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Made in us
Ground Crew





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Firstborn actually got two releases in 8th via SM Heroes.
A blind box release made for a different market that then gets a general release later on is hardly a "Firstborn release". And the second one was Terminators. They're quite a bit different ot your average Marine.


That raises a good question: Where do Terminators wind up in all this? Gravis Primaris don't quite seem to supplant them directly and Terminators have an iconic look that the Primaris don't yet rewrite.

In fact, that's gonna be my critical warning bell for the death of Firstborn: the creation of some Super Gravis armor that completely supplants Terminator Armor stats (e.g. T5 3W 2+/4++)
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 CEO Kasen wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Firstborn actually got two releases in 8th via SM Heroes.
A blind box release made for a different market that then gets a general release later on is hardly a "Firstborn release". And the second one was Terminators. They're quite a bit different ot your average Marine.


That raises a good question: Where do Terminators wind up in all this? Gravis Primaris don't quite seem to supplant them directly and Terminators have an iconic look that the Primaris don't yet rewrite.

In fact, that's gonna be my critical warning bell for the death of Firstborn: the creation of some Super Gravis armor that completely supplants Terminator Armor stats (e.g. T5 3W 2+/4++)

Well, you just described Blightlord Terminators, so that's probably coming. Gw's already stolen pretty much everything else from every other faction for primaris, might as well steal those too.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think Terminators are far too iconic to 40K to be removed. Ok, yes, you could have said the same thing about Marines 3 years ago, but, the Primaris release hasn't produced something that replaces Terminators. Gravis armour is bulky, but it's still a Marine in there.

And how are Blightlord Termeris the deathknell of regular Terminators? They're just Terminators + Nurgle?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 22:23:24


   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




I think Terminators are far too iconic to 40K to be removed.

Ok, yes, you could have said the same thing about Marines 3 years ago, but, the Primaris release hasn't produced something that replaces Terminators.

Gravis armour is bulky, but it's still a Marine in there.


There are a few units not just in the main Marine book, but also in the snowflake books that I don't think work well as Primaris. For example, Wolf Lords riding the Wolf mounts or whatever they're called - those are silly aleady - now we're gonna "Primaris" them? I hope not.

When it's all said and done, I could see room for some of the truly iconic units to remain. Terminators are a great example. They've had a new kit recently enough that they don't look silly next to the new stuff, and in the fluff, the suits are precious, but you can't fit a Primaris into it. I can see a future where they say something like "the remaining Firstborn volunteered to remain this side of the Primaris Rubicon in order to man the precious suits of Tactical Dreadnought armor still available to each chapter." That way, they don't have to "replace" so iconic a unit.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...


I somehow doubt you'll see them performing...


This is how you know you have no idea what you're talking about. Minimarine units make up the bulk of GOOD SM units as is. Devs in a pod are utterly ubiquitous. With 2 wounds, tacs are dead heat with Intercessors.



Wake the feth up.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Tycho wrote:
There are a few units not just in the main Marine book, but also in the snowflake books that I don't think work well as Primaris. For example, Wolf Lords riding the Wolf mounts or whatever they're called - those are silly aleady - now we're gonna "Primaris" them? I hope not.
Removing First Born wolf mounts would be a good way to de-Flanderize the Wolves, much as I like the Thunderwolf minis.

Tycho wrote:
When it's all said and done, I could see room for some of the truly iconic units to remain. Terminators are a great example. They've had a new kit recently enough that they don't look silly next to the new stuff, and in the fluff, the suits are precious, but you can't fit a Primaris into it. I can see a future where they say something like "the remaining Firstborn volunteered to remain this side of the Primaris Rubicon in order to man the precious suits of Tactical Dreadnought armor still available to each chapter." That way, they don't have to "replace" so iconic a unit.
Or they could just say that they found a way to interface Primaris Marines with Terminator armour.

Remember, 40k fluff is arbitrary. It will change to meet whatever the current needs are, and often with no consideration of what came before.

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






ERJAK wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...


I somehow doubt you'll see them performing...


This is how you know you have no idea what you're talking about. Minimarine units make up the bulk of GOOD SM units as is. Devs in a pod are utterly ubiquitous. With 2 wounds, tacs are dead heat with Intercessors.
I don't even see that. I think Tacs well outperform Intercessors because of their weapon options. What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Or they could just say that they found a way to interface Primaris Marines with Terminator armour.

Remember, 40k fluff is arbitrary. It will change to meet whatever the current needs are, and often with no consideration of what came before.


Entirely possible. I'm just hoping they don't. I'm fine with old Tacs, etc going away - it was bound to happen some time, but Terminators - the idea of them being squatted just hurts. It's ... I want to say the idea is un-American but that's not right ... eh - you get my drift I think.

Would love for them to find a way to at least keep Termis.

What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!


Exactly! Just in time for CSM players to get pumped about their 2 wounds, Primaris get infantry with guns that do 2D. That CAN'T be a coincidence.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 22:49:57


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Tycho wrote:
I'm fine with old Tacs, etc going away - it was bound to happen some time, but Terminators - the idea of them being squatted just hurts.
I think I'd rate Tacs higher than Terminators in that regard. To me a Tactical Squad and their Rhino is the quintessential Space Marine unit. Terminators come in a very close second. That may depend on whether or not you played Space Hulk before 40K though They're both absolutely iconic, though.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Old marines won’t get squatted until such time as its no longer profitable to manufacture them and that’s easy to stimulate by just buffing them which they have done.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




I think I'd rate Tacs higher than Terminators in that regard. To me a Tactical Squad and their Rhino is the quintessential Space Marine unit. Terminators come in a very close second. That may depend on whether or not you played Space Hulk before 40K though They're both absolutely iconic, though.


That's a good point. For me, the very first thing I ever saw of 40k was a Terminator, so that's likely why I landed on that. Hard to argue against your point though! That is pretty iconic!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Tycho wrote:
What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!


Exactly! Just in time for CSM players to get pumped about their 2 wounds, Primaris get infantry with guns that do 2D. That CAN'T be a coincidence.

2D guns AND 3W, yeah quite a "coincidence".

Oh well, I guess loyalists need all the help they can get.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!


Exactly! Just in time for CSM players to get pumped about their 2 wounds, Primaris get infantry with guns that do 2D. That CAN'T be a coincidence.

2D guns AND 3W, yeah quite a "coincidence".

Oh well, I guess loyalists need all the help they can get.
On the plus side, Meltas do 3W minimum in close range. And to be honest, Heavy Intercessors will never, ever be even one-tenth as cool as Chaos Terminators. Ever.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!


Exactly! Just in time for CSM players to get pumped about their 2 wounds, Primaris get infantry with guns that do 2D. That CAN'T be a coincidence.

2D guns AND 3W, yeah quite a "coincidence".

Oh well, I guess loyalists need all the help they can get.
On the plus side, Meltas do 3W minimum in close range. And to be honest, Heavy Intercessors will never, ever be even one-tenth as cool as Chaos Terminators. Ever.

Damn skippy! Nothing sets off a set of Tactical Dreadnought Armour like some spikes. Especially if it's Cataphractii or Tartoros.

And I figure I'll just feed those overweight primaris to the Contemptor. He'll average 4 kills on the charge and 3 on each following round, while popping one with ectoplasma in the shooting phase and regaining wounds on every kill on a 5+. He can go ALL DAY.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
What are Primaris players to do? Buy Heavy Intercessors of course!


Exactly! Just in time for CSM players to get pumped about their 2 wounds, Primaris get infantry with guns that do 2D. That CAN'T be a coincidence.

2D guns AND 3W, yeah quite a "coincidence".

Oh well, I guess loyalists need all the help they can get.
On the plus side, Meltas do 3W minimum in close range. And to be honest, Heavy Intercessors will never, ever be even one-tenth as cool as Chaos Terminators. Ever.


Eh. I like the look of gravis armor far more than I like horns and utterly absurd tusks popping out of otherwise dull terminator armor.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think Terminators are far too iconic to 40K to be removed. Ok, yes, you could have said the same thing about Marines 3 years ago, but, the Primaris release hasn't produced something that replaces Terminators. Gravis armour is bulky, but it's still a Marine in there.

There's a marine in both, though. I'm completely lost at what you're trying to say here.
Both are marines in an extra bulky suit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:28:07


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I mean it's still power armour. It's got a backpack and everything. It's not this self-enclosed suit like Terminator armour.

Gravis is just yet another type of power armour.

   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

Breton wrote:
Most of us think Old Marines are going to be supplanted by Primaris in a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

I think there are some major tipoffs we could see in the Codex that either contradict or announce this.

Bjorn in a Redemptor would almost certainly confirm it.

Allowing Primaris in old-marine transports, and old marines in Primaris Transports would almost certainly refute it. While I can see GW economical enough to make the switch for Drop Pods rather than creating a second Drop Pod model, if they allow mix and match in Razorbacks, Rhinos, and Land Raiders and their Primaris versions things suddenly get a lot more interesting. If you can mix and match your HQ's and your Troops there's no push to upgrade something you prefer old/new.

What are some of the signs you'll be watching for, aside from the obvious of missing all Old Marine Datasheets.


Is Bjorn in a Redemptor?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Niiai wrote:
Breton wrote:
Most of us think Old Marines are going to be supplanted by Primaris in a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

I think there are some major tipoffs we could see in the Codex that either contradict or announce this.

Bjorn in a Redemptor would almost certainly confirm it.

Allowing Primaris in old-marine transports, and old marines in Primaris Transports would almost certainly refute it. While I can see GW economical enough to make the switch for Drop Pods rather than creating a second Drop Pod model, if they allow mix and match in Razorbacks, Rhinos, and Land Raiders and their Primaris versions things suddenly get a lot more interesting. If you can mix and match your HQ's and your Troops there's no push to upgrade something you prefer old/new.

What are some of the signs you'll be watching for, aside from the obvious of missing all Old Marine Datasheets.


Is Bjorn in a Redemptor?

No, and I don't see it happening. The Space Corgis aren't putting Grampy Bjorn in a chassis that kills the occupant.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




England

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"


standardised kit


NO

NO

NOOOOOO

WHY

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 DalekCheese wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"


standardised kit


NO

NO

NOOOOOO

WHY

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


A standardized Guard look wouldn't necessarily suck, pushing the iconic regiments to Elite/FA/HS. You'd have to re-engineer the Doctrine/tactics/keywords, but it would go a long way towards giving Guard some flavor and some variation in looks without sinking the whole army in too much cost for too many kit variations.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 DalekCheese wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"


standardised kit


NO

NO

NOOOOOO

WHY

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


Because the current guard is a a throw back to a differant time. when producing a varity of differant metal models for the guard was cheap and viable, and GW enchouraged people going to third party soruces etc. I mean look at the guard fluff, every regiment uses differant kit, every forge world makes differant patterns of STCs that are operate the same but are in fact often look completely differant. it was designed for a time when GW was cool with your going out and buying 28mm scale WW2 models and uses them as your guard. the corperate philophesy has changed since then. thus it seems likely GW will eventually start quietly moving towards a standardized kit for guard, but at the same time they're going to leave things open for people to use their old armies by saying "this is what NEW regiments have"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

Calling it now: Primaris Guardsmen with 2W, followed by a Catachan/Cadian 2W buff.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't think we'll see a oldmarine kit again, because they've pretty much covered the entire design space and the point of Primaris is to let them sell the same things over again but slightly differently.

As for what's going on for the oldmarines, I think eventually they and the primaris counterparts will grow closer to each other until the units merge.

The 2W for oldmarines and 1 heavy per unit for primaris supports this.

I could actually see them producing at least one new non-Primaris kit as a sort of 'loss leader' to encourage people - parroted by their usual white knights - that "SEE! A NEW FIRSTBORN UNIT, SURELY THIS MEANS OLDMARINES WON'T BE SQUAT'ED!" which would probably result in a surge of sales for OldMarine kits until they've cleared out plenty of inventory and/or the moulds finally breakdown and can be binned once and for all.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
Calling it now: Primaris Guardsmen with 2W, followed by a Catachan/Cadian 2W buff.


You joke, but I'd love it if every or almost every troop went to 2W and all the 1D weapons went to 2-Sided-Dice Damage. Give me durable troops. Let a guy take a round and keep fighting. Until he takes a second one to the face.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

It's going to happen. Anyone who doesn't think Primaris were meant as a replacement is being naive and ignorant. But it's not going to happen for a long, long time so nothing to really worry about IMHO.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:

Because the current guard is a a throw back to a differant time. when producing a varity of differant metal models for the guard was cheap and viable, and GW enchouraged people going to third party soruces etc. I mean look at the guard fluff, every regiment uses differant kit, every forge world makes differant patterns of STCs that are operate the same but are in fact often look completely differant. it was designed for a time when GW was cool with your going out and buying 28mm scale WW2 models and uses them as your guard. the corperate philophesy has changed since then. thus it seems likely GW will eventually start quietly moving towards a standardized kit for guard, but at the same time they're going to leave things open for people to use their old armies by saying "this is what NEW regiments have"


Back in Rogue Trader the Guard actually had a standard uniform that was issued upon the regiment being formed. Over time the uniforms would be adapted to the customs of that regiment, but at founding, at least, every Guard regiment looked the same. I don't mind this in terms of lore, because issuing equipment straight from a STC is exactly what the Imperium would do.

That being said, you can pry my metal, Perry-sculpted Guardsmen from my cold, dead hands.

Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

It would be really interesting to know if/when Sales of old marines started to plateau.

Trying to look at this from a business point of view rather than an emotional one. GW has arguably built its recent success on the back of its power armoured super men.
The majority of its mini releases would appear to slew sales towards PA equipped Imperials.

I cant imagine that GW HQ would be unaware that constant schedule of release resculpt or repackaging could lead to diminishing returns.

With my business head on I would imagine that Nottingham HQ have seen a plateau in sales and decided on a new course of action to rebuild revenue within their own product SKUs

Primaris may or may not have begun as a project to replace the existing range but I could envision a scenario where sales dictate what happens to those marines who don't cross the Rubicon.

I cant see both ranges co existing for the mid to long term. 2W marines is in my opinion a sticking plaster a transitional change.
A new plastic tac box would probably change my mind. But would they push that Primaris new release revenue that direction?




   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Mr. Burning wrote:

A new plastic tac box would probably change my mind. But would they push that Primaris new release revenue that direction?


A new plastic tac box would shock the hell out of me, unless it came along with a new GK box making it much cheaper I.e one shared body sprue, + either of two option sprues.

I feel like New kits for old marines are more likely to be Termies, Assault/VV, or a multi function drop pod (I.e. one that can do old marines, old dreads, new marines and MAYBE new Dreads). Something they’re furthest from duplicating.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

When Centurions go to Legends, the end of the Firstborn is nigh. Centurions were GW's attempt to fix Terminators before they decided on Primaris, so if Centurions are dropped GW is surely considering dropping other "redundant" units. Of all the Firstborn model line, I suspect Terminators will be the last to go.

When Primaris can ride in Rhinos, it is truly a sign of the Apocalypse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 15:43:02


It never ends well 
   
 
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