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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.



Hmm... The CSM list has little upgrade flex in PL, so --

MoP - 88
CSM - 55 + 4 + 7
Oblits - 95 + 95
VC - 115

459 total. 22 PL is 440. So, theoretically the CSM could go up 1 point each, but their PL stays.

If MoP is 90ish then he's 5 PL. Oblits could be 100 and still 5 PL. VC will be above 100, so 6 PL. That leaves just 1 PL for the CSM.

I'm so confused. They could be rounding PL down now, too?
Correction to my prior post: I forgot to add the second Obliterator to the list. CSM List is currently 28 PL and 458 points. That's very interesting should points values go up on all units while the PL drops for this force. That doesn't really make sense, unless they are rounding down on PL like you suggested.

Quick guess:
MP 90 - PL 4?
VC 120 - PL 6?
Oblits - 200 for 2 PL 10?
That's 20 PL for 410 points and leaves only 2 PL for the CSM. Somebody here is getting a discount or their list is wrong.
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 16:08:01


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.



Hmm... The CSM list has little upgrade flex in PL, so --

MoP - 88
CSM - 55 + 4 + 7
Oblits - 95 + 95
VC - 115

459 total. 22 PL is 440. So, theoretically the CSM could go up 1 point each, but their PL stays.

If MoP is 90ish then he's 5 PL. Oblits could be 100 and still 5 PL. VC will be above 100, so 6 PL. That leaves just 1 PL for the CSM.

I'm so confused. They could be rounding PL down now, too?



The CSM list is 28 PL currently unless they've seriously changed the obliterator warscroll recently. 2 Oblits is 12, MP is 5, 5 CSM are 4 and your VC is 7.

My guess is that it's only SUPPOSED to be 1 oblit. It's way too convenient that it's exactly the second oblit less than it is now. I think it being 2 is either a typo or they used a 500 point list to make the article instead of a 25 PL list. Which could be its own clue.

Here's the thing though, assuming the chaos one is just a typo, both the chaos and admech lists are unchanged as far as PL go. Which to me says that this is either pre-points bump PL or they aren't changing PL at all. I lean towards they aren't changing PL at all.

Which means you can go ahead and start mathing out what you want to bring in from outflank now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).


Want some cheese to go with that?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/26 16:18:06


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Oblits needed to go down in points anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Tycho wrote:
I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).


And what have they doubled down on?

   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Something that I just realized I missed. Patrols require one troops choice. The only thing in the loyalist list that could possibly be a troops choice is assault intercessors. So assault intercessors are troops, which is what I expected.

Sorry if this is something that's already been revealed and I didn't hear about it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Something that I just realized I missed. Patrols require one troops choice. The only thing in the loyalist list that could possibly be a troops choice is assault intercessors. So assault intercessors are troops, which is what I expected.

Sorry if this is something that's already been revealed and I didn't hear about it.


They were being... incredibly weird about it on stream.

"aha, we can't say assault intercessors are troops, but something must be aha".
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

They were "wink, wink, nudge, nudging" about the fact that they aren't cleared to say what FOC the units are in, but one of them has to be a Troops choice since it is a Patrol detachment. It was left as an exercise to the viewer to decide which.

I am sure we can all agree that the idea that anything other than the Assault Intercessors being Troops is bonkers.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

I've genuinely been wondering if Assault Intercessors are going to be a loadout option for standard Intercessors, much like how Chaos Marines can be loaded up with BP+CCWs.

Maybe that's why they were being so weird about it?
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

The fact that they are called Assault Intercessors and not Intercessors means they will be a different squad. Doubly true since they will be a different box in the model range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 17:01:10


 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Kanluwen wrote:
I've genuinely been wondering if Assault Intercessors are going to be a loadout option for standard Intercessors, much like how Chaos Marines can be loaded up with BP+CCWs.

Maybe that's why they were being so weird about it?

Nah, separate box = separate data sheet for gw. Just like tartaros and cataphractii terminators. They're in a different box so they can't just be terminators that look different, they need their own data sheet.

Actually, isn't that why loyalists have the two distinct data sheets for indomutus pattern terminators as well instead of having one with the full selection of options like csm?

Edit:
Ninja'd by Alextroy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 17:09:24


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I've genuinely been wondering if Assault Intercessors are going to be a loadout option for standard Intercessors, much like how Chaos Marines can be loaded up with BP+CCWs.

Maybe that's why they were being so weird about it?

Nah, separate box = separate data sheet for gw. Just like tartaros and cataphractii terminators. They're in a different box so they can't just be terminators that look different, they need their own data sheet.

Actually, isn't that why loyalists have the two distinct data sheets for indomutus pattern terminators as well instead of having one with the full selection of options like csm?

Edit:
Ninja'd by Alextroy.


In the case of the "standard" Terminator squads, I think it's a tradition/Codex-method-of-fighting thing than anything else - they've been that was back to 2nd edition, off the top of my head, and I think both styles were "buy the metal blister packs" back then.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 alextroy wrote:
The fact that they are called Assault Intercessors and not Intercessors means they will be a different squad. Doubly true since they will be a different box in the model range.

Which really doesn't mean anything when it comes to Marines, and especially doesn't mean anything when the units aren't being released at the same time.

Like I said: I've been wondering about this. Troops is already a ridiculously bloated slot for Marines, an 'elite' army when one considers that they have no Cultist-esque unit.

We have:
-Scouts
-Tactical Squad
-Infiltrators
-Incursors
-Intercessors

We don't need "Assault Intercessors" taking up a slot. And if we're going to be realistic? Them getting their own box wouldn't be a huge deal to anyone except Chaos Marine players(and rightly so), since the Codex Space Marines schtick for Primaris is "no mixing and matching wargear except for maybe an auxiliary grenade launcher on some guys and the sergeant with some goodies".
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Want some cheese to go with that?


Yes please. I find it often goes well with legitimate complaints.

And what have they doubled down on?


What takes games of 8th so long to complete? It's the model count right? Because we were playing with almost the same count in 7th but games generally didn't take as long. So that ... oh wait no, it's not the model count at all, so I'm glad we're getting the "points increase". No, it's rerolls and strats. The problem isn't just CP farming (which they seem to have fixed), it's the fact that the game is so heavily balanced on it at all. The strats, combined with the amount of dice we need to roll, plus the amount of dice we reroll are what's adding to the game length. They appear to be pushing this harder rather than letting up on it. Go play a 1500 point game with all the strats, rerolls etc, and then play a 2000 point game with the same two armies, but either don't use rerolls and strats at all, or limit how many you can have. Watch how much faster the 2000 point game plays. It is often significant.

They have talked about wanting to address how long the "fastest playing edition of 40k ever" takes to complete a game, but so far, I haven't seen a whole that says the games won't be longer ...


Yea, though is it scaled properly with Primaris now? It may be. But then Cultists are 6 -- are they benefiting from something else greatly? Still too much missing from the big picture here.


Agreed. I'm wondering if maybe the cultists will start being able to benefit from certain Legion traits again or something like that. I know their original stated purpose for points increases was to have less models on the table for a faster game, but even with the limited info we currently have, that really doesn't seem like the actual goal ....

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Tycho wrote:


What takes games of 8th so long to complete? It's the model count right? Because we were playing with almost the same count in 7th but games generally didn't take as long. So that ... oh wait no, it's not the model count at all, so I'm glad we're getting the "points increase". No, it's rerolls and strats. The problem isn't just CP farming (which they seem to have fixed), it's the fact that the game is so heavily balanced on it at all. The strats, combined with the amount of dice we need to roll, plus the amount of dice we reroll are what's adding to the game length. They appear to be pushing this harder rather than letting up on it. Go play a 1500 point game with all the strats, rerolls etc, and then play a 2000 point game with the same two armies, but either don't use rerolls and strats at all, or limit how many you can have. Watch how much faster the 2000 point game plays. It is often significant.


I can't say for sure if games will be longer or shorter. It will probably take a month or two before we could memorize the rules and play with clocks.

I can't imagine calling these things doubling down :
- Model count begets dice, so, it follows that smaller counts could help.
- The dice added for morale is infinitesimal to the dice lost from O/W.
- The reserves will almost certainly be used often. The CP use there coupled with CP use on allies and detachments on top fixing the value creates a likelihood of games with lower CP than before.

There's still a lot we don't know, but they certainly haven't netted more dice nor have they pumped up stratagems. I'm not particularly concerned about game length as I am for seeing them level the playing field a bit more, but I feel these changes accomplish that, too.

   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




I can't say for sure if games will be longer or shorter. It will probably take a month or two before we could memorize the rules and play with clocks.

I can't imagine calling these things doubling down :
- Model count begets dice, so, it follows that smaller counts could help.
- The dice added for morale is infinitesimal to the dice lost from O/W.
- The reserves will almost certainly be used often. The CP use there coupled with CP use on allies and detachments on top fixing the value creates a likelihood of games with lower CP than before.

There's still a lot we don't know, but they certainly haven't netted more dice nor have they pumped up stratagems. I'm not particularly concerned about game length as I am for seeing them level the playing field a bit more, but I feel these changes accomplish that, too.


Your first point isn't strictly accurate. I can have a 3 model squad put out more dice than a 5 or 10 man squad depending on what it is, and if you want to lower model count enough to have a significant impact (and assuming 9th really does end up being a small "adjustment" rather than a truly "new" edition) you need to get to something closer to 1500 or 1650 in "8th ed points" before there's a measurable impact. So far what we've seen is more in the area of like 1850, which is basically one marine squad. That's just not enough IMO. That said I also suspect the promise that 9th is basically just a cleaning up of 8th will aslo turn out to be a bit of a stretch so maybe a 150 point increase will have an impact.

I agree to a point in your next bullet, but we've already seen them hand out O/W exceptions, and there will certainly be more to come so saying we saved a lot of dice is probably not going to be entirely accurate, and we still have reroll mechanics so again, it's probably a negligible gain (I wasn't really worried about the dice added for moral because, like you said, it's not enough I don't think to significantly impact game length).

While I agree we have probably seen the last of the days of an army appearing at the table with 20+ CP, we still have an awful lot with an additional point added per turn and they are still counting on strats being a major part of the game. On top of that, we still have weight of fire issues. Units that roll, and then (probably) reroll a million dice. Everyone was upset about hordes, but I can put together a space marine army that will roll MORE dice when it shoots than some large Ork armies. So weight of dice is a problem even IF the O/W change ends up savign a ton of rolls, we still have reroll auras so that's not going away, and more than likely most of the strats will also be "reroll x". So far, they've basically ignored the REAL reason the games are taking longer. The "elephant in the room" is the fact that the core mechanics are causing the length to drag. It has nothing to do with model count, and they have pretty much danced around that so far.

EDITED: Because my typing lately is not too dissimilar to a one armed monkey wailing on a keyboard while wearing an oven mitt ...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/26 21:59:23


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

In the previews we've seen, I haven't see many big changes to speed up play. The points adjustment helps, less overwatch helps, and the tripointing changes will help, but none of those are going to shave more than a few minutes off of the average match.

So if we continue to play at 2k points I imagine we'll still be doing three hour rounds. I'm not a huge fan of that duration, which is why I hope things like combat patrol catch on. I think the hobby is large enough now that there is an opportunity for more than one style of play to be popular/supported, and I think that's GW's angle.

Imagine being able to switch between a 500 point meta and a 2k point meta as whim strikes you. Get sick of seeing the same list over and over, jump tracks and suddenly it's the game you know but different.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Grimgold wrote:
Imagine being able to switch between a 500 point meta and a 2k point meta as whim strikes you. Get sick of seeing the same list over and over, jump tracks and suddenly it's the game you know but different.


I suppose that's true, but honestly I expect the game to break at 500pts unless they make some significant changes with smaller games in mind. Abilities like Unstoppable Green Tide, or Reanimation Protocols on a 20-strong unit of Warriors, are fine at larger games but become downright oppressive at smaller points values. Primaris get a heck of a lot harder to deal with when you don't have access to lots of D2 platforms. I can't see Tau doing too great on tiny boards without the numbers to really make use of FtGG. It'll be different for sure; but I figure it'll be more of a narrative/Crusade/intro game mode rather than something competitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 21:43:10


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Grimgold wrote:
Imagine being able to switch between a 500 point meta and a 2k point meta as whim strikes you. Get sick of seeing the same list over and over, jump tracks and suddenly it's the game you know but different.


I suppose that's true, but honestly I expect the game to break at 500pts unless they make some significant changes with smaller games in mind. Abilities like Unstoppable Green Tide, or Reanimation Protocols on a 20-strong unit of Warriors, are fine at larger games but become downright oppressive at smaller points values. Primaris get a heck of a lot harder to deal with when you don't have access to lots of D2 platforms. I can't see Tau doing too great on tiny boards without the numbers to really make use of FtGG. It'll be different for sure; but I figure it'll be more of a narrative/Crusade/intro game mode rather than something competitive.


I agree that I'd love to see several different metas existing at several different point levels. Would be pretty cool! They've also hinted at having different points levels (there's that one chart), but as you say, the game doesn't really function well right now at anything under 1000(imo) unless it's something like a marine vs marine mirror match, and even then, it can be wonky when you go as low as 500. The amount of change required is significant, which is just another reason why I'm expecting that they are either about to step in it big time, or haven't been 100% up-front about the amount of change this edition will be asking for. Happy to be proven wrong though. I'll be the first one here joking about myself if 9th drops and my current comments are way off-base in retrospect. Fingers crossed!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's no way 500 point battle will be vaguely balanced unless everyone agrees to take deliberately non-skewed lists.

Like for example if you show up to a 500 point game with an ad mech list that takes a an enginseer and 5 rangers - 65 points under current values - and then loads up the other 400-435 with 2 disintegrators and a bomber or something like that, you're just going to win most of your games before they even start because lots of lists simply won't have an answer for that. For example, none of their sample lists stand a chance against that list.

There's just far too much room for skew in a 500 point match for it to be competitive without much stricter limits on the units you can take than the patrol imposes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 22:12:19


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




There's no way 500 point battle will be vaguely balanced unless everyone agrees to take deliberately non-skewed lists.

Like for example if you show up to a 500 point game with an ad mech list that takes a an enginseer and 5 rangers - 75 points under current values - and then loads up the other 400-425 with 2 disintegrators and a bomber or something like that, you're just going to win most of your games before they even start because lots of lists simply won't have an answer for that. For example, none of their sample lists stand a chance against that list.

There's just far too much room for skew in a 500 point match for it to be competitive without much stricter limits on the units you can take than the patrol imposes.


That's why I'm saying it's concerning to see the "Matched Play Points Levels Chart" with the "Combat Patrol" level being set to 500. I keep saying this, but we are either about to get a huge heaping of "8th but worse", OR 9th will actually be way better, but also a completely different game (despite them saying otherwise). I think the day 1 FAQs to 8th ed codexes will essentially be almost total rewrites to accommodate a lot of this, which is fine, but don't tell me how this will just be a cleaning up and still fairly similar. I'm just not convinced they can pull this off the way they're claiming. If they DO manage to do it, I'll get a "James Workshop" tattoo because as it stands, the goal posts are pretty darn far from where they're kicking the ball ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am sure the PR spin about playing the game at other values is just that, PR spin. Yes, you can technically do it, but the game will be balanced for 2000 points. There's no way for a ruleset to be balanced at both 500 points and 2000 points without severe limits on what you can take at 500 points, which there is no indication that there are.

And that's fine with me, honestly. If people want to have fun games at 500 points fine, great. It just won't be competitively balanced, and that's ok in my book.
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




I am sure the PR spin about playing the game at other values is just that, PR spin. Yes, you can technically do it, but the game will be balanced for 2000 points. There's no way for a ruleset to be balanced at both 500 points and 2000 points without severe limits on what you can take at 500 points, which there is no indication that there are.

And that's fine with me, honestly. If people want to have fun games at 500 points fine, great. It just won't be competitively balanced, and that's ok in my book.


It's in the actual Matched Play rules. It's not PR spin. It's actually in the rules. They aren't claiming "500 point narrative fun games". They're claiming they have a system that will work at those levels using what is essentially only a "cleaning up" of the current rules. That's not PR spin. It's what they're actually claiming. That's where I have issues with it. I don't think they can deliver on that promise unless 9th as a whole is shaping up to be something very different than what they're actually claiming.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 22:15:44


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well that's what I mean, it is PR spin no matter what they say it is. Unless they place much stricter limits on what you can take at 500 points than the patrol detachment inherently contains, balanced games will not be possible.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
The fact that they are called Assault Intercessors and not Intercessors means they will be a different squad. Doubly true since they will be a different box in the model range.

Which really doesn't mean anything when it comes to Marines, and especially doesn't mean anything when the units aren't being released at the same time.

Like I said: I've been wondering about this. Troops is already a ridiculously bloated slot for Marines, an 'elite' army when one considers that they have no Cultist-esque unit.

We have:
-Scouts
-Tactical Squad
-Infiltrators
-Incursors
-Intercessors

We don't need "Assault Intercessors" taking up a slot. And if we're going to be realistic? Them getting their own box wouldn't be a huge deal to anyone except Chaos Marine players(and rightly so), since the Codex Space Marines schtick for Primaris is "no mixing and matching wargear except for maybe an auxiliary grenade launcher on some guys and the sergeant with some goodies".

Well we could toss Incursors away since nobody asked for them. Assault Intercessors should really just be a profile in the regular Intercessor profile. However knowing GW they might not do that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tycho wrote:
Want some cheese to go with that?


Yes please. I find it often goes well with legitimate complaints.

And what have they doubled down on?


What takes games of 8th so long to complete? It's the model count right? Because we were playing with almost the same count in 7th but games generally didn't take as long. So that ... oh wait no, it's not the model count at all, so I'm glad we're getting the "points increase". No, it's rerolls and strats. The problem isn't just CP farming (which they seem to have fixed), it's the fact that the game is so heavily balanced on it at all. The strats, combined with the amount of dice we need to roll, plus the amount of dice we reroll are what's adding to the game length. They appear to be pushing this harder rather than letting up on it. Go play a 1500 point game with all the strats, rerolls etc, and then play a 2000 point game with the same two armies, but either don't use rerolls and strats at all, or limit how many you can have. Watch how much faster the 2000 point game plays. It is often significant.

They have talked about wanting to address how long the "fastest playing edition of 40k ever" takes to complete a game, but so far, I haven't seen a whole that says the games won't be longer ...


Yea, though is it scaled properly with Primaris now? It may be. But then Cultists are 6 -- are they benefiting from something else greatly? Still too much missing from the big picture here.


Agreed. I'm wondering if maybe the cultists will start being able to benefit from certain Legion traits again or something like that. I know their original stated purpose for points increases was to have less models on the table for a faster game, but even with the limited info we currently have, that really doesn't seem like the actual goal ....


What legitimate complaint? Your entirely out of context b***ch moaning? You throw out a vague complaint about 'GW doubling down on a lot of mechanics that are dragging down game length', like that's not 100% just a whine. If you had said how, IN THE ARTICLE THE THREAD IS TALKING ABOUT, GW was doing that or what mechanics were dragging down game length, then it would have been legitimate. But you didn't.

You came in here, shouted I DON'T LIKE STUFF ABOUT THE GAME!!! #SADFACE and that was the whole post. That is literally what a whine is.

You might have had legitimate concerns in other posts you made, but the one that was quoted earlier was 100% grade-A, accomplishes nothing for no one, whining.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/26 23:10:54


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What legitimate complaint? Your entirely out of context b***ch moaning? You throw out a vague complaint about 'GW doubling down on a lot of mechanics that are dragging down game length', like that's not 100% just a whine. If you had said how, IN THE ARTICLE THE THREAD IS TALKING ABOUT, GW was doing that or what mechanics were dragging down game length, then it would have been legitimate. But you didn't.

You came in here, shouted I DON'T LIKE STUFF ABOUT THE GAME!!! #SADFACE and that was the whole post. That is literally what a whine is.

You might have had legitimate concerns in other posts you made, but the one that was quoted earlier was 100% grade-A, accomplishes nothing for no one, whining.


So I've laid out my exact specific thoughts so many times in so many threads in the last week or so, and so many people in this thread were also in those that I didn't really feel like that post needed elaboration. I've been pointing out from day 1 where I think they're going wrong w/9th and this is one of the things I predicted. Figured I'd try to spare everyone the word for word repost again. Even posted the salt-pounding icon to make fun of the post a bit. I'm sorry you have been upset by it.




Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Well that's what I mean, it is PR spin no matter what they say it is. Unless they place much stricter limits on what you can take at 500 points than the patrol detachment inherently contains, balanced games will not be possible.


At 500 points every list is going to be specialized, you might have a nidzilla list that's mostly monsters, or some kind of pox walker list that has a ton of models. I think making a TAC list will be super hard, because your not going to have the tools to do that at 500 points. So every list will have things they are good at, and things they can't do. So battles will come down to two factors, does your specialty counter their specialty, and who plays the mission better. Take a look at the example mission, aside from whatever secondaries you chose, there are no VPs for killing, and there are not going to be 3 secondaries around eliminating opponents. The Big stompy ad mech list mentioned earlier in the thread could kill opponents just fine, but will have a hard time completing objectives. If you can't get enough bodies on objectives to take them and/or keep your opponents from circle capping them, that mission is going to be a nightmare.

If they get the missions right, list built to score will handily out do list built around wiping out your opponent. You see this in kill team, were custodes are immortal killing machines, but often get rolled by a guant slapping the close door button while his broodmates go and squat on objectives. If all your list does is eliminate units, you'll table your opponent by turn 4, and then lose on points anyway. The focus on mission over murder is one of the (possibly few) things Kill team did right, it's resulted in a highly dynamic meta even in a system where there is a lot of variability in the relative strength of the factions. Like someone took first in a GT with the gellarpox infected, who are arguably the weakest faction in kill team. It would have been like winning a major with pre PA dark angels.

Will it actually work, who knows. I'm realistic enough to know that people will be net listing five minutes after this gets popular, and then the question will be is the mission design good enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. With GWs goal in mind, don't judge the style of play just by the list that can be built, because the missions will be at least as important as the list.

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Tycho wrote:
I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).

And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 03:41:09


 
   
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 Grimgold wrote:


At 500 points every list is going to be specialized, you might have a nidzilla list that's mostly monsters, or some kind of pox walker list that has a ton of models. I think making a TAC list will be super hard, because your not going to have the tools to do that at 500 points. So every list will have things they are good at, and things they can't do. So battles will come down to two factors, does your specialty counter their specialty, and who plays the mission better. Take a look at the example mission, aside from whatever secondaries you chose, there are no VPs for killing, and there are not going to be 3 secondaries around eliminating opponents. The Big stompy ad mech list mentioned earlier in the thread could kill opponents just fine, but will have a hard time completing objectives. If you can't get enough bodies on objectives to take them and/or keep your opponents from circle capping them, that mission is going to be a nightmare.

If they get the missions right, list built to score will handily out do list built around wiping out your opponent. You see this in kill team, were custodes are immortal killing machines, but often get rolled by a guant slapping the close door button while his broodmates go and squat on objectives. If all your list does is eliminate units, you'll table your opponent by turn 4, and then lose on points anyway. The focus on mission over murder is one of the (possibly few) things Kill team did right, it's resulted in a highly dynamic meta even in a system where there is a lot of variability in the relative strength of the factions. Like someone took first in a GT with the gellarpox infected, who are arguably the weakest faction in kill team. It would have been like winning a major with pre PA dark angels.

Will it actually work, who knows. I'm realistic enough to know that people will be net listing five minutes after this gets popular, and then the question will be is the mission design good enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. With GWs goal in mind, don't judge the style of play just by the list that can be built, because the missions will be at least as important as the list.


But doesn't that just skew the game in horde favour? The more elite armies may not have the fire power to deal with someone playing with a 40-50 9 pts models, at the same time 40-50 bolters kill those 20+ pts models same fast as they did in larger games. 500pts for an elite army , is either one good squads or two squads of troops with a really bad HQ to lead them. Also armies that are build around the idea of cycling 5-6 abilities on 3-4 characters and 4-5 units are not going to work at all. Those 500pts games don't sound very fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).

And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).


Did they say which type of the game? Because if the use politicians or corpo speak, then something like w40k games are going to be faster, Can mean something like, if you pay 500pts crusad against the best of best friends and never have any rule problems or disagreements about rules or terrain the game is going to take less time to play then a 2000pts match played 8th ed game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 04:08:19


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