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How is Abaddon different from Magnus and Mortarion being supreme commanders though?

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:
I would have though Abaddon is exactly what the detachment is for - he is the grand Warmaster of Chaos, literally the supreme commander of an entire super-faction’s forces and he’s a nearly £40 faction-locked model.

Being able to take him alongside other Chaos forces while not messing with his BLACK LEGION keyword or having other forces ‘counts as’ BL seems exactly what GW is trying to encourage

But he isn't the "supreme commander" of all csm. He's the supreme commander of the Black Legion, which includes many defectors from other legions. He can get other legions and warbands to join in his Black Crusades, but many of those don't consider him any more of a supreme commander than the non-American Allies considered Roosevelt their supreme commander during WW2. And plenty of Legionnaires from other legions have no problem telling him that to his face, please see Talos in Soul Hunter.

I don't doubt that gw will give him the Supreme Commander keyword so he can be used in this way for all the Legions, but they will be going against their own lore if they do so. And they will be relegating all the Legions to just being "Black Legion but painted different" again, and that's not the direction I personally want to see the faction to continue to be taken down. But yeah, they'll probably do it, in order to sell that £40 model.


I disagree.

While clearly only the Black Legion (and other warbands in their thrall) directly report to him, he’s generally regarded as the individual most able to cajole forces from all the different legions and various other Chaos warbands into a single force capable of prosecuting a cohesive campaign, and has done so multiple times.

Yeah the support from many of the warbands that make up his crusades will be grudging, and in a lot of cases only because he’s doing something for them, but they’re still contributing to his campaign and acting under his strategy. And that IMO is what ‘supreme commander’ means in this context and Abaddon fits it to a T.

He’s certainly much more deserving of the slot than the Daemon Primarchs who are natively allowed to fill it.

And to be frank, other than Guilliman, Vect and maybe Shadowsun there are no individuals who an entire faction’s armed forces report to. Taking such a restrictive approach to what ‘SUPREME COMMANDER’ means is rather missing the point of what it’s trying to achieve I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 18:50:56


 
   
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Right behind you.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

But he isn't the "supreme commander" of all csm. He's the supreme commander of the Black Legion, which includes many defectors from other legions. He can get other legions and warbands to join in his Black Crusades, but many of those don't consider him any more of a supreme commander than the non-American Allies considered Roosevelt their supreme commander during WW2. And plenty of Legionnaires from other legions have no problem telling him that to his face, please see Talos in Soul Hunter.

Sure, the non-American Allies might not have considered Roosevelt(the President of the United States) their 'supreme commander' during WW2...but they did consider Dwight Eisenhower(the guy whose title was literally 'Supreme Commander of Allied Expeditionary Forces') that during the campaigns in North Africa, Italy, and Europe. His overall command staff was a mixture as well, with only token Soviet representation(but they were basically doing their own thing anyways).

Being the 'supreme commander' of something does not mean that you're liked or even respected. It just means you have the authority to get something done.

I don't doubt that gw will give him the Supreme Commander keyword so he can be used in this way for all the Legions, but they will be going against their own lore if they do so. And they will be relegating all the Legions to just being "Black Legion but painted different" again, and that's not the direction I personally want to see the faction to continue to be taken down. But yeah, they'll probably do it, in order to sell that £40 model.

I mean, that would happen anyways if Black Legion had the best rules. Let's not pretend otherwise.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
How is Abaddon different from Magnus and Mortarion being supreme commanders though?


He has broader pull and influence.

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Jidmah wrote:How is Abaddon different from Magnus and Mortarion being supreme commanders though?

He isn't, in his own legion, just the same as them.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:
I would have though Abaddon is exactly what the detachment is for - he is the grand Warmaster of Chaos, literally the supreme commander of an entire super-faction’s forces and he’s a nearly £40 faction-locked model.

Being able to take him alongside other Chaos forces while not messing with his BLACK LEGION keyword or having other forces ‘counts as’ BL seems exactly what GW is trying to encourage

But he isn't the "supreme commander" of all csm. He's the supreme commander of the Black Legion, which includes many defectors from other legions. He can get other legions and warbands to join in his Black Crusades, but many of those don't consider him any more of a supreme commander than the non-American Allies considered Roosevelt their supreme commander during WW2. And plenty of Legionnaires from other legions have no problem telling him that to his face, please see Talos in Soul Hunter.

I don't doubt that gw will give him the Supreme Commander keyword so he can be used in this way for all the Legions, but they will be going against their own lore if they do so. And they will be relegating all the Legions to just being "Black Legion but painted different" again, and that's not the direction I personally want to see the faction to continue to be taken down. But yeah, they'll probably do it, in order to sell that £40 model.


I disagree.

While clearly only the Black Legion (and other warbands in their thrall) directly report to him, he’s generally regarded as the individual most able to cajole forces from all the different legions and various other Chaos warbands into a single force capable of prosecuting a cohesive campaign, and has done so multiple times.

Yeah the support from many of the warbands that make up his crusades will be grudging, and in a lot of cases only because he’s doing something for them, but they’re still contributing to his campaign and acting under his strategy. And that IMO is what ‘supreme commander’ means in this context and Abaddon fits it to a T.

He’s certainly much more deserving of the slot than the Daemon Primarchs who are natively allowed to fill it.

And to be frank, other than Guilliman, Vect and maybe Shadowsun there are no individuals who an entire faction’s armed forces report to. Taking such a restrictive approach to what ‘SUPREME COMMANDER’ means is rather missing the point of what it’s trying to achieve I think.

You're assuming that the new Supreme Command detachment rules were designed to allow taking a subfaction HQ as the supreme commander of other subfactions. I just took a quick look at the deciphered contents page pic from the Loyalist Scum codex, and it doesn't look like Gulliman is in there. That would mean he's still only in the Ultramarine supplement, and gw doesn't consider him to belong with all chapters. Maybe everyone missed him, it's possible, but it's also possible that the new Supreme Command detachment rules are only there so you can include him and other LOW type HQs without paying the 3CP for the super heavy auxiliary detachment, and so that they get faction traits. We will have to wait for the actual codex release to see.

We will just have to agree to disagree on whether Abaddon qualifies as the "supreme commander" of all csm. But I still think making him so would be a step back for the faction. The Legions shouldn't be lumped together.
   
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Right behind you.

So we're clear:
This whole discussion is centered around a keyword called Supreme Commander. It allows for a LOW type HQ which does not possess the Primarch or Daemon Primarch keywords to be taken without paying the 3CP for the SHAD and allows for faction traits.

We know that Guilliman already qualifies for this, since he has Primarch. We don't need to 'wait and see' or anything like that for him.

It just remains to be seen who will actually get the 'Supreme Commander' keyword and thus be allowed into the Supreme Command Detachments without having Primarch or Daemon Primarch.
   
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We have to "wait and see" whether or not it would be worth it to include Gulliman in an army that isn't Ultramarines. If he retains the ULTRAMARINES keyword he will cause any army made up of another chapter to lose its super doctrine. The same can be said for Abaddon if he retains the BLACK LEGION keyword and the new csm codex includes mono-legion bonuses of some kind. We don't know how the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword will work. It's possible it could be given to generic characters like chapter masters. Gw seems to be trying to make armies "look right", I don't think they want to see Magnus leading an army of Iron Warriors.

If Abaddon retains his current rules and gains the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword all he will add to a non Black Legion army is 2CP and auto pass for morale for any HERETIC ASTARTES units within 12 of him. That's fine for the supreme commander of the Black Legion, but not worth 220 points for any other legion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 20:41:38


 
   
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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Breton wrote:
The Supreme Command Detach allows Primarchs, Daemon Primarchs, and HQ's who are not LOWs but have the SUPREME COMMANDER thing. Does anyone have one already? Are they incoming with the codex release?


Yeah, I do kinda wish we had more wargear options for any nominated HQ.
ie GW just chooses 1 HQ option per faction to nail down a LOT of customisation.

Warboss for Orks ( MegaArmor, Bike, Kombi Dakka etc )
Chapter Master for Marines ( Artificer Armor, Terminator, Gravis, Primaris etc, could just be represented with different torsos )
Necron Overlord
etc

Otherwise the only non LOW, LOW would be ghazzy or ctan shards


That has nothing to do with the question at all.

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We have to "wait and see" whether or not it would be worth it to include Gulliman in an army that isn't Ultramarines. If he retains the ULTRAMARINES keyword he will cause any army made up of another chapter to lose its super doctrine. The same can be said for Abaddon if he retains the BLACK LEGION keyword and the new csm codex includes mono-legion bonuses of some kind. We don't know how the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword will work. It's possible it could be given to generic characters like chapter masters. Gw seems to be trying to make armies "look right", I don't think they want to see Magnus leading an army of Iron Warriors.
I mean Magnus can already do that since he’s a Daemon Primarch so can already go in a SCD...

Putting it on generic HQs just to give you an extra slot seems unlikely to be GW’s intent, but I’ll guess we’ll see when the first two books come out...

If Abaddon retains his current rules and gains the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword all he will add to a non Black Legion army is 2CP and auto pass for morale for any HERETIC ASTARTES units within 12 of him. That's fine for the supreme commander of the Black Legion, but not worth 220 points for any other legion.

Yeah it’s not necessarily going to be effective (how effective is Guilliman in otherwise pure guard?), but if say you play Iron Warriors but own Abaddon since the model’s awesome, it allows you to play him without having to build/paint a whole detachment of BL.

IMO GW’s intent is almost certainly not so much a pure fluff thing as a ‘let you play with all your toys’ thing (being charitable) / ‘sell more iconic (and expensive) characters’ thing (being cynical).
   
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Notably, Shadowsun as she is now doesn't provide that much benefit for non-Tau sept armies either. The Master of War rules only work on <sept> units.

I think it'll be along the lines of what Zarkov is saying: SUPREME COMMANDERs are largely going to be for armies where the named characters are spread pretty thin between subfactions (many of which have no named characters at all). That way, regardless of the sub-faction , you get to bring the cool named character your army has.

Loyalist Marines have a bunch of sub-faction named characters already so I wouldn't expect to see many/any SCs show up for them.

My real question would be how extensive they'll be. Like I see 3 Tau options between Shadowsun, Farsight, and Aun Va. Only one of those models is remotely new.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 22:11:12


 
   
 
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