Knowledge is Power, hide it well.


That is 100% cringeydark, not grimdark. I very much hate how grimdark has gone to become so slowed. We are in the year 2020, not 1980. GW has not grown for 40 years if that is what they are going for.

Imagine season 8 of the Walking Dead where someone gets bitten and the other survivors just disinfect and bandage up the wound.


Walking Dead is about a small group of survivors on one planet trying to survive against a threat that has been plaguing them for probanly years. You can compare them.

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

It's weird to me that so many people are dismissing the poor writing of the fluff in these books by saying that the fluff is just a bonus or a commercial or whatever for the rules updates.

Like, these expansion books are a 1:1 copy in concept of forgeworlds Imperial armor books, yet the writing in the Imperial armor expansions were some of the best writing that's ever come out of 40k. There's no reason beyond general incompetence for why the Psychic Awakening books can't be on the level of Taros Campaign or Siege of Vraks in regards to its fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/21 03:40:59


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

Well, no reason beyond page count. The Vraks story is insanely long and the average single book Imperial Armour has more pages of fluff than a GW Codex/campaign book has pages period. If you condensed the stories of those books down to what the average GW book has for fluff, the IA books wouldn't have nearly as good writing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/21 13:23:49


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Vraks was also a weird pseudo-trilogy that could have been stopped at two books tops.

Forge World was weird with how they did stuff. Imperial Armour 8(Raid at Kastorel-Novem) was supposed to be a two-parter, with the second part being a full-fledged war on the shrineworld that the raid was supposed to prevent....but that never materialized.

It was where we were supposed to get carapace armored Elysian veterans with hellguns, so Elysians could have their own version of DKoK's Grenadiers.
   
Made in nl
Ground Crew



Old Francia

 Kanluwen wrote:
carapace armored Elysian veterans with hellguns

Also know as Harakoni Warhawks, though seriously that sounds like a missed opportunity. Not that it matters now that the whole Elysian line got axed.

The IA books were generally decent with regards to narrative, Vraks got obtuse with three volumes and such little progress. Taros was interesting because I saw the Imperial defeat coming only a few pages in, though I'm not decided if that's positive or negative.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/21 14:21:06


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Caradman Sturnn wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
carapace armored Elysian veterans with hellguns

Also know as Harakoni Warhawks

No, also known as "Stormtroopers".

Their intention was to have a full line of Elysian units. Stormtroopers, commissars, and regimental advisors.
   
Made in nl
Ground Crew



Old Francia

 Kanluwen wrote:
Caradman Sturnn wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
carapace armored Elysian veterans with hellguns

Also know as Harakoni Warhawks

No, also known as "Stormtroopers".

Their intention was to have a full line of Elysian units. Stormtroopers, commissars, and regimental advisors.

Hey, cool it off Jackdaw, I thought the Harakoni's were droptroops only with carapace armor and hellguns. Expanding the elysian line made sense though, since they'd generally always struck me as under-strengthed.

Though mind you, due to rebranding, stormtroopers no longer exist as a distinct force, though the term does seem to linger on as a general unit designation, such as seen in the recent Sabbat Crusade book.

Anyhow lets not get into a discussion on such past issues. though if it were up to me I'd change hee Tempestus Scions back to stromtroopers, keep them distinct from the rank and file guardsmen, but remove the cultish elements from their background.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/21 17:58:59


 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's weird to me that so many people are dismissing the poor writing of the fluff in these books by saying that the fluff is just a bonus or a commercial or whatever for the rules updates.

Like, these expansion books are a 1:1 copy in concept of forgeworlds Imperial armor books, yet the writing in the Imperial armor expansions were some of the best writing that's ever come out of 40k. There's no reason beyond general incompetence for why the Psychic Awakening books can't be on the level of Taros Campaign or Siege of Vraks in regards to its fluff.


Really? My favorite IA was definitely IA1, where they had stuff about tank doctrines and how Leman Russes covered each other while on the march and all about the logistics and organization of Imperial Guard regiments, with mostly short like 2-page stories to introduce characters and unit. I really like the fluff when it's like "general" fluff, like "this is the standard issue kit of a Guardsman".

I think the best best part is the pictures that are models in a diorama dressed up to look like they're actually grainy photographs of the event in question, with appropriate captions.



As a side note, I think the Elysians are cool, way cooler than the DKoK, and it disappoints me how their fluff seem to exclusively be "Operation Market-Garden" repeated over and over again.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/21 18:42:27


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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