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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Galas wrote:
Also Martel I'm sorry but we are living in a post doctrines world.

Imperial Guard have been mid tier for more than half a year. Imperial Guardsmen are neligible to remove and their shooting output isnt even that good anymore compared with nearly everything else on the game. Any Space Marine army can remove 60-80 ork boyz a turn, it can do the same with imperial guardsmen. And Ork shooting is MUCH deadlier than imperial guard one.


Still really, really good for their price. EVen if you removed 80 guardsmen, that's what? 320 points? BA armies throw that many points away to establish "table position".

Once the elite shooting castles can't win anymore, which will happen soon, guardsmen will benefit tremendously.

I consider it significant to not bring guard allies anymore.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:28:20


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!
Fair. Are you taking them to big tournaments? And do you think they're actually the best troops choice, or you just take them because you like them?

'Cause there's nothing wrong with liking Tacticals, but they're just lacking compared to the other options.

I've taken them to small tournaments. Tacticals output more damage than Intercessors vs. the heavier (more expensive) targets I'm usually interested in focusing on. They can also ride the transports I'm interested in.

They ain't everyone's pick, but they're definitely my pick.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:42:58


 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:
ohh look another "let's complain about doctrines" thread. *takes a shot*

of course not being able to take allies is a draw back. but it's generally considered to be "worth it" I mean prior to the 8.5 marine codex how many compeitive "pure marine lists" where there?

That was my question: is it a drawback, and if so do the advantages make up for it? I've not heard anyone saying that loyalist marines should get doctrines and soup. I have however been told that souping without losing anything was an advantage for chaos.

There was one guy who got irate when I pointed out that if he wanted a super heavy that didn't break doctrines he could take an astreus instead of a knight. But that was just one guy.

So far the only complaint seems to be not taking guardsmen. And that's just Martel.
   
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No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:45:47


 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.

Is it really the guardsmen that are a loss or the cheap cp they provide?
   
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I don't miss the CP. I miss the table control and barrier to movement. They made my record vs other BA lists quite good. Other BA players discovered the limits of "flying over screens" very quickly. I don't play a CP thristy style. Or, at least, as little as possible.

Most BA players are gaga over scouts, and guardsmen are a much better value. Except for the doctrine thing, of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 01:11:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.

Is it really the guardsmen that are a loss or the cheap cp they provide?

Nah, infantry are a loss for sure. For the piss small investment you cover your home objectives SUPER well.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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On moon miranda.

Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Martel732 wrote:
They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.

They're fine. And considering it's trivial to get 70+ AP-3 2/D3 damage shots out an army, Intercessors aren't much tougher. If you want durability, get out of LOS or get into transports.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.

It's almost as though increasing your army's offensive output a stupid amount can do that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.

They're fine. And considering it's trivial to get 70+ AP-3 2/D3 damage shots out an army, Intercessors aren't much tougher. If you want durability, get out of LOS or get into transports.


AGree to disagree. They are pathetically flimsy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?


Well, the snowflake chapters lack GOOD ignore LoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 02:04:59


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
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On moon miranda.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.

It's almost as though increasing your army's offensive output a stupid amount can do that.
Aye, and that seems to be how GW is attempting to "balance" stuff at this point. They don't want to make stuff unkillable or resilient, they're far more willing to simply amp up the firepower instead.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

You’ve still got the relic scorpius.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Martel732 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?


Well, the snowflake chapters lack GOOD ignore LoS.

The FW Whirlwind Scorpius is pretty dang mean, and the Thunderfire is great for it's cost.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 02:12:44


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






How many factions have strong ignore LOS stuff anyways? Guard and Tyranids off the top of my head. Eldar kind of with their DR Exarchs, but that's not very high S.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.


Is it even in production still?
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.


Is it even in production still?

A simple visit to the FW site says yes.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.
   
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I'm not the only one who dislikes FW to be fair. But yea, it seem likely to survive FW realignment.
   
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I don't use FW for my marines either, (or Primaris), but I'm not going to claim they aren't available.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I think I have a stronger argument for the chappy dread. Marines have way too many units. But yes, they can roll it out for ignore LoS. For now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 03:44:06


 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

There's no "for now" to it. The model is still in production, it'll be in the new fw books. If it makes you feel better the chaplain dreadnought is OOP so it'll probably be heading to legends.
   
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I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 04:18:41


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs


You get chapter masters that aren't chapter masters. That's better than most snowflake units right there.
   
 
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