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Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I'm wondering if forbidding units to benefit from more than 1 aura at the same time would be a nice plan or not. If they changed auras to something more original than just rerolls it could lead to more tactical decisions. After all a soldier can't listen to the advice of 3 officers at the same time while firing.

"Go for his eyes with your knife, Jenkins !"
"Flank him he's less armoured this side !
"Hold your knife in a reverse-grip !"


"BY THE EMPEROR JUST LET ME FIGHT !"

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 Rolsheen wrote:
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Made in de
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They said the Auras will be updated with the respective Codizes, which is a bit funny considering the then old Auras might be much more powerful than the new ones, since they can still blob up everything they like and not just cores.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I wonder if we can expect points drops on all the units which were paying for their ability to be buffed in their points...ofc we wont. Because that was never a factor in how they are costed.


I think you're being sarcastic, but yeah, I'd say that's literally correct. The biggest problem with auras on certain offending armies was that they weren't costed as if under the effects of multiple stacked aura buffs.


Which makes sense because you can't guarantee that players would take buffing aura units in army composition. Just because a unit could be under 2 or 4 or more buffs at once doesn't mean it should be costed at the high end because then you basically remove the option of chioce. You either take the unit with all the buffs or you don't take the unit (or taking it puts you at a disadvantage).

The same is tricky when costing buff units as well, esp if you allow buffs to stack and such. Do you cost it for a whole army worth under the aura or a few units or what. It's not simple.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

I like the basic idea, we'll see how the ultimate execution goes. I think there will still be problems with rerolls, but this at least puts some limits on how they can be applied.

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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I wonder if we can expect points drops on all the units which were paying for their ability to be buffed in their points...ofc we wont. Because that was never a factor in how they are costed.


You're being sarcastic, but are literally correct. The biggest problem with auras on certain offending armies was that they weren't costed as if under the effects of multiple stacked aura buffs.

Well you can't cost things that way...it is illogical to do that. You could charge for the ability but fairly they didn't seem to be charging enough.

This fix does nothing but change the units that are going to be abusing auras.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I really like that change. Sounds really good to me

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

Well you can't cost things that way...it is illogical to do that.


That's quite literally how several armies are costed at the moment.
   
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Ambitious Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

 Xenomancers wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
How will my Archon now buff my Cult and Coven units??.....oh, wait
Well it wont be buffing your ravagers anymore - better pray the venom gets core.


Then the joke is on them, I don't own any Ravagers .....My Archons are traditionally of the slightly disappointing beatstick variety, and my Venoms are Flayed Skull

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 16:47:16


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"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

Xenomancers wrote:So much for all the play-testing...because the game is so entirely different now it's like starting over.
In what way does that mean it wasn't playtested? I'm not saying that it's perfectly balanced, but in what way does the game being very different forgo it having been playtested?

catbarf wrote:I'm not sure that Tyranids even have generic aura abilities besides Synapse. Venomthropes/Malanthropes are very specific about what they affect, and Old One Eye specifically only buffs Carnifexes.
Ah, that's true! The Swarmlord might be one of the few that has a generic Hive Fleet aura.

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Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Well you can't cost things that way...it is illogical to do that.


That's quite literally how several armies are costed at the moment.

How do you know that? Are you on the GW balance team figuring the points?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
I wonder if we can expect points drops on all the units which were paying for their ability to be buffed in their points...ofc we wont. Because that was never a factor in how they are costed.

So much for all the play-testing...because the game is so entirely different now it's like starting over.


Relax, Xeno. Marines were not struggling.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

How do you know that? Are you on the GW balance team figuring the points?


Because I can do basic math and compare results across factional lines. Tau, Eldar, even certain Chaos armies are all pointed as though theyre getting full support from various special rules.

But you know that. You're just being you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
How will my Archon now buff my Cult and Coven units??.....oh, wait
Well it wont be buffing your ravagers anymore - better pray the venom gets core.


Then the joke is on them, I don't own any Ravagers .....My Archons are traditionally of the slightly disappointing beatstick variety, and my Venoms are Flayed Skull


I'd personally lay good odds that Dedicated Transports will get Core.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 16:52:48


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They said the Auras will be updated with the respective Codizes, which is a bit funny considering the then old Auras might be much more powerful than the new ones, since they can still blob up everything they like and not just cores.


Which is why it is important to update all the marine supplements ASAP.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:So much for all the play-testing...because the game is so entirely different now it's like starting over.
In what way does that mean it wasn't playtested? I'm not saying that it's perfectly balanced, but in what way does the game being very different forgo it having been playtested?

catbarf wrote:I'm not sure that Tyranids even have generic aura abilities besides Synapse. Venomthropes/Malanthropes are very specific about what they affect, and Old One Eye specifically only buffs Carnifexes.
Ah, that's true! The Swarmlord might be one of the few that has a generic Hive Fleet aura.

All data collected in 8th edition is now useless is what I am saying. The game has changed too much.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




Not even the Swarmlord, he just moves a unit.

The only arguable army-wide effects besides Synapse and Venom/Malanhtropes is the Malanthrope's conditional rule to taste the dead enemy and give the entire army a reroll buff to the end of the battle.

Synapse being restricted to CORE units wouldn't make sense, so I think we are in clear. We have nothing, so we have nothing to lose.

Ridgerunners might be boned, though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:

Which is why it is important to update all the marine supplements ASAP.


If memory serves, there was a statement about the supplements getting a Day 1 FAQ to update things when the SM prime codex drops with all the changes. I expect we'll see this as part of that.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 iGuy91 wrote:
Hooooly crap.
That is a massive, massive meta-shaking change. Depending on what gets 'core' list comp is going to shift dramatically.

Characters also not getting their own reroll auras makes for an interesting change too.

(Also - Snickers as a Necron player who basically never got aura buffs to begin with)


You realize this is likely to affect My Will Be Done and the new Relentless March, right?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

How do you know that? Are you on the GW balance team figuring the points?


Because I can do basic math and compare results across factional lines. Tau, Eldar, even certain Chaos armies are all pointed as though theyre getting full support from various special rules.

But you know that. You're just being you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
How will my Archon now buff my Cult and Coven units??.....oh, wait
Well it wont be buffing your ravagers anymore - better pray the venom gets core.


Then the joke is on them, I don't own any Ravagers .....My Archons are traditionally of the slightly disappointing beatstick variety, and my Venoms are Flayed Skull


I'd personally lay good odds that Dedicated Transports will get Core.

Wow you can do math? What is the forumula for charging a unit for auras it might not even use? You are talking out of your butt dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Hooooly crap.
That is a massive, massive meta-shaking change. Depending on what gets 'core' list comp is going to shift dramatically.

Characters also not getting their own reroll auras makes for an interesting change too.

(Also - Snickers as a Necron player who basically never got aura buffs to begin with)


You realize this is likely to affect My Will Be Done and the new Relentless March, right?
I'm sure it will. I was excited to use these abilities on DDA or DoomScythes but it's unlikely they are core.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 16:58:57


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Numberless Necron Warrior





Crownworld Astilia

Voss wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Hooooly crap.
That is a massive, massive meta-shaking change. Depending on what gets 'core' list comp is going to shift dramatically.

Characters also not getting their own reroll auras makes for an interesting change too.

(Also - Snickers as a Necron player who basically never got aura buffs to begin with)


You realize this is likely to affect My Will Be Done and the new Relentless March, right?


Unless for some reason Warriors and Immortals aren't classed as <Core> but Lychguard and Tomb Blades are there isn't gonna be much difference to the Necron playstyle of 8th with regards to who gets selected for MWBD.

Beyond that the only source of Aura reroll the Necrons had was the reroll 1s to wound from the Lord. We'll see if the new Codex adds more rerolls to the army but as it stands not much of anything changes with Necrons with this new design philosophy.

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 Xenomancers wrote:

All data collected in 8th edition is now useless is what I am saying. The game has changed too much.


Why exactly did you think that data from 8th would be remotely applicable to 9th? Did you think data from 7th would be applicable to 8th?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wow you can do math?


Yes, I can. Otherwise I wouldnt know that, for example, a 10 point Guardian and a 5 point Guardsman are wildly disparate in cost, while having extremely similar functional abilities.

But good on you for admitting you lack basic number skills. That takes real courage.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:So much for all the play-testing...because the game is so entirely different now it's like starting over.
In what way does that mean it wasn't playtested? I'm not saying that it's perfectly balanced, but in what way does the game being very different forgo it having been playtested?

catbarf wrote:I'm not sure that Tyranids even have generic aura abilities besides Synapse. Venomthropes/Malanthropes are very specific about what they affect, and Old One Eye specifically only buffs Carnifexes.
Ah, that's true! The Swarmlord might be one of the few that has a generic Hive Fleet aura.

All data collected in 8th edition is now useless is what I am saying. The game has changed too much.


Do you think that GWs playtesting efforts for 9th were done with 8th edition rules? Or are you referring to the communities data? I really, really don't see what your point is. Every new release changes the game.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 Aaranis wrote:
I'm wondering if forbidding units to benefit from more than 1 aura at the same time would be a nice plan or not. If they changed auras to something more original than just rerolls it could lead to more tactical decisions. After all a soldier can't listen to the advice of 3 officers at the same time while firing.


This is explicitly not happening- Core units will get all auras:
WarCom Article wrote:However – and very much as intended – a nearby Core unit of Space Marines will be significantly more effective when in the presence of their Captain and/or a Lieutenant, just as they should be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:01:05


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:

All data collected in 8th edition is now useless is what I am saying. The game has changed too much.


This statement was already true.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sooooooo why shouldn't a Captain be inspiring anything shooting to begin with? Inconsistency is inconsistency.

It's stupid because it's GW showing they can't write rules. This is literally the same as every other nerfhammer thing they've done. The fact people are for it shows they have memories of goldfish.

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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
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Voss wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Hooooly crap.
That is a massive, massive meta-shaking change. Depending on what gets 'core' list comp is going to shift dramatically.

Characters also not getting their own reroll auras makes for an interesting change too.

(Also - Snickers as a Necron player who basically never got aura buffs to begin with)


You realize this is likely to affect My Will Be Done and the new Relentless March, right?


Unlikely. They only target 1 unit to begin with. My money is they don't change. We'll see.

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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Super fluffy and needed change to the game. I like it as long as they apply it with common sense.

As a Drukhari player, I hope they take a look at how our Auras work with open topped vehicles, now that they are touching this stuff... Make an Archon the Warlord it should be instead of making him hide behind huge ships to reroll gakky dice.



 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

All data collected in 8th edition is now useless is what I am saying. The game has changed too much.


This statement was already true.

No major game mechanics had changed. Combat slightly but that was mostly just wordy. Tanks can shoot into melee. You cant fall back and shoot with fly (unless you have a ability that lets you). Big changes but not that big. This aura change fundamentally changes the way the game is played for many armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sooooooo why shouldn't a Captain be inspiring anything shooting to begin with? Inconsistency is inconsistency.

It's stupid because it's GW showing they can't write rules. This is literally the same as every other nerfhammer thing they've done. The fact people are for it shows they have memories of goldfish.

Great point. Standing near a captain to shoot better was already stupid. Agreed. So why should we draw any distinction?

Moving forward...how much more should core units cost? 10% more? 20%?

If you make a change like this you must cost for the "core" ability. If you don't - it is a clear indicator of not knowing how to balance rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:08:59


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sooooooo why shouldn't a Captain be inspiring anything shooting to begin with? Inconsistency is inconsistency.

It's stupid because it's GW showing they can't write rules. This is literally the same as every other nerfhammer thing they've done. The fact people are for it shows they have memories of goldfish.


(fills out another box on the Dakka bingo card)

Why does this display an inability to write rules?

In what way are selective auras different from stratagems that target specific units?


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I do like this idea a lot but as a DE player the new DE book will have to change HUGELY otherwise its going to suck really bad for DE or make DE not ave the Core rules.

In general its a good idea and I see Chapter master style units and specialist auras (like Drazhar) not having the "Core" stipulations at all.

Archon's Aura doesn't effect units in vehicles, and its only core most likely will be Kabal which no one cares about RR'1s for them at all, its 5-10 poison shots, they have a terrible gun. This means the Archon is officially a dead model, it already have a crappy one b.c how weak it is (A Canoness is stronger, let me repeat that, a CANONESS IS BETTER)

Haemonculus/Urien Aura is key to Coven (All coven) working and that includes the vehicles, if Grots and Talos can not get the +1T and +1str aura they are effectly pointless to play, right now Custodes for the same points as Grots are everything better, literally they are just better, DE players relays on that +1T to weather the storm of massive T5-6 shooting and Talos even more so HB's are going to 2 wounds soon, and Talos wants that +1str aura so we have something other than Lances, DC, to hurt T8.

Succubus, wouldn't effect some of the worst units like Hellions and Reaevers, thats just maddening to force that on her.


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Longtime Dakkanaut




So a lot of SM gak can actually miss now?

Seems like a good change to me.

Anyone resisting this is high on their own farts. This is nothing but a good overall change for game balance.
   
 
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