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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.


Ah - not having the CSM book, I thought they were someone who helped Daemons possess other CSMs, not something to do with Daemon Engines - my bad.

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 Dysartes wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.


Ah - not having the CSM book, I thought they were someone who helped Daemons possess other CSMs, not something to do with Daemon Engines - my bad.


Both actually - shadow spear is essentially a Master of Possession showing off all his creations.

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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.


It would require a new datasheet currently. But the codex could surprise us and add back in many missing unit options.

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In reality the best way to handle Death Guard is to make DR on a 6+, and their Legion Trait either gives a 6+++ or adds 1 to the value of such a rule existing. Then they can get a second part that works better than whatever garbage Advance gives them. I've wanted to try and keep it but with vehicles now ignoring those penalties it can be reworked into something better.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Death Guard should never have been a separate book to begin with.

The Mark of Nurgle should provide stat changes/special rules which turn any model which has it into a Plague Marine, and the to make a Death Guard army, you choose thematically appropriate units, and give them all the appropriate Mark.
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.

Oh yeah, that's some bs imo.

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 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.

Oh yeah, that's some bs imo.


Havoc kit is nowhere near that bad - it has 2x lascannon, 2x missile, 2x heavy bolter, 2x autocannon, and 1x reaper cannon. Terminator kit is far worse

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.


The havoc kit has two of each heavy weapon, including the associated arms / ammo belts / tubes / backpack overlay.

The ONLY exception to this is the Reaper Chain Cannon. Which I understand to be the most powerful weapon in the kit.

Source: I've cut up three havoc kits this month alone as bits to sell. I've got excess baggies of the heavy weapons & backpacks stowed away.

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Havoksa have 2 of each weapon actually. except for the chain gun which yes they only have 1 of each. you saw focus on the only one chaingun when the kit came out because that gun was by the math the best weapon, and it was also the newest one. thus it was what people needed the most

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alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.

While I'm all for complaining about GW not putting options in kits, with Havoks (and Devastators), putting four of each heavy weapon in a five man box would be pretty absurd.
   
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 Lord Damocles wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.

While I'm all for complaining about GW not putting options in kits, with Havoks (and Devastators), putting four of each heavy weapon in a five man box would be pretty absurd.

Well Havocs are supposed to take multiple weapons. I like the unit crunch design but not the kit's for options. If it had four of at least three of the weapons I wouldn't complain.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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In honesty I was thinking specific models from the CSM which fit the DG theme - a mid to close range army. CSM have things like Maulerfiends for example as well as those Venom Crawlers. It could be considered likened to DG the same way Helbrutes or Defilers are.

I get Havocs are outside the theme these days but there’s also other synergies that could also be included such as various Nurgle Daemons (remember Khorne Daemonkin?).

I just feel the army could be expanded greatly with little effort, and thematically accurate using existing models in the range.
   
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Humble82 wrote:
In honesty I was thinking specific models from the CSM which fit the DG theme - a mid to close range army. CSM have things like Maulerfiends for example as well as those Venom Crawlers. It could be considered likened to DG the same way Helbrutes or Defilers are.

I get Havocs are outside the theme these days but there’s also other synergies that could also be included such as various Nurgle Daemons (remember Khorne Daemonkin?).

I just feel the army could be expanded greatly with little effort, and thematically accurate using existing models in the range.

Those too dense here are under the impression if it isn't exactly in line with the 3.5th version with arbitrary restrictions it isn't Death Guard. The Legion Supplement of 7th perfectly captured what was wanted, albeit with some wonky interactions with Chosen/Chaos Marines compared to Plague Marines.
Well the whole supplement was wonky but it didn't create dumb artifical restrictions.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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I'm not getting what the issue is.. doesn't DG have access to everything CSM does by bringing another detachment?
   
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dominuschao wrote:
I'm not getting what the issue is.. doesn't DG have access to everything CSM does by bringing another detachment?


It won't be Death Guard, it'll be a different Legion if you do that.

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Also imagine an army like Death Guard not having access to Obliterators but WORLD EATERS do!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.


It would require a new datasheet currently. But the codex could surprise us and add back in many missing unit options.


That's true, but the changes wouldn't have to be that much. What I really think is strange is that possessed don't get disgusting resilience. Both Plague Marines and Nurgle daemons get it, but somehow the ability gets lost when the two merge. Since DG possessed don't get obsec, giving them disgusting resilience could give them the role of extremely tough elite melee infantry whose role is only to charge or protect characters.
   
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Way I see it giving DG full access to CSM units would basically invalidate the main codex. Why would someone ever run codex options when all they lose is Tsons and WE and those can be souped.

It would be like what forgeworld did to CSM in the past.
Edit- and now.. it's a bandaid.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 05:25:17


 
   
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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 05:28:26


   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?



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 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.

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Completely disagree. I am all for the AoS model of really distinct army identities. If I wanted to play CSM, I'd play CSM. If I wanted to play DG and more CSM units, I can take different detachments.

I'm all for giving DG more options, but a c/p from CSM is the lazy route. I want more crazy bubotic stuff that only a Nurgle-inspired DG madman would come up with.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though. By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...
   
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Crispy78 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though. By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...


You still refer to the drukhari or craftworlds codex for the relevant entries so it's not quite the same. If the death guard book said "you may include a heretic astartes greater possessed (see codex heretic astartes) and change its legion to death guard" that would be the equivalent to ynnari, which is still a dopey situation.

I'd rather ynnari became a full faction with their own kit variants rather than just a borrow another factions rules army. Likewise as long as DG are self contained, it is better for all entries to be from their codex.
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Way I see it giving DG full access to CSM units would basically invalidate the main codex. Why would someone ever run codex options when all they lose is Tsons and WE and those can be souped.

It would be like what forgeworld did to CSM in the past.
Edit- and now.. it's a bandaid.


Why would it invalidate the main codex? Night lords play very differently from DG for example. Even without the DG/TS exclusive minis, the other legions would be played.
Thats the same as saying that because BA/DA/SW exist, the base Space marine codex is invalidated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.


They shouldve had the lord aura from the start, right now theyre basically a unit called "Of Contagion". hopefully the codex we will know this weekend if the codex changes that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TonyH122 wrote:
Completely disagree. I am all for the AoS model of really distinct army identities. If I wanted to play CSM, I'd play CSM. If I wanted to play DG and more CSM units, I can take different detachments.

I'm all for giving DG more options, but a c/p from CSM is the lazy route. I want more crazy bubotic stuff that only a Nurgle-inspired DG madman would come up with.


Except for the fact that DG has venomcrawlers/greater possesed/masters of possession/oblits/ etc. in the lore.
And no, taking a second detachment doesn't fix the problem because then you're not playing deathguard anymore (CSMs stuff can't get the DG keyword)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 14:34:45


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Crispy78 wrote:
There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though.
Yes, and they get regular Possessed rules, even in the Death Guard Codex. Did you not understand the point I was making?

Crispy78 wrote:
By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...
Ynnari are barely a faction. Not a great example to bring up as a comparison.


   
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Hounds of Morkai are a thing though. No reason not create a DG datasheet for possessed, especially when they no longer can be super-charged by heretic astartes shenanigans models.

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 Jidmah wrote:
Hounds of Morkai are a thing though. No reason not create a DG datasheet for possessed, especially when they no longer can be super-charged by heretic astartes shenanigans models.


Hounds of morkai come with the SW upgrade pack to make them "unique" which is why they have special rules.
We'll probably have more info tomorrow when we get previewed some codex stuff.

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