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Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Well, throughout 8th a Great Unclean One could resurrect a Myphitic Blight Hauler(150pts) on a 4+ I assume it was never Faqed because the GUO is pretty expensive and so the combo never was used in large amounts.
   
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So... Space Marines get the BIKE keyword on their buggies but us Orks get the VEHICLE keyword on our bikes (deffkopta)... Awesome. :|

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Italy

My scouts have always been elites and due to the nature of that unit the SM ones always seemed odd in the troop section. Their equivalents from other codexes, like kommandos or mandrakes, aren't troops.

SM buggy without <VEHICLE> is outrageous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 11:49:15


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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

There seems to be an awful lot of focus on this Apothecary-resurrecting-ATV thing... I'll posit that if that's what you're doing, you're wasting the bike's potential, having it sat back where the Apothecary can actually reach it.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
There seems to be an awful lot of focus on this Apothecary-resurrecting-ATV thing... I'll posit that if that's what you're doing, you're wasting the bike's potential, having it sat back where the Apothecary can actually reach it.


I suppose, yea. It is just mentally gross to have a W8 model pop back up and it sort of forces that to be the best scenario for its use. 85 + 105 for a couple melta shots. You could just opt not to shoot them and let the Apothecary go to waste, too. Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...
   
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BrianDavion wrote:

scouts needed to be moved from troops.


3x5 to infinity Scout Squads the player hardly cared about for 6 Elites, and 3 Heavies needed to be removed. Or whatever Mutli-Det Skew list bieng made. Scouts themselves didn't need to be moved from troops. My standard lists were a 10 man sniper squad and 2x Tacs, or Intercessors, or Infiltrators etc for almost as long as I've been playing. The problem wasn't the scouts, it was abusing the scouts. And now I hear those commercials about them filing for bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...


Because you can probably get 50% or so more Heavy Intercessors who will have ObSec without some sort of Gotcha Strat. I mean we still have to go on a couple assumptions:

1) Heavy Intercessors will be 28 points per model based on Power Level to Points average Ratios.
2) Terminators will not plummet (or Skyrocket) in price.

If those are accurate - you can pull down about 7.5 Heavy Intercessors for the same price as 5 TH/SS Terminators. And supposedly the TH did go up in price.

Using the TH/SS blob has it's place - say Deep striking on the furthest objective, - Especially with the Teleport Redployment shenanigans they just added - but the HI as the generic approach also works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 13:10:18


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stratigo wrote:here's a hot take. The apothecary shouldn't res bikes.
I'm down for that. Or, at least, only a Biker Apothecary?

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
YES!
Vindicator siege shields exist again after having an edition off, and if you take one now they get +1 to saves against ranged weapons.


Heh, yeah, somewhere deep within the Eye of Terror the Iron Warriors just found something to finally be happy about. Dig it.

So one change that interests me is the one to weapons that used to have the Armourbane rule, e.g. chainfists and dreadnought chainfists. Both got a damage buff: a swingy one against everything that isn't a vehicle and a solid one against vehicles, with chainfists going for D2 to Dd3 against non vehicles and D3 against vehicles, and dreadnought chainfists going from D4 to D2d3 against non vehicles and D6 against vehicles. So a possible 50% increase against non vehicles and a solid 50% increase against vehicles. Think that will be applied to everything that used to have the Armourbane rule? Like maybe a VERY BIG GUN on a VERY BIG TANK available to marines of both the boring and the spiky varieties?
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm down for that. Or, at least, only a Biker Apothecary?


I'm still annoyed they can't heal Guilliman. A team of the guys works on him at least once every book, but not once on the table top....

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

scouts needed to be moved from troops.


3x5 to infinity Scout Squads the player hardly cared about for 6 Elites, and 3 Heavies needed to be removed. Or whatever Mutli-Det Skew list bieng made. Scouts themselves didn't need to be moved from troops. My standard lists were a 10 man sniper squad and 2x Tacs, or Intercessors, or Infiltrators etc for almost as long as I've been playing. The problem wasn't the scouts, it was abusing the scouts. And now I hear those commercials about them filing for bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...


Because you can probably get 50% or so more Heavy Intercessors who will have ObSec without some sort of Gotcha Strat. I mean we still have to go on a couple assumptions:

1) Heavy Intercessors will be 28 points per model based on Power Level to Points average Ratios.
2) Terminators will not plummet (or Skyrocket) in price.

If those are accurate - you can pull down about 7.5 Heavy Intercessors for the same price as 5 TH/SS Terminators. And supposedly the TH did go up in price.

Using the TH/SS blob has it's place - say Deep striking on the furthest objective, - Especially with the Teleport Redployment shenanigans they just added - but the HI as the generic approach also works.


Heavy intercessors are 190 points for 5. FWIW.

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 Denegaar wrote:
I don't know how expensive an Attack Bike is, but it feels pretty stupid for the Apothecary to resurrect a full 85pt model for 1CP.

Maybe if they come back with D3 wounds remaining...

I'm making a mirror with my army, and it is almost like ressurrecting a full Talos for 1CP. It doesn't seem fair for your opponent.

If you take the chief appocothory it's actually 0CP per resurrection.
And he can heal aswell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nym wrote:
So... Space Marines get the BIKE keyword on their buggies but us Orks get the VEHICLE keyword on our bikes (deffkopta)... Awesome. :|

Haven't seen the datasheet but I thought from what was posted it actually has both because you know primaria chad got to have the best of both worlds.

Because apparently proof reading ia beyond GW's.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 14:33:04


 
   
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Spoiler:
Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

scouts needed to be moved from troops.


3x5 to infinity Scout Squads the player hardly cared about for 6 Elites, and 3 Heavies needed to be removed. Or whatever Mutli-Det Skew list bieng made. Scouts themselves didn't need to be moved from troops. My standard lists were a 10 man sniper squad and 2x Tacs, or Intercessors, or Infiltrators etc for almost as long as I've been playing. The problem wasn't the scouts, it was abusing the scouts. And now I hear those commercials about them filing for bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...


Because you can probably get 50% or so more Heavy Intercessors who will have ObSec without some sort of Gotcha Strat. I mean we still have to go on a couple assumptions:

1) Heavy Intercessors will be 28 points per model based on Power Level to Points average Ratios.
2) Terminators will not plummet (or Skyrocket) in price.

If those are accurate - you can pull down about 7.5 Heavy Intercessors for the same price as 5 TH/SS Terminators. And supposedly the TH did go up in price.

Using the TH/SS blob has it's place - say Deep striking on the furthest objective, - Especially with the Teleport Redployment shenanigans they just added - but the HI as the generic approach also works.


A quick note that Assault Termies are 33 +10 for TH.

   
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Stevenage, UK

Ice_can wrote:
Haven't seen the datasheet but I thought from what was posted it actually has both because you know primaria chad got to have the best of both worlds.
Because apparently proof reading ia beyond GW's.

...ah, the irony.
I do agree with the ATV becoming the "new" attack bike, and having rules to suit that.
What I disagree with, is the attack bike having ever strayed from being a vehicle in the first place...

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 Super Ready wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Haven't seen the datasheet but I thought from what was posted it actually has both because you know primaria chad got to have the best of both worlds.
Because apparently proof reading ia beyond GW's.

...ah, the irony.
I do agree with the ATV becoming the "new" attack bike, and having rules to suit that.
What I disagree with, is the attack bike having ever strayed from being a vehicle in the first place...

Eh I'm posting in a forum not print media for money though.
But yeah irony strikes again.

It's blatantly obvious its a vehical I suspect it's probably been given bike because of some ravenwing or such rules probably requiring bike keyword but they missed that also allowed them to be resurrected at full wounds for 0CP.
Though it does make the chief appocothory stupidly cheap 25 points for saving 4 CP which nets you 4x85 points aka 340 points of new models, even on eradicators he nets 160 points in new models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 15:04:05


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

scouts needed to be moved from troops.


3x5 to infinity Scout Squads the player hardly cared about for 6 Elites, and 3 Heavies needed to be removed. Or whatever Mutli-Det Skew list bieng made. Scouts themselves didn't need to be moved from troops. My standard lists were a 10 man sniper squad and 2x Tacs, or Intercessors, or Infiltrators etc for almost as long as I've been playing. The problem wasn't the scouts, it was abusing the scouts. And now I hear those commercials about them filing for bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...


Because you can probably get 50% or so more Heavy Intercessors who will have ObSec without some sort of Gotcha Strat. I mean we still have to go on a couple assumptions:

1) Heavy Intercessors will be 28 points per model based on Power Level to Points average Ratios.
2) Terminators will not plummet (or Skyrocket) in price.

If those are accurate - you can pull down about 7.5 Heavy Intercessors for the same price as 5 TH/SS Terminators. And supposedly the TH did go up in price.

Using the TH/SS blob has it's place - say Deep striking on the furthest objective, - Especially with the Teleport Redployment shenanigans they just added - but the HI as the generic approach also works.


A quick note that Assault Termies are 33 +10 for TH.

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 15:18:52


 
   
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 Weazel wrote:

Heavy intercessors are 190 points for 5. FWIW.

140 base
The majority (4 pages) of the marine points went up in rumour thread last night, Heavy Intercessors are 28ppm, +10 for a heavy bolter variant. So a 5 man squad with upgrade would be 150

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be

Default gear is universally included in the base cost.

Lightning claw costs are weird in this book. A single LC is +3 for a vanguard or company vet, +5 for sternguard, +5 for a tactical (sergeant), but for a captain or lieutenant, they're +5 for a single OR a pair.
I presume it has something to do with the gear they're replacing.

If a weapon or gear doesn't appear in the units point list, it explicitly costs nothing, so apparently storm shields are free for TH/SS terminators. (Or baked into the cost of the TH, somehow. At least for that unit, since they definitely cost points on characters)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 15:29:01


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be

It says that you only need to pay for upgrades if they have a listed point cost in the entry. So the claws are included in the 33 points.

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 Crimson wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be

It says that you only need to pay for upgrades if they have a listed point cost in the entry. So the claws are included in the 33 points.

Ok, so if a 3 wound T4, 2+, 5++ body with deep strike is worth 33 PPM with two lightning claws what can we extrapolate the price of the same body with a combi-bolter and a chainaxe to be?
   
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I really don't think it should be free. It should have been something like "Roll a 4+ and you can refund it" or something.

I really don't think SM should have any sort of resurrection mechanics though.

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

scouts needed to be moved from troops.


3x5 to infinity Scout Squads the player hardly cared about for 6 Elites, and 3 Heavies needed to be removed. Or whatever Mutli-Det Skew list bieng made. Scouts themselves didn't need to be moved from troops. My standard lists were a 10 man sniper squad and 2x Tacs, or Intercessors, or Infiltrators etc for almost as long as I've been playing. The problem wasn't the scouts, it was abusing the scouts. And now I hear those commercials about them filing for bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Big brain might be Heavy Intercessors on an objective.

Or, you know, a blob of storm shield terminators, dunno why everyone is fixated on far less durable primaris units still...


Because you can probably get 50% or so more Heavy Intercessors who will have ObSec without some sort of Gotcha Strat. I mean we still have to go on a couple assumptions:

1) Heavy Intercessors will be 28 points per model based on Power Level to Points average Ratios.
2) Terminators will not plummet (or Skyrocket) in price.

If those are accurate - you can pull down about 7.5 Heavy Intercessors for the same price as 5 TH/SS Terminators. And supposedly the TH did go up in price.

Using the TH/SS blob has it's place - say Deep striking on the furthest objective, - Especially with the Teleport Redployment shenanigans they just added - but the HI as the generic approach also works.


A quick note that Assault Termies are 33 +10 for TH.

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be


they way they did it is both much more legible, especially for marines and their 100000000 options, and more adjustable. You don't have to do this weird "Plasma guns are 10 points except for scions where they are 15" thing any more on a separate chart, all the points costs are baked into the options a unit takes, and since GW is dedicated to eliminating conversions and diverse weapon lists ANYWAYS, may as well have this as a benefit.
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like how Centurions were singled out.

Do their arms ever get tired swinging that pendulum?

well of course they were getting a nerf.....they just became available for Dark Angels.


I'm bummed they didn't get CORE and also lost Stable Platform (Seriously, bikes are stable but Centurions aren't? How the [censored] does that make any sense?), but the point difference between Hurricane Bolters and Centurion Missile Launchers means I care a lot less than I might and if I'm Reserve Deploying Assault Cents I'll have less incentive to babysit them with a buffing character. They didn't need missing out on the keywords on top of a points increase thought.

Did anyone else catch that Lightning Claws are now an extra attack per claw instead of for the pair? That gets a lot closer to even with a Power Fist per point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 15:56:56


   
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 Super Ready wrote:
There seems to be an awful lot of focus on this Apothecary-resurrecting-ATV thing... I'll posit that if that's what you're doing, you're wasting the bike's potential, having it sat back where the Apothecary can actually reach it.


Ravenwing Apothecary, duh.

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Honestly if people want to take the primariocart derp bikes and apothecaries I'd much rather they do that than take eradicators.

Overall the codex looks pretty good balance wise, with the conspicuous absence of sense when it comes to eradicators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 17:34:08


 
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arguably, what GW want is for tournament lists to be reflective of what "fluffy" lists should look like, and I'm all for that.

If the "good" Space Marine army is an army featuring as few power armoured Space Marines as possible, then that's an issue.


The problem is that for some armies (CSM) they want to punish players for taking unfluffy units while also not making their fluffy units good. GW thinks it's some armies' job to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primario kart is a new model they want to sell a lot of, these "oversights" are by design.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 17:43:17


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ugh, I hate how they did the points in the codex. So does that 33 points include the lightning claws? They're not listed in the prices. If so, and if lightning claws are still 5 points apiece, does that mean the new 3 wound terminators are 23 PPM base? Just trying to figure out what the price for three wounds terminators of the spikey variety. will be


Yea pretty much. It also looks like a lot of gear is costed bespoke to some units.

Servitors pay 5 for HBs. VV pay 3 for Claws / 8 for PF - basically a 2 point discount for the chainsword/pistol, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ok, so if a 3 wound T4, 2+, 5++ body with deep strike is worth 33 PPM with two lightning claws what can we extrapolate the price of the same body with a combi-bolter and a chainaxe to be?


Storm Bolters on some other units are weirdly expensive 3 points on SG / 5 on vehicles. A chainaxe will probably be 2 or 3. I'd bet 28 points for that setup barring a spike tax.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 17:53:54


   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arguably, what GW want is for tournament lists to be reflective of what "fluffy" lists should look like, and I'm all for that.

If the "good" Space Marine army is an army featuring as few power armoured Space Marines as possible, then that's an issue.


The problem is that for some armies (CSM) they want to punish players for taking unfluffy units while also not making their fluffy units good. GW thinks it's some armies' job to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primario kart is a new model they want to sell a lot of, these "oversights" are by design.


Really? Then why are the tanks and new speeder so mediocre and the executioner and impulsor so much worse and the new monolith saddled with such silly restrictions? Is it because 'new models OP cause money' is a stupid take that's never been reflective of GW's 'throw darts at a wall in the dark' approach to putting new models on the power curve?

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I'm gonna get the new mario cart just because it is so damn ugly.

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
stratigo wrote:here's a hot take. The apothecary shouldn't res bikes.
I'm down for that. Or, at least, only a Biker Apothecary?


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ERJAK wrote:

Really? Then why are the tanks and new speeder so mediocre and the executioner and impulsor so much worse and the new monolith saddled with such silly restrictions? Is it because 'new models OP cause money' is a stupid take that's never been reflective of GW's 'throw darts at a wall in the dark' approach to putting new models on the power curve?


Yeah, 'New Models= OP' definitely doesn't fly with these new releases.

A lot of the infantry [bar eradicators] seem OK, but serious mathhammer work needs to be done to show that they're even marginally better than existing units. There's way too many with roles that overlap with other units (even for the necrons- the ophydians have to fight for a spot with skorpekhs, wraiths and even praetorians).
Bladeguard are good, but they're not clearly better than terminators good (which actually isn't that high a bar), and there a bunch of other options that need to be looked at by comparison (vanguard vets with storm shield and Power [anything] are 26 to 35 points, with 35 being thunder hammer and stormshield, same as the 35 points for the blade guard). They don't actually stand out.

The vehicles... are just kind of indifferent.
Monolith is ungodly expensive, and costs CP, and doesn't benefit from jack.
The anti tank gladiator is the cheapest one, but pays through the nose for its two worthwhile shots.

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