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 ArcaneHorror wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
what I find funny is that statistically speaking, the fluff says that the Astartes aren't even the best. The Thunder Warriors were FAR superior even to the Astartes. Only the Custodes were capable of beating them in combat. It wasn't until he created the Primarchs that the Astartes started coming into their own. Do I have the fluff even close on that? (Going of Lexicanum/memory here)

The Thunder Warriors were bigger and stronger, but they were not built for space combat and their bodies often broke down relatively rapidly, leading to either insanity and/or deformities and death.

The star that burns twice as bright burns half as long. Astartes traded the raw power the Thunder Warriors had for biological (effective) immortality.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity"

Wait was your assessment of the imperium prior to the arrival to Guilliman that they were "on track to a second golden age of humanity?"

Have we been reading about the same setting for the last 7 editions? The imperium has always been a rotting corpse beset on all sides.

Well now one side has a "shinig golden second future" and the other side, well is on the part of the crack that got gaked on.

The original Astartes have 10,000 years of galaxy to play in, pseudo-historically-speaking. The Primaris have about 1,000 from the Battle of Cadia to the end of M42.

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity"

Wait was your assessment of the imperium prior to the arrival to Guilliman that they were "on track to a second golden age of humanity?"

Have we been reading about the same setting for the last 7 editions? The imperium has always been a rotting corpse beset on all sides.

I was talking about Great Crusade era humanity, before the Horus Humbug. Not the stagnation caused by Horus' Civil War. That was pretty clear from the last line of what you quoted.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity"

Wait was your assessment of the imperium prior to the arrival to Guilliman that they were "on track to a second golden age of humanity?"

Have we been reading about the same setting for the last 7 editions? The imperium has always been a rotting corpse beset on all sides.

I was talking about Great Crusade era humanity, before the Horus Humbug. Not the stagnation caused by Horus' Civil War. That was pretty clear from the last line of what you quoted.

I read "he" as "Guilliman" because Humbug is a pretty much meaningless term for me. Apologies.

Nurglitch wrote:
The original Astartes have 10,000 years of galaxy to play in, pseudo-historically-speaking. The Primaris have about 1,000 from the Battle of Cadia to the end of M42.

100-ish. 120 or so. Cadia to the end of Indomitus crusade is about a century, then a bit of Plague nonsense in Ultramar (and they've backed off from the end of Indomitus). Nothing has covered up to even 41200, let alone 42000.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
I personally think it's stupid to moan an' bitch about the Primaris because they surpass the original Marines the Emperor created. Because as far as I know, the original Astartes were sort of like beta-version of Astartes. And eventually even in 30k era they were eventually going to introduce Primaris.

As for how Cawl surpassing the genious Empz in making a better Astartes design? Well he had 10000 years as opposed to Empz's two centuries. And there's still the superior Custodes that no one has matched. I get that understanding of technology, etc... has dwindled from 30k era to 40k era, but does it always have to be so grim derp level that absolutely nothing new and better gets done in 10000 fuсking years. It's preposterous that it would be pure downhill for that long a time for an Imperium of millions of worlds were no innovation would happen. It's just not realistic.

The problem for many of us though is that, for a *long* time (I'm going to say early 1990s, when the background solidified into it's previous form) there was nothing about Primaris, Marines being 'first born' or anything else.

That background has remained pretty set for almost 30 years. Laughably so to some extent, because no matter what 'special campaigns' were run by GW (Ichar 4, the Eye of Terror campaign - which was solidly won by the anti-imperium forces) that background refused to budge. But, that was the way it was.

Now something new comes along and 'this is Cawl by the way, lol' and suddenly it's like that previous 30 years doesn't matter at all.

I don't particularly like the new background, I think the introduction of the Primaris, along with loyalist Primarchs coming back and the Imperium suddenly kicking ass has fundamentally changed the core aspect of what 40k was meant to be about - which was the death of heroes and the loss of hope in a universe that doesn't give a damn. But, aside from that, I can completely understand why there is resistance to some of these new concepts and ideas, because they completely over-turn that 30 years of background and the bedrock that some of us have read about and enjoyed for most of our adult lives.

So - that's my problem with it mostly, rather than like you say it not being realistic - which has never really been a concern of this fictional universe.

 Pacific wrote:

The problem for many of us though is that, for a *long* time (I'm going to say early 1990s, when the background solidified into it's previous form) there was nothing about Primaris, Marines being 'first born' or anything else.

That background has remained pretty set for almost 30 years. Laughably so to some extent, because no matter what 'special campaigns' were run by GW (Ichar 4, the Eye of Terror campaign - which was solidly won by the anti-imperium forces) that background refused to budge. But, that was the way it was.

Now something new comes along and 'this is Cawl by the way, lol' and suddenly it's like that previous 30 years doesn't matter at all.

I don't particularly like the new background, I think the introduction of the Primaris, along with loyalist Primarchs coming back and the Imperium suddenly kicking ass has fundamentally changed the core aspect of what 40k was meant to be about - which was the death of heroes and the loss of hope in a universe that doesn't give a damn. But, aside from that, I can completely understand why there is resistance to some of these new concepts and ideas, because they completely over-turn that 30 years of background and the bedrock that some of us have read about and enjoyed for most of our adult lives.

So - that's my problem with it mostly, rather than like you say it not being realistic - which has never really been a concern of this fictional universe.

This is totally how I feel. What I loved about 40K was the fact mankind had already lost. Their empire was just so huge it is taking tens of thousands of years for it to completely crumble. There was no hope of victory. Now, there are primarchs returning and new and even more powerful space marines to wage the Emperor's battles. I was talking to a friend about my opinion on this, and his response was that Imperium Nihilus is totally cut off and half of the empire is basically gone. I don't buy into that being that bad in the lore because now it is all about launching a crusade to win all of that back. Without a primarch and primaris marines the Imperium Nihilus would have been a big development, but now it is just a stage for them to win massive battles upon and inspire hope in the Imperium. It was better when the empire was shrinking from threats on all fronts, inside and out, chaos and xenos...

This isn't really on topic(and I could go on for a long time about this), but suffice it to say I really do not like the new lore around primaris for a lot of reasons. The fact that they cannot use old tactics or gear from "first born" marines is just another layer on that cake of disappointment.

the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Maybe some people see the Imperium working on conquering half of the galaxy as progress, even though that's the half they just lost...

 Tiennos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Maybe some people see the Imperium working on conquering half of the galaxy as progress, even though that's the half they just lost...

They've always been working on that. The only difference is Primaris exist, the galaxy is cut in half, and a bunch of salty neckbeards are upset about item #1

I don't think the things are changed in better for the Empire: the Emperor is dying, the Golden Throne is falling apart, the Eldars can became one of the greatest menace for the human race (if the Ynnari will be able to succeed in their purpose to defeat Slaneesh and rebuilt the Aeldari civilization), the Cicatrix Maledictum is a menace by large more vast than the Eye of Terror, so the Empire need much more troops to protect itself and because of that there is the concrete danger that the Imperium Nihilum will be disintegrated in various domains, because the Empire couldn't have enough men to fight contemporaneously along all the Great Rift and against the various planetary lords, who will want create their own kingdoms at the Empire's expenses. Moreover there are all the other xeno races ready to take advantage of this situation: the Orks, the Tau, the Necrons and the Tyranids, so in this scenario the resurrection of Reboot Gilligan and the arrive of the primaris space marines (with their equipment and tactics) are only a new last hope of a rotting corpse who doesn't accept its decay.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Maybe some people see the Imperium working on conquering half of the galaxy as progress, even though that's the half they just lost...

They've always been working on that. The only difference is Primaris exist, the galaxy is cut in half, and a bunch of salty neckbeards are upset about item #1

Preeeeeeetty much.

Yep sorry for being a salty neckbeard haha.

It's interesting I suppose there comes a point where either you leave the background or the background leaves you. I have read of it happening to other people that are really into fictional universes, everything from the Marvel Comics through to Star Wars and Star Trek. And I guess now this has happened for me, and I think others, with 40k.

For me it's what the new Primaris and other swanky new toys for SM and the Imperium represent and that they are the antithesis of that core concept of what 'made' the universe. 40k was always meant to be grim not because it there are a lot of nasty folk around and a lot of bloodshed, but because there was a complete absence of hope. Humanity had its shot at greatness with the Crusade and they blew it. The Emperor, the architect of that grand plan, is a living corpse on a throne and his sons ripped themselves to pieces ten thousand years before. Now they are gone, just legends, and all that is left is a sorry remnant of that. The marines are a remnant of their former selves, split into smaller chapters because they can't be trusted, using hand-me-down wargear, the maintenance of which has reverted to a sort of quasi-religion because the techs don't understand it and it's heresy to change it. But, they're fighting on, warriors that are doomed to die unremembered, in a crumbling empire in a galaxy that really doesn't care about them. But they are fighting on and that is the heroic, stoic aspect of it and I think what was so endearing about the setting.

So that's it for me really. You can disagree with me not liking the direction the new background has gone in (and I understand to an extent that things have to change, especially when the background is there for a miniature modelling company) but I don't think it's fair to denigrate anyone that points out exactly what the last few years of change have meant. 40k background has meant an awful lot, and I'm sad (in my mind) to see it go.

Obviously you are right about the original focus of the setting, because we can say the same thing about every other spieces: the Eldars and the Necrons are fighting to postpone their extinction, while the Squats and the Abhumans seem already extinguished and all in this absence of hopes, what are the only factions which don't seem share the same grim destiny? The Tyranids, the Orks and the Chaos…
Maybe we can disagree about the fact the focus is really changed (I already explained why I think it is only an apparently change), but I don't think someone really wanted denigrate you; surely I didn't.

Who's to say Guilliman's efforts will get anywhere? Fixing the Imperium isn't an easy task and slightly better soldiers with slightly better weapons aren't going to make a huge difference here.

To compare to real world history, the Imperium has always reminded me of the state of Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. People have dreamed of recreating it ever since it fell. Some, like Charlemagne, came close but in the end every attempt has failed as those replacement empires crumbled.
Or you can compare the IoM to the Eastern Roman Empire, which held on for a thousand years and at some points recovered large parts of the old Empire. At those times, it looked like it was unstoppable, but in the end it was chipped away bit by bit, no matter how much it reconquered.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

Did you forget about the Emperor when how made that statement because the Imperium seems to rally around his cause pretty often...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

Did you forget about the Emperor when how made that statement because the Imperium seems to rally around his cause pretty often...

That is exactly the point. The best thing that the Imperium has to rally behind is a rotting corpse that just sits there. When your leader is already dead and there is no one to take their place then it means you probably don't have any real hope left.

Why is the Imperium so totally fatalistic? I get the "grim dark" but still lay off the "We're DOOMED!!!" stuff for one single generation? We aren't even the most at risk species. The squats are pretty much extinct, the Eldar and Drukari are basically extinct, the Tau are in line to get munched on by bugs, and the Orks are busy holding back a Hive Fleet of their own. But somehow Humanity is always doomed?

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

It was never that the 'great heroes are dead.' It was that 'great heroes' don't matter. Everyone dies alone and unremembered.

I feel like Games Workshop would ideally like to only have Primaris Space Marines, but after the backlash they received from the Warhammer Fantasy -> Age of Sigmar transition, they probably didn't want to experience the same sort of backlash. Especially as almost everyone has a space marine army.

Logically isn't really applicable in this context for lore, as the units are only every going to be equipped with the weapons the kits come with, no matter how easily a tactical marine could handle a Bolt Rifle, or not. Just not going to happen, as those legacy kits will never be updated.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Well abbadon seems to have opened hug warm rifts across the whole galaxy which would have proved your point except just as the imperiums enemy was really gaining ground that’s when the primaris show up out of now where to save xmas and for all intent and purposes the threat has gone.

I think the attention necrons are getting is good and help create the sense of a big bad in the universe but the mistake GW made with the greate rift was only using it to uplift marines with the primaris lines. The should have given chaos the same treatment.

I have also suspected for a while now that primaris and the returning primach(s) are deigned to appeal to the marvel universe generation. Not grim dark but overcoming all odds and looking awesome while you do it.

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Well abbadon seems to have opened hug warm rifts across the whole galaxy which would have proved your point except just as the imperiums enemy was really gaining ground that’s when the primaris show up out of now where to save xmas and for all intent and purposes the threat has gone.

No, it isn't. Primaris are allowing the southern half of the Imperium fight against losing yet more ground, but its still a major slog. Long safe bastions (like Ultramar) are being threatened and in some cases destroyed, or losing worlds they once protected. What's going on in the galactic north is still largely unknown, beyond the BA and _some_ of their successors being rescued at the last minute and provided with reinforcements.

Actually read the fluff. The Indomitus crusade is essentially reinforcing the failing defenses of the Imperium Sanctus. Imperium Nihilius is basically written off.

Go read page 68 to 73 in the big rule book (half of it is pictures, so its even shorter than it sounds):
"To the Adeptus Terra, the worlds lost beyond the rift may as well have ceased to exist, along with the reinforcements, resources and intelligence they supplied."

"Even the greatest individuals can do little to change the course of matters at this point, mired in darkness and uncertainty, they can only do their best to drive back the most dire of threats as they appear, and to hold the Emperor's realm together under the ever-increasing pressure."

Indomitus crusade:
"...intended to prevent the final collapse of the Imperium"
"...begin reinforcing the Imperium Sanctus one world at a time"

The Age of Witches bit (72-73) is just all sorts of fun, with wrack, ruin, civil war and even Exterminatus used on Imperial worlds that fell to the craziness.

No one 'saved christmas' and none of the many threats are even vaguely in the category of 'gone.'

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

Well abbadon seems to have opened hug warm rifts across the whole galaxy which would have proved your point except just as the imperiums enemy was really gaining ground that’s when the primaris show up out of now where to save xmas and for all intent and purposes the threat has gone.

No, it isn't. Primaris are allowing the southern half of the Imperium fight against losing yet more ground, but its still a major slog. Long safe bastions (like Ultramar) are being threatened and in some cases destroyed, or losing worlds they once protected. What's going on in the galactic north is still largely unknown, beyond the BA and _some_ of their successors being rescued at the last minute and provided with reinforcements.

Actually read the fluff. The Indomitus crusade is essentially reinforcing the failing defenses of the Imperium Sanctus. Imperium Nihilius is basically written off.

Go read page 68 to 73 in the big rule book (half of it is pictures, so its even shorter than it sounds):
"To the Adeptus Terra, the worlds lost beyond the rift may as well have ceased to exist, along with the reinforcements, resources and intelligence they supplied."

"Even the greatest individuals can do little to change the course of matters at this point, mired in darkness and uncertainty, they can only do their best to drive back the most dire of threats as they appear, and to hold the Emperor's realm together under the ever-increasing pressure."

Indomitus crusade:
"...intended to prevent the final collapse of the Imperium"
"...begin reinforcing the Imperium Sanctus one world at a time"

The Age of Witches bit (72-73) is just all sorts of fun, with wrack, ruin, civil war and even Exterminatus used on Imperial worlds that fell to the craziness.

No one 'saved christmas' and none of the many threats are even vaguely in the category of 'gone.'

apparently the "True" 40k is supposed to be "and then the Imperium lost, and then they lost again!"

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

It was never that the 'great heroes are dead.' It was that 'great heroes' don't matter. Everyone dies alone and unremembered.

Disagree, the "great hero" Primarchs were remembered. Guilliman was a shrine that people made pilgrimages to.

Either way, Guilliman coming back goes against the grain. He's A: Not dead, and B: Matters a lot to the setting now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Imperium ISN'T "suddenly kicking ass" they're still losing more ground then they're gaining. people need to read the data themselves and stop relying on 1d4chan memes for their information

That doesn't change the general gist of the statement. Never before has there been this central figure to rally behind, and that was kinda the point.

A setting in which the "great heroes are dead" is marred by the sudden return of one of those heroes.

It was never that the 'great heroes are dead.' It was that 'great heroes' don't matter. Everyone dies alone and unremembered.

Disagree, the "great hero" Primarchs were remembered. Guilliman was a shrine that people made pilgrimages to.

Not originally. Guilliman doesn't come into 40K for quite a while. Even the concept of primarchs takes a while to be introduced [In Realm of Chaos I, Horus is just 'a general,' the finest military commander of the time, and that's why he became Warmaster, and given 5 Chapters under his direct command] and Roboute isn't even one of the handful that get named in RoC volume 2. The ultramarines themselves have to be revisited and changed to be made a first founding chapter at all.

Russ is the only 'primarch' introduced in Rogue Trader, and he's just an Marine Commander, born in M32, and appointed commander of the world Lucan. The sample space marine fortress buried in the middle of the book mentions he's the founder of the space wolves, but also says he's a pilot of the spacecraft 'Medusa,' which hangs in their great hall. And died in the battle of 'Rising Fell,' whatever that is. The concept of Primarch just isn't there and the transition to it is just a sudden jump years later. The original Russ wasn't even born when the Heresy happens, and isn't even vaguely recognizable as Wolfy McWolf-face. He's got gills, for one thing, and apparently drove spaceships around.

The 'whatever happens, you will not be missed' was a big part of the 40k setting. Even heroes were transitory and replaced, and usually forgotten. It was part of the point, and there lots of quotes in the book to reinforce that.
"For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die alone, unsung and unremembered"
"Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the time he is noticed he is gone forever. A retinal after-image that fades and is obscured by newer, brighter lights"
"As all men must thank progenitors obscured by the past, so we must endure the present that those who come after may continue the greater work"

Lost and forgotten is one of the primary themes of the setting.

I think we can all agree RT Lore isn't really applicable to modern 40k. Even most of the 2nd edition stuff doesn't really fly anymore. The lore was solidified in 3rd edition.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Why is the Imperium so totally fatalistic? I get the "grim dark" but still lay off the "We're DOOMED!!!" stuff for one single generation? We aren't even the most at risk species. The squats are pretty much extinct, the Eldar and Drukari are basically extinct, the Tau are in line to get munched on by bugs, and the Orks are busy holding back a Hive Fleet of their own. But somehow Humanity is always doomed?

Well, for the average person life sucks ass. You're life is short, you're worked to the bone and worth next to nothing. There is the constant chance of sudden, horrible death in a hostile universe surrounded by your own equally hostile species who may kill you and everyone you know simply because a) their gods said so b) some ancient book said so c) because they're gakking insane.

So pretty much it's current day but without anything good on Netflix and you may be executed for looking at cute cat videos.

(Heart goes out to France right now. Not exactly what's needed while the world is in lockdown)