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I don't see Hordes suffering in this edition, even if they may have been weakened some. Overall, they took some hits but also took some buffs from mission structure and rule changes. Like the Morale changes provide a pretty large buff to large units, limiting runners to 1+ (1/6th or 1/3rd) and having a roll of 1 auto pass. It's much less leadership attrition than hordes suffered from before.

Blast consequences are also massively overestimated. Many of these weapons are anti-tank/elite and are inefficient choices against hordes anyway. Most of them are d3 or d6 shots, where the expected average additional kill is only a model or two.
Yeah, there are a couple stand out weapon systems that are extremely goods vs. 10+ model units but the overall impact is not nearly the death sentence some folks want to make it out as.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/19 06:20:34


 
   
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Astonished of Heck

Did they ever give the IG/Astra Militarum back their Platoons, or are they still stuck with only fielding their cheap squads as a Squad per slot?

It seems to me that IG have a great way of countering this horde nerf by the simple venue of being the SMU army.

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Squad per slot. If you want more Guardsmen you either need to stretch detachments or run Conscripts (50 model squads).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
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 argonak wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
So one thing that has became apparent in 9th edition is that horde armies are on in the receiving end of a very large stick. For this statement I refer to 3 key rules and I use the scenario of units at least 11 models in size:

New coherency rules Means each model must remain within 2 inches of another. That’s actually quite hard to do when you start removing models unless you run your unit in a regimented fashion.

The formula used to determine points increases disproportionately impacted horde units where even a 1 point change could represent a 20% increase.

The implementation of blast weapon rules (which GW apparently list 150 weapon profiles as blast) meaning weapons with random shots pretty much get the maximum in the majority of scenarios.

The improvement to weapons such as flamers by increasing their range.

To counter this, also look at The other changes recently such as to terrain, the boosts in wounds to marines, the range increase of bolters etc - of of which are of major benefit to MEQ type units while to the determined of horde units. That’s not including the other changes such as hateful assault to increase melee potential.

Nobody can argue that horde armies were OP, fact was that at the end of 8th, the meta was dominated by Marines who don’t have that playstyle (every other type, just not that type). So why such a heavy handed and blatant nerf to horde armies?


I suspect this is being done for competitive play. The amount of crying that goes on at high level events about having to lug around 100+ models all day has necessitated the response of making all armies smaller. I am finding it painful to craft an army in 9th with my primaris marines because points as they are, I just can't fit in everything I want.


But shouldn't "not being able to have everything we want" be a sign of good game design? Force us to make choicecs?


Yes. But that's not exactly what I mean. I'm finding it hard to fill all of the roles that you would want in a well rounded SM army. I don't mind reducing, but it really does feel like some of these units are just way too expensive, unless I start playing 2500pt games..
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well, 8th Ed gave a bit of a boost to Horde units. With templates gone, they could freely bunch up without fear of Pie Plate Punishment or Flame Template Flagellation.

They could also be strung right out at maximum coherency for oddities of board control.

Blast and updated coherency rules mitigate those of course.

Now, have they swung the pendulum too far? I dunno, haven’t played 9th yet, and nobody has a suitably updated codex.

We can also, possibly, consider the origin of Hordes as know them in 40k. Essentially, that’s 3rd, when the restrictive FoC was first introduced. 2 HQ, 3 Elites, 6 Troops, 3 Fast Attack and 3 Heavy Support, max.

Again, jump to 8th and 9th, the greater variety of FoC templates means we can still flood the board with models, but don’t have to do so in mega blob units. So there’s at least some argument that we don’t need to Horde in the way 3rd - 7th demanded.

Please note I am not drawing conclusions here. I’ve not properly played for years, so limiting my contribution to thoughts for others who are better informed to discuss.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
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I think the issue is that the people who make 40K are 40K geeks and they enjoy playing the game, so when they find horse armies are hard to defeat they get over excited and make rules to obliterate hordes. Same when they look at buffing SM, they get over excited and build this army of super soldiers.

They should employ people who don’t like playing 40K to test the game. You need to be totally unbiased when testing and feeding back and if your loving that your flamers can reach further or you old marines need to be shot twice to die then maybe you not going to report a fault.

People who proof read books read them backwards, this is my 40K version of that.

Of course I don’t know anyone at GW or anything about their testing process. But if they haven’t recruited anyone who is trained in progressive detailed analytical repetitive testing then I expect they aren’t doing it right.

I am trained in and have done software testing in the past. Playing with new software sounds like fun but that’s not testing. It’s boooooooooooring!
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Unpopular take - blast is having a fairly negligible impact on hordes. Certain models are potentially a concern, but by and large the result is kind of meh. An awful lot of *blast* weapons do not want to be shooting hordes and they are inefficient no matter if they get maximum number of shots. (If they have nothing else to shoot at they may as well but still.)

Coherency is something you have to get used to, and not being able to string all across the map is a nerf - but most people didn't abuse it to the maximum extent anyway, and its not that much of a problem once you get used to it. (I think its a bit stupid - and could effect tournaments, but right now opponents are reasonably forgiving if you accidentally pull the wrong model, so its not that much of an issue.)

Which really just leaves the CA20 points changes. And tbh, I think that was a rush job by someone who didn't really care about any consequences. You can go for some post-hoc justifications (i.e. if grots were 3 points you'd stick 90 in your backfield every game to hug objectives and guarantee your primary unless they put in reasonable effort clearing them off...) but I think its more likely just a screw up rather than some great unifying vision of the game. A grot being 5 points doesn't mean anything more than a kabalite being 9 points. Its just a mistake that may or may not ever be fixed.
   
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Also, something that just popped into my head and has not been touched at all:

Horde units are GREAT for doing mission actions. Their offensive output is usually low-to-none, anyways, so not only can they control large amounts of area... but they can score secondaries with little impact on their output. Not a small thing in the current edition.
   
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Wyverns, Mortars, Airfrag projectors, Aeldari Missile Launchers, normal ass frag grenades, Fragstorm Aggressors, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc

Plenty of blast weapons that hit hordes. People aren’t filling their anti-infantry slots with LRBT, blast on those weapons is just an added bonus for the few times it might be relevant.
   
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Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the Tournamenthammer edition. Tournament players hate hordes.

No this is the narrative edition. Narrative players hate balance so we cannot have balance. Thanks knife-ear podcast!



And these two quotes together is the definition of why you can't please everyone


(For the record, I love hordes and still wish they didn't kneecap them so hard, but hey - some units are both horde AND stupid durable, and those truly are a slog. Even I understand that half the fun of a horde army is seeing them all go pop.)

 Galef wrote:
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In my experience the hordes that have not been hit by bonkers points nerfs are performing just fine. Ork boyz, Plaguebearers and other lesser daemons, Tzaangors, GSC Acolytes, Guard infantry squads, etc.

Actions, the new primaries, coupled with new morale is the big thing that makes them better. The strength of a horde unit has always been getting your opponent to have to target them rather than your more expensive stuff, and how well they can survive and continue to help you win the game. It's much much harder to actually WIPE OUT a large unit now, because morale is not a reliable way to do it unless they've got literally a single model left on the board.

The guy in my area playing daemon-heavy nurgle soup is absolutely undefeated in the new edition. he uses ~750 points of deathguard for his killing of units that are a big threat to his units and absolutely squats on the board with a huge sea of plaguebearers and nurglings and he is just impossible to shift. He brings just enough firepower to the table to get rid of 1-2 dedicated anti-infantry vehicles like wyverns, TFCs, whatever, and the rest he just kind of ignores or ties up.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


This is such a silly argument tho. “Most blasts were on anti elite/tank weapons!” . Sure, so the blast rule has very little impact on those circumstances. It doesn’t change the fact that there is still plenty of very relevant blast weapons that want to shoot infantry.

I personally think hordes are fine, at least from what I’ve seen so far. But it’s just misinformation to pretend like blasts don’t matter, in fact it’s probably the most relevant change for hordes that is necessary to stop them completely running away with the meta.
   
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Blast weapons are also not necessarily anti-infantry as their primary weapon. Blast weapons just represent weapons that are particularly devastating to anything they impact. How a LRBT shell targeting a large swarm of tyranids can only muster 2 hits just kind of defies reason.

There are games and lists that will not present a proper target to these iron behemoths of the battlefield... blast rule gives them a secondary role to fill so as to not be totally nullified at list creation. It may not be OPTIMAL to fire a LRBT at a swarm of Necron Warriors, but at least you can take comfort in that it is not a totally pointless endeavor as well.

Horde units have so many advantages, and these advantages usually work to the opposition of vehicles and elites. I know vehicles were the big focal point of the edition change, and I don't think vehicles would be nearly as potent if you just tap them with weak, disposable infantry for the entire game. While scoring primary objectives from ObSec and secondaries with mission actions. Cheap infantry is REALLY good in this edition, and that is finally being captured in their costs.
   
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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


This is such a silly argument tho. “Most blasts were on anti elite/tank weapons!” . Sure, so the blast rule has very little impact on those circumstances. It doesn’t change the fact that there is still plenty of very relevant blast weapons that want to shoot infantry.

I personally think hordes are fine, at least from what I’ve seen so far. But it’s just misinformation to pretend like blasts don’t matter, in fact it’s probably the most relevant change for hordes that is necessary to stop them completely running away with the meta.


I can only think of Wyverns honestly. Not much else which is good at taking down hordes. Maybe mortars.

Everything else can shoot at hordes if it does lack a better target, but they surely don't like it.

I'm not saying that the blast rule doesn't affect hordes, obviously it does, but I wouldn't avoid 30 model units just because of that, while you should really think twice before deploying an elite unit bigger than 5 models.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


This is such a silly argument tho. “Most blasts were on anti elite/tank weapons!” . Sure, so the blast rule has very little impact on those circumstances. It doesn’t change the fact that there is still plenty of very relevant blast weapons that want to shoot infantry.

I personally think hordes are fine, at least from what I’ve seen so far. But it’s just misinformation to pretend like blasts don’t matter, in fact it’s probably the most relevant change for hordes that is necessary to stop them completely running away with the meta.


I can only think of Wyverns honestly. Not much else which is good at taking down hordes. Maybe mortars.

Everything else can shoot at hordes if it does lack a better target, but they surely don't like it.

I'm not saying that the blast rule doesn't affect hordes, obviously it does, but I wouldn't avoid 30 model units just because of that, while you should really think twice before deploying an elite unit bigger than 5 models.


The one example that stands out to me are Plague Spitters. Lets use an example of 20 Termagants. A Bloat Drone with twin Plague Spitters is auto hitting with 12 shots, killing on 2s so statistically, 10 should die.
   
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Sumilidon wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


This is such a silly argument tho. “Most blasts were on anti elite/tank weapons!” . Sure, so the blast rule has very little impact on those circumstances. It doesn’t change the fact that there is still plenty of very relevant blast weapons that want to shoot infantry.

I personally think hordes are fine, at least from what I’ve seen so far. But it’s just misinformation to pretend like blasts don’t matter, in fact it’s probably the most relevant change for hordes that is necessary to stop them completely running away with the meta.


I can only think of Wyverns honestly. Not much else which is good at taking down hordes. Maybe mortars.

Everything else can shoot at hordes if it does lack a better target, but they surely don't like it.

I'm not saying that the blast rule doesn't affect hordes, obviously it does, but I wouldn't avoid 30 model units just because of that, while you should really think twice before deploying an elite unit bigger than 5 models.


The one example that stands out to me are Plague Spitters. Lets use an example of 20 Termagants. A Bloat Drone with twin Plague Spitters is auto hitting with 12 shots, killing on 2s so statistically, 10 should die.
Aren't they Plague Weapons, rerolling Wound Rolls of 1?

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Blast weapons with a firing mode that is S 0-6 AP- 0-1 D1 (excluding haywire weapons and psyk-out grenades): Accelerated photon grenades, aeldari missile launcher, airbursting fragmentation projector, astartes grenade launcher, barbed strangler, bellicatus missile array, bile spurt, Blackstar rocket launcher, blasting charge, blastmaster, blight grenade, bolt sniper rifle, Brogg's Buzzbomb, burna bottles, Centurion missile launcher, cerberus launcher, choking spores, cluster rocket system, concussion grenade, cyclone missile launcher, Deathwatch frag cannon, deathwind launcher, grenade harness, grenade launcher, grenadier guantlet, grotzooka, havoc launcher, heavy squig launcher, high-cappacitance railgun, kannon, lobba, missile launcher, mortar, multiple rocket pod, phantasm grenade launcher, photon grenade, railgun, Ravenwing grenade launcher, razorwing missiles, shadow weaver, shock grenade, shredder, skorcha missiles, squig launcha, stikkbomb, stikkbomb chukka, stikkbomb flinga, stikksquig, stormfrag auto-launcher, taurox missile launcher, twin Aeldari missile launcher, typhoon missile launcher, whirlwind castellan launcher, wrist-mounted grenade launcher, wyvern quad stormshard mortar.

Other Blast weapons: Archeotech grenade, aquila macro-cannon, artillery barrage, balistus grenade launcher, Balethorn Cannon, baneblade cannon, battle cannon, belleros energy cannon, bio-plasma, bio-plasmic scream, bubblechukka, cache of demolition charges, Cawl's Wrath, D-cannon, Da Boomer, Da Souped-up Shokka, dark scythe, death ray, deathstrike missile, deffkannon, demolisher cannon, demolition charge, disruptor missile launcher, doomsday cannon, doomweaver, earthshaker cannon, ectoplasma cannon, eradication beamer, eradication ray, eradicator nova cannon, executioner plasma cannon, exorcist conflagration rockets, exorcist missile launcher, frag bomb, frag cannon, frag grenade, fragstorm grenade launcher, Fury of Mars, fusion collider, Hammer of Sunderance, haywire cannon, heavy mining laser, heavy mortar, heavy plasma cannon, heavy venom cannon, Helbrute plasma cannon, helfrost cannon, helfrost destructor, hellhammer cannon, hyper blight grenade, Icarus rocket pod, ichor cannon, ion accelerator, ion cannon, ion rifle, ironstorm missile pod, killkannon, kuston mega-kannon, kustom mega-zappa, laser destructor, macro plasma incinerator, magma cannon, melta cannon, Miasma Cannon, neutron laser, phlegm bombardment, phosphex bombs, plagueburst mortar, plasma culverin, plasma decimater, plasma exterminator, plasma grenade, plasma obliterator, plasma storm battery, prism cannon, prismatic cannon, psyk-out grenade, pulse driver cannon, quake cannon, rapid-fire battle cannon, redemption missile silo, rift cannon, rokkit kannon, salvo launcher, shokk attack gun, shockcannon, skull cannon, skullhurler, smasha gun, solar atomiser, spirit vortex, star bolas, storm eagle rocket, stormsword siege cannon, stranglethorn cannon, suncannon, supa-rokkit, Supernova Launcher, tankbusta bomb, taurox battle cannon, tempest launcher, thermal cannon, The Thunder of Voltaris, transdimensional beamer, tremor cannon, twin heavy plasma cannon, twin helfrost cannon, twin siegebreaker cannon, venom cannon, voidraven missiles, volcano lance, vortex missile battery, Wazbom mega-kannon, whirlwind vengeance launcher.

Necron Warriors also aren't a swarm and they are very much hurt by high-AP weapons like a battle cannon and they pay a larger premium for their 5++ than Orks do, but once again the talking heads are saying Necron Warriors will be great this edition, I won't hold my breath.
   
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Flamer weapons are not blast?
Is this generally true?

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 wuestenfux wrote:
Flamer weapons are not blast?
Is this generally true?


Yes, pretty much everything that autohits is not blast.

(I believe it is that way so vehicles can use them in melee)

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


This is such a silly argument tho. “Most blasts were on anti elite/tank weapons!” . Sure, so the blast rule has very little impact on those circumstances. It doesn’t change the fact that there is still plenty of very relevant blast weapons that want to shoot infantry.

I personally think hordes are fine, at least from what I’ve seen so far. But it’s just misinformation to pretend like blasts don’t matter, in fact it’s probably the most relevant change for hordes that is necessary to stop them completely running away with the meta.


I can only think of Wyverns honestly. Not much else which is good at taking down hordes. Maybe mortars.

Everything else can shoot at hordes if it does lack a better target, but they surely don't like it.

I'm not saying that the blast rule doesn't affect hordes, obviously it does, but I wouldn't avoid 30 model units just because of that, while you should really think twice before deploying an elite unit bigger than 5 models.


The one example that stands out to me are Plague Spitters. Lets use an example of 20 Termagants. A Bloat Drone with twin Plague Spitters is auto hitting with 12 shots, killing on 2s so statistically, 10 should die.
Aren't they Plague Weapons, rerolling Wound Rolls of 1?


Yes, I completely forgot that so statistically, 12 dead
   
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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Wyverns, Mortars, Airfrag projectors, Aeldari Missile Launchers, normal ass frag grenades, Fragstorm Aggressors, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc

Plenty of blast weapons that hit hordes. People aren’t filling their anti-infantry slots with LRBT, blast on those weapons is just an added bonus for the few times it might be relevant.


Soooo..mostly Imperial and Chaos stuff...got it

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Edit: Ignore most of what I wrote here. I got the 11+ rule wrong. 6+ is still quite weak though.

Quite a few of the blast weapons also dont get much out of the blast rule since its per weapon and not per die. So a 4d6 gun only really get any benefit out of the blast rule in the rare cases it rolls 5 or less on all 4 dice against an 11+ unit. Against a 6 man unit it does nothing. Same with a. 4d3 Gun against 6 man units. It actually does nothing even if you were to roll only ones.

This really prevents a lot of the artillery from being that good against hordes. Mostly things like missile launchers with a single D6 that now can actually fire the frag round against units and not just use krak against everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 19:55:27


 
   
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Klickor wrote:
Quite a few of the blast weapons also dont get much out of the blast rule since its per weapon and not per die. So a 4d6 gun only really get any benefit out of the blast rule in the rare cases it rolls 5 or less on all 4 dice against an 11+ unit. Against a 6 man unit it does nothing. Same with a. 4d3 Gun against 6 man units. It actually does nothing even if you were to roll only ones.

This really prevents a lot of the artillery from being that good against hordes. Mostly things like missile launchers with a single D6 that now can actually fire the frag round against units and not just use krak against everything.

I think you need to read the rules for blast again. A 4d6 gun gets 24 shots against a unit with 11+ models, a 4d3 gun gets no benefit against 6+ models, but it fires 12 shots against 11+ models.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Klickor wrote:
Quite a few of the blast weapons also dont get much out of the blast rule since its per weapon and not per die. So a 4d6 gun only really get any benefit out of the blast rule in the rare cases it rolls 5 or less on all 4 dice against an 11+ unit. Against a 6 man unit it does nothing. Same with a. 4d3 Gun against 6 man units. It actually does nothing even if you were to roll only ones.

This really prevents a lot of the artillery from being that good against hordes. Mostly things like missile launchers with a single D6 that now can actually fire the frag round against units and not just use krak against everything.

I think you need to read the rules for blast again. A 4d6 gun gets 24 shots against a unit with 11+ models, a 4d3 gun gets no benefit against 6+ models, but it fires 12 shots against 11+ models.


Oh you are right. I got the 11+ one wrong since I just glanced over that one since it doesnt affect me in any way and thought it was worded the same as the 6+ one. I was wrong. If BA gets thunderfire cannons in october it might become relevant. As it is now I dont have any 11+ units or any blast weapons anyway.

   
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Spoletta wrote:
Most of the anti hordes blasts have been severely increased in cost. The few good reamining ones (mostly the AM ones) rapresent only a small percentage of the blast weapons. The vast majority of it prefer targeting elite targets.


Incorrect.
Unless there's some rule in play concerning target priority, my troops weapons don't get a preference. I decide what to shoot at & with what. And if I deem that to be a hoard? Then I'll hit it with enough of whatever's needed/in range/in LoS to accomplish the job.
   
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 Blndmage wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Wyverns, Mortars, Airfrag projectors, Aeldari Missile Launchers, normal ass frag grenades, Fragstorm Aggressors, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc

Plenty of blast weapons that hit hordes. People aren’t filling their anti-infantry slots with LRBT, blast on those weapons is just an added bonus for the few times it might be relevant.


Soooo..mostly Imperial and Chaos stuff...got it

I'm sorry, what on that list besides frag grenades is available to chaos? Remember, gw killed R&H, those guard weapons are gone from the spikey hordes.
   
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 Blndmage wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Wyverns, Mortars, Airfrag projectors, Aeldari Missile Launchers, normal ass frag grenades, Fragstorm Aggressors, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc

Plenty of blast weapons that hit hordes. People aren’t filling their anti-infantry slots with LRBT, blast on those weapons is just an added bonus for the few times it might be relevant.


Soooo..mostly Imperial and Chaos stuff...got it


I mean in the holy trinity of Imperium - Chaos - Xenos, I think you’ll find amongst the playerbase most the weight sits on the first one and then trickles to the second one. So it’s meta dependant but almost definitely something you should take into account list building.

In fact most Xenos have some relevant blast weapons, the only reason I didn’t list them is because Xenos aren’t really as relevant as Imperium tbh and I just reached for the first examples on hand
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Squad per slot. If you want more Guardsmen you either need to stretch detachments or run Conscripts (50 model squads).

Just a real quick comment as I read the thread:
Conscripts haven't been able to do 50 model squads since the Codex dropped in 8th. Going from the Index to Codex dropped them down to 20 models base and then 30 models max.

They also cannot be targeted by "Consolidate Squads" stratagem, unless there's an FAQ I've missed, because it specifies Infantry Squads not infantry squads.

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you here Anomander, it just really stuck out at me. This is the kind of thing that I am usually talking about when I comment with regards to some people still not 'getting' what Guard are doing with regards to their core unit(the 10 model strong, no variable size beyond a Stratagem Infantry Squads) and why I thought the whole Horde+Blast thing was kinda daft.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Wyverns, Mortars, Airfrag projectors, Aeldari Missile Launchers, normal ass frag grenades, Fragstorm Aggressors, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc

Plenty of blast weapons that hit hordes. People aren’t filling their anti-infantry slots with LRBT, blast on those weapons is just an added bonus for the few times it might be relevant.


Soooo..mostly Imperial and Chaos stuff...got it

I'm sorry, what on that list besides frag grenades is available to chaos? Remember, gw killed R&H, those guard weapons are gone from the spikey hordes.

Well i guess we can throw havoc launchers on everything i guess.

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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