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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Dudeface wrote:
Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.


You see one unit performing about 50% better than the other (with nearly equal points) as 'performing reasonably equally'? For equal points, Bladeguard have significantly higher melee output and are anywhere from 0-50% tougher, depending on the weapon hitting them.

Bladeguard beat equal points of Custodes, hands down. It's not even close. To make the Custodes seem good you're putting 35pt models against equal numbers of 49pt models. And we're not even taking into account the myriad Marine synergies that act as force multipliers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 17:01:02


 
   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.


You see one unit performing about 50% better than the other (with nearly equal points) as 'performing reasonably equally'? For equal points, Bladeguard have significantly higher melee output and are anywhere from 0-50% tougher, depending on the weapon hitting them.

Bladeguard beat equal points of Custodes, hands down. It's not even close. To make the Custodes seem good you're putting 35pt models against equal numbers of 49pt models. And we're not even taking into account the myriad Marine synergies that act as force multipliers.


6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.


If you mean this thread, the general conclusion is that there's not much reason to take regular Bikers anymore. Outriders are tougher, better in melee, don't have to worry about Blast or Morale. They only lose out in shooting and resilience to anti-tank weapons, but if your opponent is putting lascannons into 45pt models, you're already winning. It's not a hard decision; any biker-heavy White Scars army is going to prefer Outriders unless they're planning on shenanigans involving meltaguns.

Again, not Custodes-tier, but overperforming for the cost even against models within the same codex, let alone other codices.


Many SM lists are bringing few or none tanks, so offering a good target for AT weapons is objectively a drawback over normal bikers. By the way, outriders bleed points as fast as a double lascannon razorback to S8+ AT fire, so not exactly that bad of a target and bleed much faster to S6-7 weapons.

Also, outriders suffer more from Dd3 weapons.

All in all the outriders are a little better against light weapons, but suffer much more from other sources.

Now, if you make them ravenwing and get that nice 4++...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 17:41:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 17:46:37


 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.


Yeah no, it's why everyone is suddenly comparing them to fething Wraithguard and Custodes and grotesques and bullgryns and going "wtf". GW has decided regular-ass space marine honor guard now need to have 3 wounds for no reason, also lololol they all fit in the transports like normal its K guys.

If you want to transport 4 custodes you're buying a THREE HUNDRED POINT LAND RAIDER bare minimum. If you want to transport 6 bladeguard? Buy 'em a primaris rhino for 100pts!

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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They're not regular Honour Guard though, they're PRIMARIS Honour Guard.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





the_scotsman wrote:

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.



In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.


Why are you using the +1 to hit from the ancient in a straight comparison?

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.


Yeah no, it's why everyone is suddenly comparing them to fething Wraithguard and Custodes and grotesques and bullgryns and going "wtf". GW has decided regular-ass space marine honor guard now need to have 3 wounds for no reason, also lololol they all fit in the transports like normal its K guys.

If you want to transport 4 custodes you're buying a THREE HUNDRED POINT LAND RAIDER bare minimum. If you want to transport 6 bladeguard? Buy 'em a primaris rhino for 100pts!


that's not an argument against bladeguard, that's an argument that custodes have an obvious hole in their army list that could stand to be plugged

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.



In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.


Why are you using the +1 to hit from the ancient in a straight comparison?

Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically your judgment is off a one time thing instead of what would've happened in 90% of the other games?

No I was just saying it was amusing to me since I just played an actual game where the match up occurred. I am not judging the unit based on that one game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 20:29:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Blood Hawk wrote:
Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.


The only reason you don't see Victrix Guard much- or complaining about them- because they're locked to Ultramarines only, and their overperformance is skewed more towards durability than offensive output, which at least makes them less of a problem since they can be simply ignored to focus on bigger threats. But yeah, them having three wounds is silly.

I mean, let's compare them to Tyrant Guard, a unit with a very similar role. Tyrant Guard have 1 higher S and T, and an inch extra movement; those are their only advantages. Meanwhile Victrix Guard have WS2+, 1 more Attack (2 in the first round of combat), more consistently high AP (AP-3, vs AP-1 with AP-4 on 6s), and a 2+/3++ save, whereas Tyrant Guard are just 3+. Victrix Guard hit harder in combat, are dramatically harder to kill, and bodyguard just as well, yet for all of 8th Ed they were cheaper than Tyrant Guard.

If you want to convince us that a unit isn't OP, give some comparisons to counterparts in other factions. Marine players arguing that their units are balanced by comparing to similarly undercosted units within their own army got old real fast.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 20:55:39


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 catbarf wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.


The only reason you don't see Victrix Guard much- or complaining about them- because they're locked to Ultramarines only, and their overperformance is skewed more towards durability than offensive output, which at least makes them less of a problem since they can be simply ignored to focus on bigger threats. But yeah, them having three wounds is silly.

I mean, let's compare them to Tyrant Guard, a unit with a very similar role. Tyrant Guard have 1 higher S and T, and an inch extra movement; those are their only advantages. Meanwhile Victrix Guard have WS2+, 1 more Attack (2 in the first round of combat), more consistently high AP (AP-3, vs AP-1 with AP-4 on 6s), and a 2+/3++ save, whereas Tyrant Guard are just 3+. Victrix Guard hit harder in combat, are dramatically harder to kill, and bodyguard just as well, yet for all of 8th Ed they were cheaper than Tyrant Guard.


Oh godd*** it. I never looked at them closely so I never noticed that. That's really aggravating.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 catbarf wrote:

If you want to convince us that a unit isn't OP, give some comparisons to counterparts in other factions. Marine players arguing that their units are balanced by comparing to similarly undercosted units within their own army got old real fast.

Nah I am good. Like I said earlier I couldn't care less about hypothetical warhammer. I largely consider it a waste of time.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Honestly I probably will play one or two games against Marines to have fun with friends who play them, but if they stay as they are in their future codex and the others don't meet the same standards of creep I'm just not playing against Marines again. Had a 2v2 game once, AdMech + Chaos SM vs Ultramarines + Imperial Fists and it was the most unfun game I've ever played. Shoot the Aggressors/ ? They'll shoot back at you while dying with the Ancient behind. Try a charge ? Eat 500 bolter rounds to the face. Keep your distance ? LOL eat it just the same. We killed like 6 models and got almost tabled turn two. We're expected to have fun against that ?

Rules writer don't even know what's happening outside the SM codex when they're writing it, it doesn't surprise me they'd have units performing way better than similar units in other armies for way less.

40K: Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts

My Stygies VIII army in pictures !
My Eversor and Culexus assassins !

 Rolsheen wrote:
Ah yes the mythical world of Cyraxus
Where GW hold an annual bonfire festival to burn the hopes and dreams of all Ad Mech players
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On bikers versus outriders, it sort of depends what GW do with the biker datasheet. As said, if you can load out with storm bolter on sergeant and chainswords then its probably superior.

If however they were to go "bikers have twin boltguns and bolt pistols, because that's what they are modelled with, clear off to legends you converting or ancient model hoarding scum" then I think it swings towards the outriders quite quickly. (Although I guess it depends on how you value 2/5ths a biker).

On the bladeguard, I've kind of just been thinking "eh, slow assault unit, I'll just avoid it". Which I guess is still going to be my hope - but tbh, impulsored up the board turn one, you have yet another unit you can't afford to ignore.

The seemingly endless march of the Eldar+5 models is sad.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Tyel wrote:
On bikers versus outriders, it sort of depends what GW do with the biker datasheet. As said, if you can load out with storm bolter on sergeant and chainswords then its probably superior.

If however they were to go "bikers have twin boltguns and bolt pistols, because that's what they are modelled with, clear off to legends you converting or ancient model hoarding scum" then I think it swings towards the outriders quite quickly. (Although I guess it depends on how you value 2/5ths a biker).

On the bladeguard, I've kind of just been thinking "eh, slow assault unit, I'll just avoid it". Which I guess is still going to be my hope - but tbh, impulsored up the board turn one, you have yet another unit you can't afford to ignore.

The seemingly endless march of the Eldar+5 models is sad.


I keep thinking I remember how GW said all marine chainswords would become astartes chainswords, which would close the gap even more. I think it was the stream, but I could be terribly mistaken there. We still have unresolved storm shields as well.

   
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Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

 catbarf wrote:


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.


Your math if I've figured it right assumes that Bladeguard have a 3++.

They don't. They have a 4++.

Read the FAQ:
Page 18 – Bladeguard Veteran Squad, Other Wargear, storm
shield, Abilities
Change this to read:
‘The bearer has a 4+ invulnerable save. In addition, add 1 to
armour saving throws made for the bearer.’

So how does a three man squad of Bladeguard fare against two Custodian Guard?

They do okay. On average on the charge they do 4.33 damage (not wounds), the Custodian Guard do 4.44.

But that's against spear guard. Against sword and shield guard, who do in fact have a 3++, the two shield guard get an average of 3.33 wounds. Generally about a thirty-ish percent decrease in lethality due to no longer getting the extra attacks from the misericordia, but still will on average do more than enough damage to kill one Bladeguard.

The Bladeguard proceed to do 2.89. So on average not actually killing a Custodian, if just barely.

Either way the Custodians look somewhat stronger, and that's not even factoring in their superior shooting and ability to weather volume small arms fire.
   
Made in us
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Annandale, VA

No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/30 03:47:50


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

 catbarf wrote:
No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.


Ah so you're just saying that Bladeguard are more points efficient wound-wise. All right, now that I understand your point better I think I can agree.

But like, who cares? Two Custodian guard also has far superior shooting to three Bladeguard.

Firing at 18" range, the max range of Bladeguard pistols, two Custodian guard on average will usually get one wound on a Primaris and proceed to kill one.

Bladeguard have a 50% chance to do a whopping 1 damage to them.

In 12" or less, rapid fire range, it's not even close and their chance of success doubles to a near certainty.

At 24" range, maximum Custodian range, the Bladeguard can't shoot at all.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.
   
Made in us
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You'd have a point if Custodes shooting was even worth anything. Them shooting better than Bladeguard isn't really helping your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quite honestly I just hope they can get more than 3 models in a squad and we get a better delivery system. The rules are ripe for Conversion opportunities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 05:15:06


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.
¨

And what if you compare to other armies stuff? You know comparing new marine unit to units from broken codex doesn't really tell much about is it OP unit or not...

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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Spoiler:
Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



I wanted to come back to this and address it directly.

The space marines have :

12 melta
11 to 16 30" S4 AP1
5 to 10 24" S4 AP0
21 8" S4 AP0

The only things capable of taking on terminator armor are the Eradicators, but when the Custodes have units that M14 and FLY how exactly do you get the jump on them?

Also I'm not really sold on the idea of spending ~120 points on a Vertus Praetor for the -1 in such a small game where everything is likely too spread out.

In any case I imagine the Custodes have a real good shot at winning. VotBG (reroll hit, wound, and save) on the SC and +2W for Captain Commander. A 3++ and reroll charges for the relic and then either 5+++ or half damage for the trait. I mean...good luck killing him.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Void__Dragon wrote:

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.


(This isn't to you directly, but more to the group)

If BG go up by 5 and marines spend 30 extra points on them are they fixed?
If they go up by 10 and spend 60 extra points...are they fixed?

What's the line, here?

Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?

At what cost would you NOT take them?

45 points means 395 total for the above 6+ Impulsor. Is it worth it to spend 20% of your army on a single element that sits on an objective? What happens when you're playing a mission with 6 objectives?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/30 06:03:23


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Arguments about non troops costing to many points to sit on objectives when you give them a transport is straight up arguing in bad faith.

Though frankly that those are the lengths people are going to to defend marine's as not over powered/undercosted shows just how rediculous the are compaired to other factions.

Even adding 10 points to each model (45ppm) they don't compair unfairly to xeno options, same with outriders. Eradicators are just so broken they need 20 points and likely more added to balance against xeno options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 06:23:49


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






The thing that still bugs me to no end is:

Firepike: Ancient Eldar high tech artifact, wielded as an art form by millennia-old masters of the form. 18" Meltagun

Eradicator Melta Rifle: 24" Meltagun
And Eradicators all apparently have the Eldar Exarch skill of Fast Shot.

sigh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 06:26:26


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos






Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?

At what cost would you NOT take them?

45 points means 395 total for the above 6+ Impulsor. Is it worth it to spend 20% of your army on a single element that sits on an objective? What happens when you're playing a mission with 6 objectives?


You see, for some factions that is required baseline to get a comp unit, so either pay up or complain is quite a valid argument.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in nl
Brainy Zoanthrope




BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?


Because it grates when what is supposed to be the premier melta unit in the game in a faction (supposed to be) known for its hyperspecialized units is absolutely eclipsed by a unit in what is supposed to be an army of generalists (compared to eldar at least). You do have a point about fire dragons being ineffective even without comparing them to eradicators. In fact, most aspect warriors have been for quite some time now. This is just the latest slap in the face for those who want to field aspects, and that cheek is getting awfully sore. But agreed, this is more of a fluff/lore disconnect gripe.

I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

*
Spoiler:
Kind of disingenuous to add the full points for chapter master and lieutenant to these three three-strong units in this comparison as you'd be insane not to at least protect your characters with a tough unit, but oh well
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





you can quite comfortably compare 3 eradicators to a obliterator, only i can guarantee you that the obliterator without any buffs applied bites the dust in effectiveness and capability,
and't is only 5 pts cheaper aswell

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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