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2020/08/13 17:01:52
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Where at the start the enemys have 10hp and you do 3 dmg and by the end they have 100hp and you do 30, especially if as it appears weapons get a matching bump
And as ever the drip feed / fish on the line / jam tomorrow dogma isnt going to help, just drop all the Codexs and link new toys to the next version of PA
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/08/13 17:02:51
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Sumilidon wrote: I hate the idea but only because they are doin it staggered. Buffing core stats will make power creep so much more eggagerated. If you are going to play with core stats, amend them all at the same time.
This presumes other factions will get an increase in wounds. Maybe aspects and a small handful of others, but it isn't going to be widespread.
2020/08/13 17:03:12
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Insectum7 wrote: I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.
I think that is gak.
why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...
What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.
Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.
I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.
Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).
2020/08/13 17:04:19
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
They explicitly said Xenos weapons are getting made more deadly too, and Xenos stats are being adjusted, but in both cases not until their codexes (unless it's something like power swords that happen to be cross faction).
If you're going to fundamentally inflate stats, the start of an edition is the time to do it. Doing it book by book is mental.
2020/08/13 17:05:08
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Insectum7 wrote: I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.
I think that is gak.
why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...
What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.
Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.
You're complaining about Immortals being buffed back to T5 here. It's not being degraded, it's getting buffed - just in a different way than Marines.
2020/08/13 17:06:08
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
I am ok with it as long as other armys like custodes get more wounds as well. Custodes become less and less good compared to marines. An assault Terminator with TH and SS will have a 1+ and 4++ save or 2+ and 3++ 3 wounds and 4dmg on the thunder hammer. so a custodes Guardian will have only 2 stats which are better: 2+ to hit and T5. The weapons are not even close the marine has 4dmg instead of d3 and S8 instead of S6
2020/08/13 17:06:44
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
1) I'm going to assume that Primaris get an additional would, taking them to 3, thereby making them still superior to the old marines
2) They're going to tweak all the weapon profiles (i.e. making them do more damage - be prepared to see more D2 weapons) - thereby making 2W troops die just as easily
3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
2020/08/13 17:08:34
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
yukishiro1 wrote: They explicitly said Xenos weapons are getting made more deadly too, and Xenos stats are being adjusted, but in both cases not until their codexes (unless it's something like power swords that happen to be cross faction).
If you're going to fundamentally inflate stats, the start of an edition is the time to do it. Doing it book by book is mental.
Yes, that still does not mean - on it's own - that your Xenos' will be worse off right now.
If they overshoot weapon price adjustments for Marines, for example turning all the 5 pts melee weapons to 20pts upgrades, you're clearly getting the better deal by NOT getting updated.
It does not matter how much Strength or Damage a weapon has - if you're charged too much for that, it's not a good weapon. Even if it's S16 3D4 Damage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:09:32
2020/08/13 17:09:33
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.
I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.
Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).
They didn't say that weapons are getting rebalanced points costs; that's specifically in the section about stat increases. In fact, reading between the lines, it seems pretty clear the current points values are the 9th points values. Why did multimeltas go UP in points in 9th while lascannons went down? It makes no sense..unless they get 2 shots and extra damage at close range. Why did power swords go up to 5 points? Makes no sense...unless they got +1 STR.
Most importantly of all, why did heavy bolters go up massively in cost? This makes absolutely, completely no sense at all...unless they're going to D2.
Weapon inflation has already been baked into points costs, at least for imperium weapons.
But it doesn't really matter either way, even if the weapon damage inflation is pointed out, it still results in a game where one faction suddenly becomes massively more powerful than other factions. The fact that other factions may be able to compensate by throwing more bodies at it doesn't change that dynamic. For months and months, Space Marine supermen will be fighting with new stat profiles and new weapon deadliness while everyone else will, at best, be compensating by bringing more gimped bodies while they wait for their own super saiyan moding. That's just bizarre, especially when they just had a new edition launch, the ideal, obviously time to do a fundamental stat rebalance if that's what they wanted to do.
There is simply no world in which doing a fundamental change of game stats codex-by-codex instead of all at once at the start of an edition makes any sort of sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:11:26
2020/08/13 17:10:04
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Insectum7 wrote: I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.
I think that is gak.
why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...
What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.
Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.
You're complaining about Immortals being buffed back to T5 here. It's not being degraded, it's getting buffed - just in a different way than Marines.
No sir. I am complaining about how the Stats of Immortals have eroded over time in comparison to marines. Quite different.
Immortals, used to be tougher than Marines. Same wounds, higher T value. Then they went to same T value, same wounds. Now they are at higher T value, fewer wounds. Their resiliency as a unit has degraded over time in comparison to marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:12:29
I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.
Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.
2020/08/13 17:16:00
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Gadzilla666 wrote: I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.
Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.
This. Looks Like I may cut my Necrons early and finally invest in the CSM I've been fence-sitting on
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
2020/08/13 17:18:15
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Insectum7 wrote: I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.
I think that is gak.
why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...
What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.
.
The 2 are fairly even though. Immortal wounds on 3+, marine on 5+. Same cost. You lose out vs s3.
You win against d2 weapon that will be more and more common. And s8 weapons
Imo Immortals should have a definite advantage against Marines in a firefight, not be roughly equal. Plasma gets no benefit to overcharge against Immortals, while plasma will be forced to overcharge against Marines.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.
Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.
I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.
2020/08/13 17:19:48
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.
I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.
Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).
They didn't say that weapons are getting rebalanced points costs; that's specifically in the section about stat increases. In fact, reading between the lines, it seems pretty clear the current points values are the 9th points values. Why did multimeltas go UP in points in 9th while lascannons went down? It makes no sense..unless they get 2 shots and extra damage at close range. Why did power swords go up to 5 points? Makes no sense...unless they got +1 STR.
Most importantly of all, why did heavy bolters go up massively in cost? This makes absolutely, completely no sense at all...unless they're going to D2.
Weapon inflation has already been baked into points costs, at least for imperium weapons.
But it doesn't really matter either way, even if the weapon damage inflation is pointed out, it still results in a game where one faction suddenly becomes massively more powerful than other factions. The fact that other factions may be able to compensate by throwing more bodies at it doesn't change that dynamic. For months and months, Space Marine supermen will be fighting with new stat profiles and new weapon deadliness while everyone else will, at best, be compensating by bringing more gimped bodies while they wait for their own super saiyan moding. That's just bizarre, especially when they just had a new edition launch, the ideal, obviously time to do a fundamental stat rebalance if that's what they wanted to do.
There is simply no world in which doing a fundamental change of game stats codex-by-codex instead of all at once at the start of an edition makes any sort of sense.
- We do not know if weapon prices will be adjusted, but looking at this from any reasonable point of view results in coming to the conclusion that a 2 shot MM is not fine at 25 points. It needs to go up when it's going to be twice as powerful. It's literally a Twin Multimelta then, so pricing will be have to be adjusted. A MM right now for 25pts is not utter garbage, I'd know, being a Salamanders player. It's just slightly overpriced, not "twice as expensive as it should be".
- You're confusing "powerful faction" with "powerful units". Knights have very powerful units, but that does not automatically make them a powerful faction. Same goes for any unit. What makes a faction powerful is when they're more points efficient than other armies (to keep it simple).
- Editions are not usually used to redo every single datasheet, 8th edition was very much an exception.
2020/08/13 17:19:59
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
I will only use primaris models, but this makes it not-weird to use primaris-based conversions as old marines. Old marine veterans can be full primaris and perhaps non-veteran old marines can be some sort of primaris noobs who have not yet learned their second attack? My head is buzzing with ideas how I can model this. Very exiting.
Also a huge deal for Chaos. I will finally make CSM force I have wanted for years. At last they're not utter wimps.
Now I think that certain xenos units should have gotten a power boost as well. Immortals for example should have gotten a second wound too, and I can certainly understand that people are miffed about that.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.
Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.
I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.
The PA books are supposed to stay around, so are the SM supplements - so many many stratagems will probably stay.
2020/08/13 17:21:13
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Vaktathi wrote: Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.
This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?
Really strange decision
2020/08/13 17:22:30
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
And once again thanks to the artificially stretched out release schedule some factions are just more equal then others .
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/08/13 17:22:52
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Gadzilla666 wrote: I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.
Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.
I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.
Dang it Daed, can't you let a salty old Veteran of The Long War be happy for a little while?
2020/08/13 17:23:42
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
I'm not confusing anything with anything. Please read what I actually wrote. I specifically addressed the second point. The fact that the inflation of marine stats may not directly result in marines becoming even more overpowered than they already are on an army-wide level doesn't change anything about how stupid it is to have a game where one faction suddenly gets massively more powerful on a per-model basis, then the same thing happens to the next faction 6 months down the road, while in the meantime they are total gimps in comparison while they wait for their own codex.
Suppose they suddenly decided to triple all the stat values for space marines, and increased points accordingly, then announced they'd do the same for every faction, but codex-by-codex over a period of years. Would it still be "balanced?" Maybe, but surely you can see how stupid an approach that would be, rather than simply doing it all at once?
Most editions didn't have fundamental rebalances of stats. They just announced that they intend to increase the stats of all weapons and all models across the whole game to make weapons deadlier and models more powerful. If you're going to do that, it should be at the start of an edition, not faction by faction over a period of years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:25:25
2020/08/13 17:24:09
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Vaktathi wrote: Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.
This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?
Really strange decision
Basically the way 8th worked between index and codex releases. I maintain a working list to play the game because its fun to do so, but holding off on designing anything until the codex gives me a longer lasting set of rules to work with.
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