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 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And while I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

WISIWYG has never been a strict rule. And it's also perfectly fine to play with models that are assembled with a wargear that doesn't fit the flavour of the month.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And why I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Its GW nothing gets cheaper! Yeah I know re Sisters - I bought ALL of them - I said I would if they re-did them and I have - even managed to get the ltd box set

Necrons are not just old models being redone - lot of new models as well?

 insaniak wrote:

Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

GW has never made any particularly strong demands for WYSIWYG. It has barely even existed in the rules of most editions of the game. It is, and always has been, a player convention intended to make the game less confusing to play, and for the most part exactly how strictly it is followed has always been up to the players.

It is strong in tournaments, including those heavily backed by GWS. If they didn't want this, they could have easily explicitly stated it in the rules.

https://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2019/2019model.pdf

Messing with with wargear options constatly, putting some in legends, those are nasty for those of us who enjoy the hobby side.

GW doesn't write the tournament rules for AdeptiCon. Enforcing WYSIWYG is a choice made by tournament organizers to reduce cheating, nothing to do with GW.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And why I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Necrons are a bit differant from Marines in a few areas. Marines had just gotten a refreshed tactical marine kit, as well as a devestator and assault marine kit. all those kits are only about 5 years old or so now. GW can't keep just doing them, and the design space for old marines was getting pretty narrow. hence why in 6th and 7th the marine releases where centurions fliers and anti flier. all pretty niche stuff, Primaris allows them to basicly redo the entire marine line. which likely means insane levels of profits.

If GW wanted to replace "old Marines" with Primaris, they would have just made the new models "Marines".

The entire point of inventing the convoluted "Primaris" storyline only exists so you can have both "Primaris" and "old Marine".

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

 insaniak wrote:
GW doesn't write the tournament rules for AdeptiCon. Enforcing WYSIWYG is a choice made by tournament organizers to reduce cheating, nothing to do with GW.

Tournaments enforce it because it is the simplest rule to write.

GW knows tournaments enforce WYSIWYG, and GW writes and reshuffles rules so that loadouts become very imbalanced frequently. They cannot wash their hands from it.

We can go from individual infantry modeling to unit modeling; e.g. centurions were the MVPs towards the end of 8th and now it is aggressors. This is not random, GW did that with their rule writing.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
If GW wanted to replace "old Marines" with Primaris, they would have just made the new models "Marines".

The entire point of inventing the convoluted "Primaris" storyline only exists so you can have both "Primaris" and "old Marine".

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

That logic does not hold water.

Simply replacing all sculpts and making old marines unplayable would have both unwise (massive resistance of old marine players) and unfeasible (they did not have enough primaris models).
Alternatively, allowing both old and new marines to coexist with equal rules would have defeated the obvious purpose of selling new models.

Keeping old marines and expanding the marines line with new sculpts without making the newer the only supported and better IG would be a nightmare logistically (for production and retail) and a bad ROR for the investment in new sculpts (new molds, design, marketing).

The moment they rolled out the primaris line it became clear that it was planned obsolescence for old marines until they became irrelevant (and possibly legends).

Right now the only thing that I think might convince me GW didn't intend to squat old marines is a substantial release, like one that involved a serious investment: overhauling some squads or tanks that are showing their age, a flyer, specialist squad, some named characters defined by their choice or need to not be primaris, etc., that are kits that would be hard to repurpose and costly to take out of service, were the primaris line to become the only marines.

Rules support is relatively cheap.

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

That doesn't make any sense ....

Sadly, old marines (imo) are going away at some point. The catch is, when people hear this, they think "No! It's already been three years and they're still here! They aren't going anywhere!" While I wish that were true, I think it's more like a 10 year (from the first 8th ed Marine codex) time scale.

At the time of release of Primaris, GW still had a few molds of old marine stuff that likely haven't made their money back yet (due to being newer than some of the others) and then there's the fact that, of all the changes you could make to the game, squating old marines is the most significant imo. GW makes changes all the time that make people mad and threaten to quit, BUT coming out in 8th and saying "As of now, old marines are no more", would probably be one of the few changes that really could push away a large quantity of players over night.

The only way for them to do this without costing them too many customers is to soft-squat them. There are people out there (myself included in this) who literally have entire chapters of old marines. This isn't Squats where all they had was a handful of armor cast units and an "unofficial" codex in Inquisitor magazine. People own thousands of them. So yeah, it's going to be a long slow decent.

As for them getting 2 wounds? Honestly, I think they should have been like that in the first place but I think that was really more about getting CSM closer to par than anything else, and it becomes very hard to justify giving CSM 2w w/out giving the loyalists 2. I also think HBMC has a good point that giving loyalists 2 wounds is another way to begin to be able to say "see, they're so similar that we don't need both".

My bet is, in a few years, we start seeing the "No longer available online" tag on old marine units in the web store, and they just slowly start fading away at that point.
I would guess that the first 10th ed Marine book becomes the first marine book to omit firstborn stuff entirely.

EDIT:

-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.

Meant to add that quote as well because it's pretty damning in terms of the old marines. When CSM 2.0 came out, they updated the actual Chaos Marines and the Havocs to be bigger and get some additional love. I can't think of another time where a CSM kit got updated, and its equivalent Loyalist kit did NOT get updated. Loyalist stuff gets updated all the tiem without translating that back to the chaos side, but it's incredibly rare that it goes the other way. The only other one I can think of is the Helbrute, but that was more to just add tentacles to the them so they were more different. CSM models actually got scaled WAY up (my 'zerkers look like children next to them lol), as did the Havocs, and yet all the old marine stuff has remained the same.

From articles with people that worked for GW, it seems like GW planed to pull an End Times a long time, before 8th ed, alongside a partial reset for factions. But then the reaction to actual End Times and AoS happened, and they had to scramble to change stuff, because it is one thing to experiment with a game that generates loses and another to try it with the thing that keeps the company afloat.

In the end it probably matters little. Why is often an excuse, what matter is how. And 8th was the way it was, they clearly had no idea what to do with some factions, books like necrons, orcs, tyranids or GK were just put out, because everyone was suppose to get one and there was no in depth lore or faction balance behind it.

Tycho wrote:

-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.

Meant to add that quote as well because it's pretty damning in terms of the old marines. When CSM 2.0 came out, they updated the actual Chaos Marines and the Havocs to be bigger and get some additional love. I can't think of another time where a CSM kit got updated, and its equivalent Loyalist kit did NOT get updated. Loyalist stuff gets updated all the tiem without translating that back to the chaos side, but it's incredibly rare that it goes the other way. The only other one I can think of is the Helbrute, but that was more to just add tentacles to the them so they were more different. CSM models actually got scaled WAY up (my 'zerkers look like children next to them lol), as did the Havocs, and yet all the old marine stuff has remained the same.

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.

It's exactly my theory.

You're not the only one. One local player who got into 40k for the first time in 8th saw the writing on the wall for First Born Marines and bought nothing but Primaris units, I sort of regretted not being on the same page at first.

Now I'm looking at kitbashing Intercessor-based Tac, Devastator, and Assault Marines (and the feasibility of cannibalizing my existing marines to do it instead of buying all new stuff...) so my two-wound First Born don't look funny next to my two-wound Primaris. That other guy is in the same boat, except he doesn't have any First Born marines to be giving funny looks.

I mean honestly, what's the difference between any of the First Born veteran squads and a Primaris squad outside of the different war gear and transport options now that they have W2?

Primaris have an extra attack and better pistols *shrug*

IMO they just hit the pause button with this on their "grand plan" because even marine players are getting annoyed by all the primaris all the time. If they keep the flood of new marine up for another year, there is a chance of them impacting sales negatively because unhappy customers = less $$$.

 Jidmah wrote:
Primaris have an extra attack and better pistols *shrug*

First Born Veterans have the same A2 as basic Primaris, and better pistols would fall under "different wargear" even if most Primaris weren't carrying the same basic Bolt Pistol that all the First Born squads carry.

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet. And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Sisters survived when they were mail order AND metal only - I think the truely vast amounts of plastic marines means they will be around for at least a few decades.

Plus a large proportion of FW is dedicated to old school Marines

They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris,

Where's that?

We have numerous sources saying Bile will have some sort of answer, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Cawl has/will make traitor marines. That makes even less sense than the original fluff for the loyal Primaris. That said, I know there's Cawl stuff I haven't read so maybe it's in there? What's the source for that assumption?

Tycho wrote:

They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris,

Where's that?

We have numerous sources saying Bile will have some sort of answer, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Cawl has/will make traitor marines. That makes even less sense than the original fluff for the loyal Primaris. That said, I know there's Cawl stuff I haven't read so maybe it's in there? What's the source for that assumption?

I haven't seen it myself but as I understand it Cawl has access to the Emperor's original gene-seed banks for all 20 of the original Legions, including the traitors and the two that got redacted.

I haven't seen it myself but as I understand it Cawl has access to the Emperor's original gene-seed banks for all 20 of the original Legions, including the traitors and the two that got redacted.

"Has access to" is very different from "has or is going to make ..."

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet.

I'm sure they've decided.

But they haven't told us anything, just hinted around the subject in novels- if anything, Cawl's Primaris from 'traitor legion' stock would be more loyalists. But its also a pure fluff thing for people doing DYI chapters, it never needs to come up 'officially.'
Biles take on Primaris (at the end of Manflayer) is riddled with a lot of contempt, for both the concept and for Abaddon looking for a counter. But like I said, what form that 'counter' takes doesn't have to be primaris.

If it happens on the table at all, which isn't a certainty- the current status quo may last for a while (and IMO should), especially with the updates to wounds and equipment. I'd like to see where chaos stands with improved gear, 2W, all the various stuff (F&F, etc) integrated into the main codex, and updated legion traits and 'chaos doctrines.' Once we've got a good idea of where Chaos stands after the 9th edition codex, then we can worry about 'chaos vs. primaris.' Personally, I don't think it will be a big deal after all the changes catch up.

And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Not sure what this is about. All marines going to 2W isn't a fluff or 'energy' thing. Its pure game mechanics, supposedly to better represent marines as they've always existed.


-----

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Sure, in theory. In practice, a helbrute isn't the same as a dreadnought (different stats and equipment) and its all the chaos codex gives access to.
And yes, you can do non-spiky bikes and things, but getting a hold of models that match the increased height of the new chaos marines (let alone primaris, without actually being primaris) will get increasingly difficult over time.

The Newman wrote:
First Born Veterans have the same A2 as basic Primaris, and better pistols would fall under "different wargear" even if most Primaris weren't carrying the same basic Bolt Pistol that all the First Born squads carry.

The real difference is in force org slots. You can't take oldmarine veterans as Troops, and given that they're usually Elites, they're in a hotly contested slot. For that reason I still don't think veterans will be that popular in the new Codex unless their slot changes.

As for Helbrutes? From a lore perspective, they are still basically Dreadnoughts - the difference being the allegiance and mindset of the occupant, not the level of mutation. You can put spikes on an Imperial Dread and presto, you've still got a Helbrute, the fleshy bits aren't necessary.

Voss wrote:

Sure, in theory. In practice, a helbrute isn't the same as a dreadnought (different stats and equipment) and its all the chaos codex gives access to.
And yes, you can do non-spiky bikes and things, but getting a hold of models that match the increased height of the new chaos marines (let alone primaris, without actually being primaris) will get increasingly difficult over time.

You can still take a Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought at the moment and its only difference with a regular helbrute is that it looses it "Frenzied" ability. The equipment and stats stays the same.
Its gonna suck if they get rid of oldmarines without giving an equivalent option for non corrupted traitor legions.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet. And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Then how did tacs gw 2W? It has nothing to do with absorbing chaos energy, it's just gw making all marines equal. 2W Chosen are csm answer to primaris: same number of wounds, attacks, cc weapons in addition to guns, and a greater selection of available weapons.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Thanks for saying this so I didn't have to. Ave Dominus Nox.

This isn't remotely proof that old marines aren't going away. The only proof - and I mean the only proof, I don't care if the shout it from the rooftops that old marines aren't going away, it doesn't matter a bit - is if they come out with a range of new old marine kits. As long as that doesn't happen, the get rid of old marines plan is very much still in action, it's just going ahead slowly and deliberately.

yukishiro1 wrote:
This isn't remotely proof that old marines aren't going away. The only proof - and I mean the only proof, I don't care if the shout it from the rooftops that old marines aren't going away, it doesn't matter a bit - is if they come out with a range of new old marine kits. As long as that doesn't happen, the get rid of old marines plan is very much still in action, it's just going ahead slowly and deliberately.

As pro-first born as I am, I must say the initial release of Primaris weren't as bad as I thought they were. Sure I only own 3 and ETB ones at that, but painting them made life a hell of a lot easier. I'm not sure that'll follow through to the newer models like the Bladeguard and the like, the clean basic lines of the initial Primaris are gone.

I never cared for the aesthetic of the Reavers aesthetically but honestly, the entire range should get Primarised. I realize this is exactly what GW want and likely happening anyway but having my Primaris next to my entire army of Marines dating back to 1990's the Primaris models are just better models. They make my other (scant and old) factions look like 1980's music and shoulder pads.

Sure Squatting your whole $5000 collection is sucky, I'm not trying to argue against that. I *do* think they should keep support around for the older models, even if just at a basic level. But honestly if they Squat my Firstborn, look a Counts-As army. I'll call them Runt Primaris or something. But as an update to the product line? They aren't bad.

Now just re-assign whoever designed the ATV and the Justicar, please.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think the truely vast amounts of plastic marines means they will be around for at least a few decades.

My guess is classic marines will go away when GW decides to launch SM 3.0 making all primaris armies obsolete and forcing SM players to re-buy their army again

Well, I plan to play old-school Marines with 2W for my BA in the near future eagerly waiting for the release of the codex.
In a BA army, the signature units like DC and Baal Preds are a must have.