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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Now the imperium can only ent new kinds of power armour, jump packs, bolters Floating tanks etc. And Cawl has improved in the emperors work.
And had the Emperor's explicit permission to do so.

Just want to make that point clear.


I’m not trying to make a point about Cawl/primaris story line, everything people have said here is correct. What I’m saying is that GW crated this new story to justify it the primaris model line. It’s very deus ex. Everything you knew about the imperium is wrong cos there’s this guy that’s been living underground For 10k year that has all the answers.

I’m not against the idea, just think it could have been done better.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Now the imperium can only ent new kinds of power armour, jump packs, bolters Floating tanks etc. And Cawl has improved in the emperors work.
And had the Emperor's explicit permission to do so.

Just want to make that point clear.


I’m not trying to make a point about Cawl/primaris story line, everything people have said here is correct. What I’m saying is that GW crated this new story to justify it the primaris model line. It’s very deus ex. Everything you knew about the imperium is wrong cos there’s this guy that’s been living underground For 10k year that has all the answers.

I’m not against the idea, just think it could have been done better.
The "everything you thought you knew about XYZ" - but isn't that what made things like the HH and stuff appealing, that your preconceptions *could* have been wrong?

Now, obviously, there's a difference between not knowing if what you thought you knew is wrong, and knowing for sure that what you thought you new is wrong, but for most people saying "well, that's not what it used to be!" are oftentimes the same people who say "well, anything to do with the lore in 40k is from an unreliable narrator anyway".

Basically, I feel there's a lot of hoops that people jump through to discredit modern lore. I'm not attacking your argument, just using your comments to make a separate observation, if that makes sense!

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It’s also nothing new. The background has always been fluid.

About the only things set in stone are the Emperor being on the Golden Throne, and eventually the Eldar birthing Slaanesh.

Tyranids, Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar - even Orks getting physically larger as they fight are quite modern.

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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

You must admit though that, I think other than the transition from 1st to 2nd edition (when really they were fleshing out and creating the 40k identity) the changes over the past few years - specifically the Cawl stuff, although that's just part of it - far outweigh any other changes that have been made in the past 25 years or so.

It's made me realise actually that I've been left behind, and I'm actually just stinking up the place now for people who are onboard a bit more with the times and actually enjoy it.

I shall now retreat to my refuge of old White Dwarf mags and shake my fist angrily whenever I see a Primarch or Primaris miniature in a GW store window


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mrFickle wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Now the imperium can only ent new kinds of power armour, jump packs, bolters Floating tanks etc. And Cawl has improved in the emperors work.
And had the Emperor's explicit permission to do so.

Just want to make that point clear.


I’m not trying to make a point about Cawl/primaris story line, everything people have said here is correct. What I’m saying is that GW crated this new story to justify it the primaris model line. It’s very deus ex. Everything you knew about the imperium is wrong cos there’s this guy that’s been living underground For 10k year that has all the answers.

I’m not against the idea, just think it could have been done better.


I do think they could have given hints and glimpses before the unveiling. GW has always been very good about breadcrumbs in the background (even if they often do not lead to anything). Ynnari as a concept was a background feature for a long time before the entity fumbled its way into existence (and the army subsequently floundered on the table).

Part of the kneejerk reaction to Primaris is they hit the setting cold, and smashed the panic button labelled 'Change!' References to Cawl and his Great Work should have been in the Ad Mech double codex, a battlefield with unidentified marines with unfamiliar weapons, etc. Just little snippets in 7th (and maybe 6th, though I'm not sure the development timeline works) edition publications would have made a big difference.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 04:25:23


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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South Africa

mrFickle wrote:
, new terminators and dreadnoughts could not be made and they could not be dismantled in order to see how they were made.



You can't maintain a suit of armor for 10 000 years without repairing it. You'd figure out how it works. You'd have to build new parts. You'd have to provide new suits to new chapters. The appearance of Centurions et all shows they are capable of building new equipment if there is a plan. In 10 000 years you could reverse engineer anything.


KBK 
   
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Kayback wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
, new terminators and dreadnoughts could not be made and they could not be dismantled in order to see how they were made.



You can't maintain a suit of armor for 10 000 years without repairing it. You'd figure out how it works. You'd have to build new parts. You'd have to provide new suits to new chapters. The appearance of Centurions et all shows they are capable of building new equipment if there is a plan. In 10 000 years you could reverse engineer anything.



Well that sounds logical but we’re talking 40K here and the old lore was setup around this idea that the imperium has stagnated and they had replaced scientific knowledge with religious beatification.

As story line it’s probably not sustainable but it was way cooler. And yes the lore has always been fluid. I remember an old white dwarf when they brought out flying units for Epic. And there was a story about how the imperium had lost its knowledge of flying and some how recovered it.

All I’m really getting at is some changes are good and some are bad and the way they did cawl and primaris was bad. Because it either went too far or not far enough. It very quickly turn a lot of ideas on their head for SM whilst ignoring the rest of the imperium. For SM to go through some sort of technological revolution and the rest of the imperium to be totally ignored, I dunno it feels odd.

For me all they really needed to do was say they discovered a cache of new STCs. Or take it further than they did and have RG use the primaris to re conquer the imperium and take take the cult of the emperor and all the other nasty bits that exploit humanity for their own gain. Or something. Now the imperium, to me, feels like it’s running 2 conflicting identities.
   
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Kayback wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
, new terminators and dreadnoughts could not be made and they could not be dismantled in order to see how they were made.



You can't maintain a suit of armor for 10 000 years without repairing it. You'd figure out how it works. You'd have to build new parts. You'd have to provide new suits to new chapters. The appearance of Centurions et all shows they are capable of building new equipment if there is a plan. In 10 000 years you could reverse engineer anything.



Ahhh, now, on this point?

I’m learning to tinker with my car. Nothing too fancy. So far, the extent of my knowledge is replacing drop link pins (which help stabilise the suspension) and wiring in my new stereo.

I’m also capable of replacing lights, bulbs, fuses and spark plugs. All of that, without any real understanding or care about how the whole of the thing works.

Repairing and maintaining is relatively easy. Building it from scratch? Not to much.

It could be that, once the armour is stripped away, Dreadnought suits are massively temperamental, with bits and bobs liable to leave their socket with a modicum off force - but those bits are made to such robust specifications they need only be popped back in. But all the time they’re out of place, the whole of the thing grinds to a halt. Being able to identify the problem and relocate the rogue linkage requires less knowledge than building that part from scratch.

It’s also entirely possible that it’s the insular and selfish nature of Forgeworlds that the know-how and resources to fabricate entirely new suits is spread out over multiple. Perhaps Metallica can sort you with the MIU link and legs, but you’ll need to speak to Ryza for the Sarcophagus, and only a relatively obscure Forgeworld can actually produce the On Switch.

The Imperium. It’s a logistical nightmare!

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I've made that kind of comparison elsewhere recently, only with PC building.
How many of us know how to build a PC by putting the core components together and bunging an OS on?
Now... how many of those know how to code the OS from scratch?

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Okay, but the Mechanicus isn't a bunch of random uneducated guys tinkering with stuff without really bothering to understand it. Sure they're more into religion than the scientific method, but they haven't forgotten everything. Basic laws of physics and equations are part of their cult.

If something holds them back, it's dogma, not their incapability to understand how machines work. There are even some heretek cults that reverse-engineer xeno technology; considering the mechanicus can make regular power armour, I'm sure they could figure out how terminator armor is made if they really tried.
Problem is, they would have to come up with their own blueprints instead of a STC and that's verboten.
   
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Some of them aren’t. The longer you serve and the higher your rank, the deeper in the mysteries you’re inducted.

Your lower level Enginseer likely couldn’t build an engine, but certainly knows how to swap out parts. Whereas an Arch Magos may well have the knowledge to properly assess an STC fragment to see whether it’s worth mass production, filing, or hoarding.

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This was one of the worst aspects of the new fluff. It shattered the image of an Imperium struggling to survive but still on the cusp of collapse. I have come to reconcile it by looking at it not as a sign that the Imperium is suddenly more capable of production but, rather, that the Imperium has always lacked focus, a clear unified agenda, and strong leadership. The primarch's return means that there is a rare glimmer of unity that has been sorely lacking with various institutions literally fighting one another. If even a small fraction of the Imperium's resources could be marshaled under with a single goal in mind, they could more than easily produce the arms, ships, weapons, etc. necessary to outfit millions of marines. The point is that to do so means taking resources from another branch of the government and, normally, that would have led to overt conflict that stalled any ambitious plans.

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Princeps of the Titan 'SDF-1'






Imperial Logistics are mind boggling.

By our standards, the Imperium has near infinite resources of both man and material. The trick is, getting the man and material to the right place at the right time.

This is why the Imperial Guard’s standard issue is the humble Lasgun. Yes, we joke about it as players. Yes in-game it’s pretty crap.

But? In-universe? It’s ideal. It can be produced in the millions by any Hive World. It lacks moving parts, so requires little training beyond “point this end at the enemy”.

It’s power packs are largely standardised. So chances are even if you receive the wrong shipment, you can still make use of what you did receive.

We see the same across the vehicles of the Imperial Guard. Basic, robust, relatively easily maintained. Or, to put it another way? About as foolproof as can be had.

And that’s how the Imperium holds it together. It doesn’t matter if you get the wrong shipment of Leman Russ, Chimera, Lasgun, Power Packs etc - your men under arms can still, most likely, use it all the same.

Fancy things such as Bolters? Those require actual maintenance. Same with other, more impressive guns and materiel.

In terms of stability of union, it’s hard to beat The Imperium because their resources are greater than yours by some degree.]

Sure, the sheer bureaucracy might mean they don’t rock up to give you a righteous kicking for a few decades? But it’s coming. And when it does? It’ll overwhelm all but the strongest and cleverest of defences.

Splitting the Imperium in Twain? Weakens that.

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 Grumblewartz wrote:
This was one of the worst aspects of the new fluff. It shattered the image of an Imperium struggling to survive but still on the cusp of collapse. I have come to reconcile it by looking at it not as a sign that the Imperium is suddenly more capable of production but, rather, that the Imperium has always lacked focus, a clear unified agenda, and strong leadership. The primarch's return means that there is a rare glimmer of unity that has been sorely lacking with various institutions literally fighting one another. If even a small fraction of the Imperium's resources could be marshaled under with a single goal in mind, they could more than easily produce the arms, ships, weapons, etc. necessary to outfit millions of marines. The point is that to do so means taking resources from another branch of the government and, normally, that would have led to overt conflict that stalled any ambitious plans.


Its actually even more byzantine and complicated than that.
There are a lot of details to it, but the hard stop is the Ad Mech aren't part of the Imperium. They're _allied_ to the Imperium.
In practice this line gets blurred, but the Ad Mech have a lot of ability to say 'No.' Especially at lower levels- any random general or fleet commander doesn't have a lot of leverage barring exceptional circumstances like, 'Hey, there is a tyranid fleet incoming next month, and we can just not be here when it arrives.'

And equipment from Forge Worlds usually flows to the Ministorum, who assign it based on the information they have, which may be years or decades out of date. The Navy and the Guard are also separate organizations so things can also get out of whack there, and sometimes the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition can put their own individual oars in. Oh and sometimes supplies go out on chartered ships, so that's another organization involved. And the Navigators are their own organization with their own pull, and despite being filthy mutants, that matters sometimes too.

Any supply trip involves at least a half-a-dozen institutions, plus the local planets and their rulers, and any of them have the ability to introduce complications.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 20:28:10


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Somehow, the Imperium has managed to combine the worst aspects of a decentralized, feudal-like government with the worst aspects of a centralized autocracy. That's pretty impressive, when you think about it
   
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 Tiennos wrote:
Somehow, the Imperium has managed to combine the worst aspects of a decentralized, feudal-like government with the worst aspects of a centralized autocracy. That's pretty impressive, when you think about it


Yeah. Dawn of Fire Book 1 has a very weird subplot that doesn't quite hook up with anything else.

Basically, a young scribe finds has a urgent message come across her desk (for filing), has a religious epiphany about it, and decides she has to take it to a different office in the next spire.
Which basically means a pilgrimage through the lower levels of the various scribe and paper associated guilds, all centered around 'Ultima-level' messages (basically, 'Help, <Xenos> are attacking <planet>'), and the layers and layers of them that have built up in the spire. So life in the lower spire centers around this leftover paper, including warring guilds like the Incinerators and Recyclers, who want to burn paper to make room (and provide energy to generate power in the spire), or recycle paper to record the next round of messages. Think Necromunda gangs, but paper based. Its alternately absurd, surreal, and puzzling, but neatly illustrates how borked the Imperium is, and how old and worn down Terra is.

The end of her journey is a spoiler that I won't share, but it isn't at all surprising.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 00:19:55


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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yhea, the fact that the imperium isnt monolithic isnt really a suprise to anyone familliar with the lore. I suppose the reason people dont complain about, for example, the way that cadians get mk-36 lasrifles and the catchans use mk4 carbines is that the game treats that as "beneath" them and gives them the same stat-line as "las-gun". i think part of the complaints about the 30+ bolter weapons is that it every unit seems to have its own unique gun with a statline and its hard for even the players running SM to remember what the stats of his own guns are, let alone the other side trying to form a coherent response to them. do those marines there have 24" guns, or 30"? are they strength 5 or 4? will i be facing 10 shots, or 15, or 20 at this range? is that the same as that almost simmilar looking bunch on the left flank? none of this is supposed to be "secret" info that they can't find out, but in practice asking to confirm everything all the time slows the game down so much that we might not bother.


Edit: I'm sorry, i let my annoyance at a rules element spill over into a discussion about lore. My apologies, ill try and keep it out of this forum section

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 21:33:56


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Problem with Primaris warhead, ESPECIALLY vehicles, is that the imperium has trouble making them. The fact all primaris tanks are hover tanks with basically experimental technology means that having your whole armoured division hover is fine... until attrition becomes a real thing and tanks are lost faster than they can build them. 100 years after their reveal it might be plausible for all their wargear, which is all so unique, to be ubiquitous., But what about in another 100 years? Or 200 years? How can the Admech keep on resupplying thing that they already have so much trouble and taking so long making like all the hover tanks and all the pointless weapons individual primaris marines carry?

Like, how many forgeworlds can even create a repulser? and how many have access to schematics for Belisarius pattern plasma weaponry? Because it sure as hell is less than the amount that have access to even the regular plasma weapons if were to judge based on Cawls secrecy and admech tech hoarding.

All marines will be Primaris. But simply put, the Imperium just wont be able to replace the losses of assets that are even harder to produce than the assets that they seem to have replaced, which were already extremely hard to produce. Realistically, Marine forces should not be using impulsors as rhino replacements and repulsors as land raiders, etc. They should be used in conjunction with them and should be much more rare than they are now. I'm just praying GW for once gets some common sense and make some fething space marine tanks on proper treads in the future as the timeline progresses. Not this all-hover, super common relic bs we have now.

Also, that Primaris marines are deliberately made unflexible on the squad level is purely slowed. Unless, and only unless Guilliman is trying to recreate the Legions or enlargening chapters by like 5 to 10 times their size will the idea of single-weapon units ever be feasible. It litteraly makes no sense. If you just think about it, how marines are used now, like individual squads doing missions on their own, the tiny ass size of chapters, etc, then you'll quickly see the stupidity of having such unflexible units . But whatever, that's something for a slightly different topic.

I used to be proud of knowing and loving 40k but starting since near the end of 7th when gw started hiring the gakiest artists in their history who made the most childish looking or most disproportionately drawn artwork we have ever seen, combined with the cringey ass fluff starting from Rising Storn or w.e it was called, up until now with all the Primaris crap targetted towards kids under 12 (which is the culmination of the most cheesy and cringy art and lore I have experienced yet).. Well, now it's just embarassing.

40k was so cool just a few years ago. I wouldnt hesitate to bring it up or mention it at all with my friends, and they're dudes who think this stuff is nerdy. Now I'm ashamed I'm even a fan at all and never bring it up. My god. Most of the current artwork, and all of the primaris fluff... Its all so lame and kiddy now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 02:29:13


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Doing some number crunching here... Let's assume that every Marine chapter is 100% mechanized (honestly a biiig assumption) And every Marine chapter is 100% Primaris (yet again biiig assumption)

and that there are one thousand chapters of space marines in the galaxy (give or take)

now, for ease of sanity we're going to assume every heavy support squad is in gravis armor, and every fast attack squad is in tacticus armor, and that only gravis armor gets repulsors, everyone else gets Impulsors.

First Company will need 20 Impulsors,
as will the Two battleline and assault reserve company. (for 80 Impulsors period)
the Battle companies will need, 16 Impulsors, and 4 Repulsors.
the heavy support company will need a whooping 20 Repulsors (this is, yet again assuming 100% mechanization and that they're all equipped as heavy intercessors)
The 10th company, assuming 100 vanguard marines and 100 scouts, will need 20 Impulsors and 20 Land Speeder Storms.

totaling to a need for 116 Impulsors, 24 Repulsors, and 20 Land Speeder Storms.

Now... there are an estimated 1000 marine chapters in the galaxy,

this means if every one was a FULLY mechanized the IoM would need to have produced 116000 Impulsors, 24000 Repulsors and yeah have 20000 land speeder storms about.

it's proably doable given Cawl had 10 thousand years to perpare. at the same time we know for a fact that many marine chapters continue to make old marines in part because of these logistical issues.

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Though i'm sure it's been mentioned before but it should be noted that Cawl did make the current armor and weapons to be very modular. In a few places it describes how between missions an aggressor squad can switch between being armed with the bolt or the flamer weapons. I know it's unrealistic to believe that the marine commander can plan for every single eventuality when building his forces loadouts, but then again very little about marines is realistic by current standards.

Actually, best way I imagine it. Who remembers Zoids? Particularly the first season where the main robot could go into this big arse snail building/tank thing and have a bunch of outside parts taken off and different ones slapped on to change it's capabilities. Same thing would work with Repulsors and most armor types. Hell if the guns can be built similar to how you put together the physical ones they could even switch mid mission if there was a resupply point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 02:50:11


 
   
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So, dangerous theory time.

Cawl was, as I am understanding, given direct orders to start stockpiling and keep improving despite what the rest of the Cogboys are doing at the time. He was also one of the original guys (well, kinda) working on Space Marines, so he knows what he's doing more so than the average Cogboy.

Now, keep in mind that Cawl's motivations may be sketchy- but his work has been focused on the Primaris project. He's not been worrying about advancing to the next tier Cogboy priest rank, he's not had to navigate Cogboy politics, he's not had to divide his work efforts between as many things as a good chunk of the Cogboys are prone to doing. Or maybe it has, and he's just been at this so long he's learned to manage his tasks better than they do.

I have a theory that the Admech has spent the last ~10,000 years looking at the Imperium and saying, "Yup, they're screwed". Not "We", but "They". I've had a feeling that the overall Admech has been silently wanting to sever ties to the Imperium and nullify the Treaty of Olympus Mons- but without particularly making it obvious and provoking a response from the Imperium. I think they've not necessarily withheld technology and deliberately slowed production, but maybe they've... taken extra precautionary methods that require more time. Or redirected their priorities for resources here and there.

Like- imagine one of those shady mechanics that finds 10 problems with your truck when you just wanted him to fix 2 things. He's probably exaggerating most, if not all of the other 8 problems he found- and there's even a chance those 'broken' things are something that he broke and thought you'd never realize it. Some of those problems aren't really 'problems' at all, or they're something you could take care of in an hour. So he's gonna milk you for every buck he can.

Keep in mind that there were a lot of traitors in the Admech during the Horus Heresy and at a certain point, the Imperium didn't bother with trying to figure out which ones were loyal and which ones weren't- they were too important and it simply wasn't worth the effort. After the insanity that went down on Mars combined with the Horus Heresy, I doubt either side wanted to fire up any sort of violent, destructive purge on Mars and deplete even MORE lives and resources- both were content to just agree that all the Cogboys that were left were good Cogboys, and as long as they played loyal there was no reason to speculate otherwise, right?

I think the Admech has, for the longest time, looked at their arrangement with the Imperium and seen the obvious:
-The Imperium needs the Admech, not nearly as much vice versa
-The Admech will get Astartes visits if they don't help the Imperium
-Astartes need to be armed by Admech routinely in order to be dangerous
-The less dangerous the Astartes are, the less leverage the Imperium has over the Admech
-Every world can be a Forge World if you're brave enough

And then comes Cawl, out of nowhere, giving the Chapters of Astartes loads of new wargear and more badass Marines. And there's a living demigod that's pushing that forward.

The game's changed now. So yeah, the Admech hates Cawl for a reason. Well, a lot of reasons- some better than others. But when this MIA Cogboy shows up and essentially tilts the balance of power back into the hands of the Imperium and puts them on slightly more even footing? Well, yeah, of course he's a Heretek. For... reasons and stuff. Like... that stuff other Cogboys have been trying to do or have done themselves, yeah. That's it. Shame on him.

Of course, when something like this happens- you can bet there's a ton of Cogboys that take the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" route and suddenly manifest the knowledge to assist in keeping those new Astartes boys fit to fight. That gun system that took a year to fix? Well of course now they can knock that out in a week. All that stuff Cawl's doing with power armor and the like? Yeah, oh look at that- mmmmaaaaybe those rites and prayers and ungents and what-have-you that took weeks? Well, they can do a condensed version, I suppose. Praise the Omnissiah, I suppose.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 04:44:19


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The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?
   
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Because there are untold Billions under arms? If an improved basic equipment uses even 1% more resources to produce, that’s a massive uptick in what’s needed to maintain supplies.

Most Guardsman are also likely close to illiterate. Hence the majority of their equipment is pretty basic and foolproof.


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mrFickle wrote:
The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?
I don't think regular humans can properly use Space Marine equipment, not until they refit it to a normal size, at least. Even the SoB have their own pattern of bolter so it's not guaranteed that they could just pick up a Marine bolter as is.

And as far as making new equipment for the IG... Yeah it's just way too big. Producing shiny new plasma guns for an elite force that represents 0.001% of your whole military is a piece of cake compared to giving a new pair of socks to the other 99.999%.
   
Made in fi
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 spiralingcadaver wrote:
The new! big! extra-big! extra-new! Marines with special bolters as troops choices kinda got me thinking... What happened to Marines (of any kind) being special?


When you need endless supply of new models to sell fluff goes to hell.

Kits sell most of their lifetime sales in matter of months. Marines are bit more resilient to that but even them older kits don't sell much anymore. Got to churn out new kits so GW can keep cash flow flowing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?


Uuuhh....Yea right. Human would be breaking his wrist, arm and shoulder trying to fire marine sized weapon. There's reason Inquisitors, SOB etc use different version with smaller ones. You don't go picking up marine weapon and expect to fire. You a) aren't nearly as strong as marine b) you don't have power armoured suit. Unarmoured marine can punch through door and twist metal bars. He can wield weapons whose recoils would break normal human by sheer recoil.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 12:46:50


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Made in us
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mrFickle wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Now the imperium can only ent new kinds of power armour, jump packs, bolters Floating tanks etc. And Cawl has improved in the emperors work.
And had the Emperor's explicit permission to do so.

Just want to make that point clear.


I’m not trying to make a point about Cawl/primaris story line, everything people have said here is correct. What I’m saying is that GW crated this new story to justify it the primaris model line. It’s very deus ex. Everything you knew about the imperium is wrong cos there’s this guy that’s been living underground For 10k year that has all the answers.

I’m not against the idea, just think it could have been done better.
I very much agree with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?
The numbers are way off there; all the vanilla marine equipment in the galaxy could equip maybe one planet worth of guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 13:09:41


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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Space marines draw upon the resources of a 1 million planet empire. It is pretty close to infinite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?

Slightly upgrade the tools of a trillion men? or greatly upgrade the tools for a million super soldiers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 13:52:08


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xerxeskingofking wrote:
its also worth pointing out it took crawl literally thousands of years to improve on what the Emperor did in (at most) a few hundred years, and most likely a few dozen.

Improving over time is the opposite of what a lot of people love about the Imperium's lore. I mean, just here, there is this thread:
40k: Descendant Degeneration
that is a love letter to the grim-dark of 40k, and degeneration isn't exactly about improving over time .

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
its also worth pointing out it took crawl literally thousands of years to improve on what the Emperor did in (at most) a few hundred years, and most likely a few dozen.

Improving over time is the opposite of what a lot of people love about the Imperium's lore. I mean, just here, there is this thread:
40k: Descendant Degeneration
that is a love letter to the grim-dark of 40k, and degeneration isn't exactly about improving over time .


granted people love that in the background but it's the oppisite with rules, how many people would like it if every new unit we got was worse and worse?

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Executing Exarch






Tinfoil hat theory time:

What if G-man and cawl have an arrengment where G man creates true Imperium secundus..

What if he and cawl had a deal where Cawl will ascend as the true omnisiah, G-man will be happy for emps to be forgotten and the IOM to become secular again, so cawl is allowed to inovate all he wants as long as he feeds the muscle of SM which in turns protects cawl from the cog boys until such time as cawl ascends and controls all the cog boys. Gman keeps feeding any STC tech to cawl on the understanding he keeps getting gear (they never have to speak of an otherwise very rapid and brutal surgical SM deployment).

All they really need to happen now is Emps to kick the bucket...

I think Cawl is no more heretic then Zeph was.
As long as he gets results surpassing competion Emper-..erm I mean G man will protect.

For all intents and purposes isint Cawl the literal omniisiah?? Ashe has potentially copied himself infinitely that put the Omni in the Omnisiah if I ever saw..

Im only up to mechanichum with BL novels so just spit ballin here

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
 
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