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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tycho wrote:
I wouldn't be terribly shocked if a new general SM codex came by January. There is just so much new stuff coming.

But yeah, old marines getting 2 w seems unlikely (at best)


Infuriating as this will be for many, I would not be even a little surprised if the first codex is marines.

That said, I will be very surprised if that book gives oldmarines 2 wounds. I would also find it completely hillarious for so many reasons ...



Actually, the complete opposite for me. I'd much rather have Speese mehreens get the 1st codex treatment because the last time my orkz went first (only time) we had arguably the WORST most under powered POS codex in the game. And as many people keep saying "Theyve already written on the codex's blah blah blah" 1: I don't believe that for a second, and 2: even if they did, i guarantee they still feth up the first one or two.

As far as Tactical Marines getting 2 wounds. Not going to happen. besides the obvious arguments that have already hashed out comparing tacs to primaris, there is also the simple fact that a 15pt troop choice with 2w and a 3+ save would be slightly....over powered.

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SemperMortis wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I wouldn't be terribly shocked if a new general SM codex came by January. There is just so much new stuff coming.

But yeah, old marines getting 2 w seems unlikely (at best)


Infuriating as this will be for many, I would not be even a little surprised if the first codex is marines.

That said, I will be very surprised if that book gives oldmarines 2 wounds. I would also find it completely hillarious for so many reasons ...



Actually, the complete opposite for me. I'd much rather have Speese mehreens get the 1st codex treatment because the last time my orkz went first (only time) we had arguably the WORST most under powered POS codex in the game. And as many people keep saying "Theyve already written on the codex's blah blah blah" 1: I don't believe that for a second, and 2: even if they did, i guarantee they still feth up the first one or two.

As far as Tactical Marines getting 2 wounds. Not going to happen. besides the obvious arguments that have already hashed out comparing tacs to primaris, there is also the simple fact that a 15pt troop choice with 2w and a 3+ save would be slightly....over powered.


Would it though? Compared to what? Compared to Primaris? It wouldn't be. The latest SM codex and its supplements set a new standard for how things are, and we clearly see that they haven't backed off from that with the new points changes. If other factions are going to be brought up to that standard, then 2W tacs wouldn't be a big deal at all. 2W intercessors are good, but they aren't breaking the game because they are 2W troops, even when they were cheaper. They were garbage for almost all of 8th and had 2w! The problem is levels of firepower due to doctrines and super doctrines.

I agree that it's an unlikely change though, but not because it would be that strong proportionally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 05:16:20


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Seems like a moot point since giving them 2W would only happen in a new codex... which would also have new points.

Admittedly, I’m in favor of the change, but I don’t see it happening.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range. But I don't remember anyone complaining about them until they got doctrines. If tacs got 2W and end up OP, it won't be the 2W that's the problem. And I wouldn't expect it to break CSM as they don't have doctrines.

Note that I don't think 2W is a good solution for the classic MeQ statline's problem. It would be silly. But I don't think it would be broken or OP. It would return them to pre-8th levels of durability vs weapons with a bit of AP, but might be too much vs ap0.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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If they bumped SM and CSM to 2 wounds they should do the same to other elites, too. I'm not even opposed to that if other factions got widespread access to AP weapons like Marines (and Necrons) have. In the end you'd have nice levels of resilience, 1W for the real hordes like Gaunts, Daemons, Tau(though they got armor and nice weapons), IG, Ork boys, 2W for tough infantry and 3 wounds for really tough infantry or infantry with heavy Armour (which would mean all Terminators).
So, which other units should have 2W, too? Aspect Warriors? Ork Elites? Necron elites (many of these already have T5)? Incubi?
   
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I would be fine with this, I would even like it. They should give 2W to oldmarines, CSM and comparable elite infantry models (Necron Immortals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, ...).
Provided they balance the points accordingly, of course.


 
   
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 Aenar wrote:
I would be fine with this, I would even like it. They should give 2W to oldmarines, CSM and comparable elite infantry models (Necron Immortals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, ...).
Provided they balance the points accordingly, of course.


Well they already gutted the points of a lot of troop units. DE warriors went from 6 to 9 pts, and they weren't good at 6pts! Even with 2W, 3T 5+ is squishy. Same situation for Guardians.

Again, I think this is highly unlikely.

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Well, I hope not.
Cheap Tactials can also fill gaps in an army.

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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range. But I don't remember anyone complaining about them until they got doctrines.


Once Bolter Discipline became a thing they became a lot better than most Marine players seem to give them credit for, certainly better than most factions' Troops choices.

I think getting effectively a 2pt drop on that profile, while simultaneously everything else in the game goes up in points, would definitely be OP. A 2W Tactical vs 3 Guardsmen is no contest, let alone vs 1.5-2 Guardians, Kabalites, or Skitarii Rangers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 13:39:21


 
   
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I'm not sure why people think that having oldmarines at 2 wounds wouldn't put them up in price...

More stats == more points. That's how the whole game works

   
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Ottawa, Canada

Considering the amount of 2 damage weapons out there, I don't see how this would make them OP.

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Gig Harbor, WA

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how quickly people forgot that the initial primaris release sucked...

I wouldn't hold my breath for tacs getting two wounds, though.


Yeah the version 2 codex seems to have traumatized everyone so much they forgot about version 1.
   
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Galef wrote:
As much as I'd like there to be no such thing as a 1W Marine (aside from scouts), I just don't think they'll ever do that.
You'd need to do that same for Chaos Marines too.
And as others have stated, what would the point be for Primaris

I'd actually not be upset at this point if they moved Tactical Marines to "Legends" and then bumped Chaos Marines to 2W

-.


Seems unlikely that Chaos Marines would get 2W:

Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’

Reynolds, Josh. Manflayer (Fabius Bile: Warhammer 40,000 Book 3) . Kindle Edition.

Did GW turn CSM into the scrappy underdogs resisting an overwhelming force on purpose? Lines like these don't tend to come from the antagonists' side.
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Won't happen.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not going to happen. Oldmarines are intentionally being soft-Squatted.


Yeah I agree with this.

I'm sure Old marines wont make it past 10th, 10th or sooner will separate the books into First borne and Primaris, then they will be legends. So 6-7yrs give or take a year.


people said that about firstborn in 9th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 19:34:58


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
Voss wrote:


Seems unlikely that Chaos Marines would get 2W:

Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’

Reynolds, Josh. Manflayer (Fabius Bile: Warhammer 40,000 Book 3) . Kindle Edition.

Did GW turn CSM into the scrappy underdogs resisting an overwhelming force on purpose? Lines like these don't tend to come from the antagonists' side.


Well, its slightly more complicated than that.
Partly its Reynolds' last BL book. So it might be a parting nose tweak (this exchange is supremely disconnected from the actual story, which wrapped up a couple thousand years earlier in M37), but then again, GW would have a lot of approval power, and they let it pass.

The line is also delivered by a... formerly disgraced Sons of Horus Apothecary that is serving Abaddon solely out of desire not to be squished, as he's pretty well established as a coward. So he has an inherently unreliable PoV on the situation. He's conveying a request from Abaddon for a counter to Primaris, but the whole exchange is very meta ['Ezekyle wants something to counter them, doesn’t he? How predictable. They make oversized warriors, we make oversized warriors.’ He shook his head. ‘A galaxy of children, squabbling over their toys.’] It even raises weird questions about the depiction of Fabius himself in the brand new model.

Personally, I find the whole exchange amusing, but it really displays the roughness of the game/fluff divide. But if you take it straight, yes. Chaos are absolutely the underdogs.
That shows up in a lot of the BL chaos novels (certainly the Ahriman trilogy is another example, but all three Fabius books show him off as a fringer who has to bargain badly for other people's power, and then turn the situation around). They're under-supplied scavengers with enemies in and out of the Eye, just scraping by and that Imperium outside isn't really something they can affect. They endure the long, long years punctuated by their inner demons and personal enemies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/21 20:17:46


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.

Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!

Yeah no. Screw that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.


Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.

Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!

Yeah no. Screw that.
They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.

A brief history of Havocs:
2nd Ed. They didn't exist, but CSMs could have up to three specials or Heavies in a squad, because Chaos is less regimented than loyalists. No FOC exists at this time, Troops are just any infantry unit, basically.

3rd Ed Havocs are created, and are just CSMs with three ranged weapon upgrades moved to the Heavy Support slot, which was new at the time.

3.5 Ed. They get four weapons to make them even with loyalist Devastators.

And so on until the middle of 8th Ed.

Havocs are literally just CSMs with a higher proportion of heavy/special weaponry, created because of the FOC brought about by 3rd edition. Fluff-wise they were pitch perfect, because CSMs don't follow the loyalist structure. CSM blob with two or fewer specials = Troops, CSM squad with 3 or more? Heavy Support. Otherwise identical because they're the same friggin guys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 21:59:01


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/21 22:20:01


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Galas wrote:
AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.


AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.

It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/21 22:44:48


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Voss wrote:
 Galas wrote:
AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.


AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.

It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.
What, you don't want Lascannons shooting through six marines?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
I do hope this changes...

   
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Voss wrote:
 Galas wrote:
AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.


AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.

It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.


But... that doesnt changes anything for 40k? I mean. That lasscannon shot would kill a single miniature be it a 1 wound one, a 3 wound one or a 5 wound one. The thing of having more wounds is having more of a difference between elite units and chaff units. Single wounds units have the problem of a couple of bad saves sinking a ton of points for nothing.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
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 Galas wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Galas wrote:
AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.


AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.

It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.


But... that doesnt changes anything for 40k? I mean. That lasscannon shot would kill a single miniature be it a 1 wound one, a 3 wound one or a 5 wound one. The thing of having more wounds is having more of a difference between elite units and chaff units. Single wounds units have the problem of a couple of bad saves sinking a ton of points for nothing.

Correct. It changes nothing for 40k, because the damage mechanic is different in AoS. That is entirely the point.
So just claiming 'AoS has no problems with two wound elite infantry' fundamentally ignores that the two damage systems are not the same.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
Spoiler:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Voss wrote:


Seems unlikely that Chaos Marines would get 2W:

Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’

Reynolds, Josh. Manflayer (Fabius Bile: Warhammer 40,000 Book 3) . Kindle Edition.

Did GW turn CSM into the scrappy underdogs resisting an overwhelming force on purpose? Lines like these don't tend to come from the antagonists' side.


Well, its slightly more complicated than that.
Partly its Reynolds' last BL book. So it might be a parting nose tweak (this exchange is supremely disconnected from the actual story, which wrapped up a couple thousand years earlier in M37), but then again, GW would have a lot of approval power, and they let it pass.

The line is also delivered by a... formerly disgraced Sons of Horus Apothecary that is serving Abaddon solely out of desire not to be squished, as he's pretty well established as a coward. So he has an inherently unreliable PoV on the situation. He's conveying a request from Abaddon for a counter to Primaris, but the whole exchange is very meta ['Ezekyle wants something to counter them, doesn’t he? How predictable. They make oversized warriors, we make oversized warriors.’ He shook his head. ‘A galaxy of children, squabbling over their toys.’] It even raises weird questions about the depiction of Fabius himself in the brand new model.

Personally, I find the whole exchange amusing, but it really displays the roughness of the game/fluff divide. But if you take it straight, yes. Chaos are absolutely the underdogs.
That shows up in a lot of the BL chaos novels (certainly the Ahriman trilogy is another example, but all three Fabius books show him off as a fringer who has to bargain badly for other people's power, and then turn the situation around). They're under-supplied scavengers with enemies in and out of the Eye, just scraping by and that Imperium outside isn't really something they can affect. They endure the long, long years punctuated by their inner demons and personal enemies.

Yeah that's how the legions are often portrayed. It's how ADB portrayed the Night Lords in his trilogy. It's also how I like it. Csm should be like Kurt Russell's character in Soldier, old veterans going up against the superior new breed using their guile and experience. The legions are The Wild Bunch, the Imperium are the federales.

Insectum7 wrote:They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.

So what's the problem with Chosen and how would you address it?
   
 
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