Switch Theme:

How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Tend to agree with you. But it would certainly have been portrayed as a glorious Imperial victory.

"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Da Boss wrote:
 Llamahead wrote:
II'd say more 19th century Zanzibar. Conquered in approximately half an hour by the Royal Navy....Morale's important if the revolting populace are more loyal to the Imperium than the revolting leader 5 marines to kill him will rather easily subdue a world.


Does it really count as conquering a planet if the population were already loyal to the Imperium? I think it's just a silly bit of background.


Well yes, same way as killing most major world leaders of real nations will count as conquering a nation even if you haven't been around to every household to beat the locals up. Because of the vast size of the Imperium its possible to be at war with the Imperium whilst supporting the Emperor. Chaos directly takes advantage of this fact and whilst many a cult is formed against him, many have started down the path to chaos by being the Emperors loyal servant (heck read the Eisenhorn stories to get a great show of this taking place)

   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

Sorry, what? So the populace is loyal to the Imperium but there are some bad guys who aren't.
So the Space Marines come down and kill the baddies and the locals are happy!
That's liberation, not conquest.
Conquest means the people being conquered didn't want to be conquered, and I am not seeing 5 marines be able to do that to any planet that is reasonably populated.

Maybe a planet with like, 1 settlement like was described in the Night Lords series? That might work. But at best all you would do is cow the population while you are physically present and encourage terrorism and insurrection against turncoats when you are not physically there.

As to your real world example, eh, no, it really doesn't work like that. They shot the leaders of the Rising in 1916 and that was the end of Irish Independence was it? Nah, actually it took it from being a fairly fringe concern and turned it into a mainstream opinion because of the brutality of what was done.

6 years later and Britain was driven out despite massive size and overwhelmingly powerful military.

Come on, Space Marine background has become really silly at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 17:11:15


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

No one said the work was done with the conquest - that just means you've crushed the main organised resistance. You've still got to bring in the Imperial Guard to hold order; to ferret out the last dregs of resistance; the administratum to organise and produce the proper paperwork.

5 Marines can conquer a planet; they just need the backup of the rest of the Imperium to hold, organise, maintain and run the planet.





Also don't forget many worlds are run basically like a Kingdom - a small ruling elite on top. If you destroy that ruling elite then those underneath aren't going to rise up and become elite; they will simply swap one set of masters for another.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 17:20:21


   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

Nah, I don't buy that at all. If it says all it takes is 5 marines to conquer a planet, then I assume that is what it means. If they want to say it only takes 5 marines to take out the corrupt leadership of a planet, then yeah fine.
5 marines to kill the leadership and then an imperial guard regiment to occupy the planet is a lot more reasonable to me.

   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




whenever an argument comes down to the phrase "according to the lore" it's over. There is no canon, no lore, no true source. According to GW Gabriel Angelos can do front flip hammer downs in Tartaros Terminator armor. according to the LORE Spacemarines use multilasers on their vehicles. According to the lore, a single gen 1 Astartes can sneak up on and dispatch 5 Drukhari Primals, bare handed like some sort of over sized Sly Marbo.

I don't even want to get into the lore where it concerns what Guilliman can do.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






An illustration may help...




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 18:50:35


I've never watched a whole episode of Firefly. 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I consider the whole overwhelm them with mass lasguns is a lie. Just means you have a whole lot of men to die on mass. In the lore space marines just ignore lasgun fire like it was rain.

How do you deal with Chaos Space marines, lots of heavy weapon teams and tanks. If you need infantry to do the job, get some hellguns and you have a chance of winning. If it comes to melee...forget it.

Imperial guard have very poor weapon choices beyond heavy weapons for anti-armour when you consider they can't really afford to get too close. Although lore gives space marines plot armour which can't be beaten.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 15:42:46


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I consider the whole overwhelm them with mass lasguns is a lie. Just means you have a whole lot of men to die on mass. In the lore space marines just ignore lasgun fire like it was rain.
Rain isn't dangerous either, until a Monsoon hits and now it is.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

I mean there is a lot of badly written bolter porn out there, it is true.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 Da Boss wrote:
I mean there is a lot of badly written bolter porn out there, it is true.


That's the issue at the end of the day

Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love 
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






@ melee: I mean... Space Marines cut open other Space marines with Powerweapons like powerswords and axes or use Plasma... every IG officer starting with Sergents can have a powersword/fist AND a plasmapistol. I would be very careful with saying (C)SM can be careless in melee. Those powerswords/fists are build to gut through powerarmor

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 17:51:34


~4150 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

I also don't like the idea that it's just sheer volume of lasgun fire.
In order to be able to level that volume of fire at a Space Marine you'd have to be standing almost shoulder to shoulder.
Standing shoulder to shoulder against an enemy carrying a fully automatic weapon with high explosive ammunition is just a recipe for disaster.

IMO the threat of Space Marines is exactly why Imperial Guard squads can carry things like plasma guns and plasma pistols.
Even the grenade launcher firing krak grenades can seriously ruin an Astarte's day.

IMO consider a Space Marine exactly like a light tank or armoured car today (except close combat doesn't work because it fights back).
The squad's small arms just hang back and remove the enemy's support, or suppress the enemy by hitting the lenses. Meanwhile your special/heavy weapon manoeuvres into position.
That or you pull back entirely and call in support from higher up command. Artillery, airstrikes, heavier ground assets, etc, are all capabilities maintained by the Imperial Guard capable of killing an Astartes.
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






An anecdotal similarity: the German Gepard Flak tank of the Cold war had 2 x 35 mm autocannons, a caliber much to small to penetrate a contemporary Main Battle Tank. Yet it was tested and proven that if forced to fight, a Gepard Salvo could damage the optics, treads and turret mechanics so badly, that it could damage a MBT enough to retreat. It's the same principle like lasguns vs. Powerarmor.

~4150 build and painted 
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

Power Armour is not magic. The lasers from lasguns will be imparting energy to the armour which will cause it to heat up.

That will either cook the marine inside eventually or render the armour inoperable as components melt and deform.

Lasguns are not flashlights, they are lasers powerful enough to punch a hole through someone.

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 Da Boss wrote:
Power Armour is not magic. The lasers from lasguns will be imparting energy to the armour which will cause it to heat up.

That will either cook the marine inside eventually or render the armour inoperable as components melt and deform.

Lasguns are not flashlights, they are lasers powerful enough to punch a hole through someone.


Ceramite is a form of heat and shock-resistant ceramic material that is widely used throughout the Imperium of Man.

Using lasguns to heat up ceramite to the point of destroying it is like trying to drown someone with a water gun or a garden hose, its possible...but why would you?. Where as you could just use something that is actually good against armour and waste a lot less time and men. Even an autocannnon can do pretty damn well against space marines its not like you need to have a las or plasma cannon.

Lasguns are extremely good weapons, in fact they are the best weapons in the imperium in terms of durability and ammo capacity. However they are pretty much useless against heavy infantry like space marines so don't use them for that. I believe picking the right tool always makes your job easier and lasguns most definitely not suited for fighting space marines.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 12:04:14


 
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






But not everything on the Marine can be ceramite... there have to be joints, you can even see them on the models. And whatever stuff those are made from, can most likely be penetrated.

~4150 build and painted 
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

Heat resistant does not mean it cannot absorb heat if it is being shot constantly with high power lasers, which is what some people in the thread want to imply. It will heat up, and cook the marine inside. The heat will get in through breathing apparatus, joints and so on. And if it has a really high specific heat capcity, it will also HOLD that heat really well, so it will mean that any Marine that heats up will find it very difficult to cool down again.

I completely agree, 1 lasbolt is probably not a big threat unless it hits them in the eye or unhelmeted head. If it hits them in a joint it is probably a minor injury a marine can ignore. But a barrage of lasbolts is not something a marine can ignore at will. Their armour is not immune to physics.

What this thread demonstrates is that the power level of marines in peoples imaginations had really skyrocketed over the years!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/10 13:15:47


   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Heat resistant doesn't mean immune to heat. Enough concentrated lasgun fire will kill a marine. The armour will eventually fail. Lasgun shots aren't bullets.

That said, I'd like to address the whole "shoot them in their un-helmeted head" idea. How many CSM are running around without helmets? That's a loyalist thing. Most CSM have survived too long to be that stupid. Remember "Beware a man who has survived a long time in a very dangerous profession". And a lot of CSM have survived for millennia in a very dangerous profession.....
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

I've always taken the unhelmeted thing to purely be a model thing, and they don't do that in 'reality'.
Like how all the main characters run around helmetless in every Hollywood movie ever, it's not what actually happens.

In various books the ceramite plating on power armour has protected them from things such as orbital reentry or [briefly] the spout of an active volcano.
Trying to cook a marine with lasgun fire is horrendously inefficient. Far better to just call up your buddy with the plasma gun. After all, this is exactly what you keep him around for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/10 22:13:29


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





there are more anti marine weapons in guard squads than there are marines in the imperium.

The guard deploy heavy bolters (D2 now...), lascannons, autocannons, melta guns, plasma guns, grenade launchers etc.

And there are 2 of those in each squad. 500 squads of guard can feasibly possess 1 anti marine gun for every marine in a chapter.


Not including that they're now pumping out 4000 lasgun shots at the same time.


power armour isn't invulnerable, nor is the marine flesh underneath it.

If power armour is completely immune to lasguns, then sisters, eldar scorpions, fire dragons, reapers etc area also all immune to lasguns.


A lasgun is still a deadly weapon. If there was a 40k mythbusters they'd just put a suit in front of a lasgun and shoot it until it was compromised. And then point 50 lasguns at it and see how long that would take to compromise it.







   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Heat resistant does not mean it cannot absorb heat if it is being shot constantly with high power lasers, which is what some people in the thread want to imply. It will heat up, and cook the marine inside. The heat will get in through breathing apparatus, joints and so on. And if it has a really high specific heat capcity, it will also HOLD that heat really well, so it will mean that any Marine that heats up will find it very difficult to cool down again.

Yeah because space marines tend to just let you shoot them over and over... lets be serious if an imperial guard does hit a space marine he generally has about 2 seconds to live along with his mates. You should watch the fan video Astartes it gives a pretty solid impression of how good a space marine actually is.

What this thread demonstrates is that the power level of marines in peoples imaginations had really skyrocketed over the years!


It shows you don't really have a grasp on how strong space marines are supposed to be. 1000 marines in a chapter.. in a war of billions...if they weren't much better than anyone else they would do precisely nothing. Even being fair an assuming that 1000 should be more like 10,000 they still couldn't make much of a difference to billions unless they were near unstoppable to normal men. A single company of space marines defeated 10,000 orcs with only combat knives after they ran out of ammunition and they killed every last orc including a warboss. Space marines have killed demon primarchs and greater demons pretty regularly. I can't think of a time when Imperial guard have ever defeated a demon primarch...regardless of numbers actually finding it difficult to think of any time imperial guard have defeated a greater demon.
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

I've seen Astartes. It is certainly well animated.

And yes, there is a lot of poorly written background about Space Marines.

   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






As you mention Astartes: look at part 3, from 1:23 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4
That's a twin Multilaser. As would be expected, it just shreds unarmored light infantry (that's what we would expect). The Marine is hit from 1:25 to 1:29, so 4-5 seconds, before he goes into cover (so he sees a necessarity to do so, even against mere lasbolts). Notice that at 1:29/1:30 we can see multiple already glowing hitmarks on his powerarmor, which implies that it has been seriously heated up and needs time to cool down at these spots. At 1:33 we see part of him again and they seem to at least not be red hot anymore.

=> I don't know exactly the rate of fire of a Multilaser, but from the looks of it, it can not be that much faster than maybe 3-6 Lasguns. Yes it has a higher intensity, but as on the tabletop no armor Penetration against Powerarmor. Still I take from that (and I think that's a good representation of the "Lasgunresistance" of Powerarmor) while the Marines armor can take dozends of shots unpenetrated, the hitmarks heat up to red hot state. He can survive this for at least 4-5 seconds and the armor recovers fast, still if he kept standing there not all the hitmarks would have cooled down, as some would have been repeatedly hit. And at some point the heat dissipation capability of the armor would have been compromised.

That's basically what I'm talking about. A Powerarmor wearer can weather some 50 lasgun shots (which would outright kill a mere mortal in Flak Armor), kill some troopers get to cover, let his armor dissipate the heat, get out again, take another 50, kill some more, evade LoS, dissipate heat again etc. But even for Powerarmor it's a risky move to approach platoons of Guardsmen (and they should always come in 100s to 1000s), as there is only so much head that can be dissipated.

~4150 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 Da Boss wrote:
Nah, I don't buy that at all. If it says all it takes is 5 marines to conquer a planet, then I assume that is what it means. If they want to say it only takes 5 marines to take out the corrupt leadership of a planet, then yeah fine.
5 marines to kill the leadership and then an imperial guard regiment to occupy the planet is a lot more reasonable to me.


"Conquest" is the subjugation of control of a palce or people through military force.

Basically conquest is an extremely nebulous concept. Technically speaking it doesn't even involve death or violence; theoretically rolling into a location with military might, and the locals subsequently surrendering and obeying, is conquest. Conquest could also involve the removal of a single central figure, so long as those below that figure then fall in line without that figure. Ergo a sufficiently threatening military presence can conquer enemies without taking any violent action. Or a single surgical strike can conquer enemies by removing their leadership and subsequently having them surrender / fall in line / ect.

And that's how five space marines conquer a planet. Drop in and decimate the centralized leadership (Imperial planets are basically planet-wide king-ships), then tell the cowering underlings that this planet is now under imperial rule. They hop on the vox, the military at large stands down, and the planet is conquered. Those marines five marines will have one hell of a time holding the planet (read: they can't), but they're entirely capable of conquering it.

Likewise, given that space marines are basically "angels of the emperor" in the eyes of most of the citizenry, to the extent that their exist is mostly legend, folklore, & propaganda, it's important to realize what them showing up would be. Rebelling against the impressive regime may seem all fine and dandy, but once the marines show up? Once the literal god-like angels of death descend of fiery wings, decimate anything nearby, and shrug off all of your weapons like drops of rain? It's not unrealistic for dissenting elements to throw down their arms and surrender. At which point they've been conquered, despite the marines not going door to door and delivering a knuckle-sandwich to every individual who was pro rebellion.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

To me that implies the Marines were tipping the scales on a planet that was falling toward rebellion. I think a planet that is openly rebelling and maybe worshipping Chaos or fallen to a Genestealer Cult would absolutely not go the same way.

Look at the chaos infected planets from Gaunt's Ghosts. No way are the troops at Fortis Binary or the Blood Pact gonna give up just because 5 marines arrived. We are talking about planets where the rebellion was mostly a preserve of a small cadre of the upper classes and the remaining populace were mostly ignorant or complicit only through fear or apathy, not planets where the population had actually properly rejected imperial rule.

I totally believe that 5 space marines could land and destroy a corrupt nobility and their personal bodyguards. But to my mind saying that means it only takes 5 marines to conquer a planet is creative accounting at best.

But you can see in this thread that the power fantasy for marines has gone through the roof. No questioning of the capabilities of Space Marines is really accepted any more, they are unstoppable mini-tanks in the minds of some of the fandom now and that mindset is so popular and prevalent that GW has invented a new type of Marine to pander to it.

So I guess soon enough my view on this will be completely wrong and people who believe marines to be unstoppable tank-men will be entirely correct. That is pretty lame to me, the power fantasy is not really why I am interested in this fiction. But it does seem to be the way things are going.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well, background is always a puff piece for the protagonists, whether it’s a Codex, short story, novel etc.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that, in theory at least, it’s pretty rare for Astartes of any flavour to stick around.

Loyalists are meant for the shattering of the enemy command structure. Get in, display unspeakable violence and tear out the enemy command root and stem (Patriarchs, Cult Demagogues etc). This, again in theory, fatally weakens the enemy war effort so the AM can do what they do and just steam roll the enemy whilst confusion reigns.

Traitors? Well, a lot of their time is spent raiding for resources (including people for trading with the Dark Mechanicum*). Yes some still conduct mass invasions (typically the original Legions), and if they’ve got the numbers that can be terrifying.

Traitors can also bring in Daemonic support, and that shouldn’t be underestimated as a tactic. Depending on the ritual and the destabilisation created, that’s a potentially endless flood of effective troops - and not just in combat either, given their nature.

Astra Militarum are something of an ideal counter. Trying to use Cultists as bullet sponges? Yeah, lasguns dont run out of ammo that quickly. Artillery can tear swathes through your lines, and even slay the Astartes, or at least render them combat ineffective.

This is why mass invasions were previously relatively rare. The Traitor Legions need to balance the benefit of achieving their objectives against the inevitable casualties and expenditure of materiel. This seems especially true of more recent Renegades, as they may be far fewer in number, and won’t have contracts/agreements in place to replace such things.

One imagines that if you’re a n00b, and Dark Mechanicum** and the likes of Fabius Bile will set their price however they damn well please, because what the eff are you going to do about it?.

*Man they need a better name. Of all the factions to have been rebranded, they’re the last made spoopy by just adding ‘Dark’.

**Like really really. They’re Daemonsmiths, creators of terrifying weapons. Not some sad act little Emo kids trying to be edgy.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




So I guess soon enough my view on this will be completely wrong and people who believe marines to be unstoppable tank-men will be entirely correct. That is pretty lame to me, the power fantasy is not really why I am interested in this fiction. But it does seem to be the way things are going.


It helps sell more space marines is my guess. Just look at the Xeno's races none of them can pull of what space marines can. Eldar have primarch like characters in the Phoenix Lords and look at the difference in power between them and the Primarchs of the Space marines. Its annoying and i can see why you would want to bring it back into a more realistic power scaling but its been going on for too long to be written off as bad writing, sad but true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 14:31:02


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Kildare, Ireland


I always read marine armour as heavier on the legs, chest and pauldrons. In the image above, you can see the marine has been shot twice in the right leg, on a reinforced area.

His arm looks considerably less armoured- I'd expect a solid hit from a lasgun at his wrist (or throat, respirator ) to penetrate, if not sever. Note that some primaris variants and Mk3 armour have reinforced arms.

The pauldrons take a lot of battering- you can see the ablative outer layer has been chewed away in the dead marine below him. I wouldn't expect to get through the paudrons/chestplate without something heavier or a marine getting absolutely pasted.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





The saying 'even a broken clock is right twice a day' (they have a LOT of clocks) comes to mind when IG vs CSM, the same way Smaug gets smashed I guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 15:10:49


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: