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Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Dysartes wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Gaiman is pretty involved with this, like he was with Good Omens.

If he's happy with the actress they've picked for Death, I'm willing to go with it until we see some footage.


John Carpenter was happy with the remake of the Fog. That didn't mean that the cast and crew knew what they were doing, it just meant that John Carpenter was paid to say it's good.

I see this alienating a lot of the fanbase, and I have never seen changing a major character turn out any way but utter garbage, with one exception, and it took Idris Elba to pull it off.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

LOL. I have a hard time seeing the Sandman 'base' being triggered by darker skin.

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 gorgon wrote:
LOL. I have a hard time seeing the Sandman 'base' being triggered by darker skin.


Its a tricky one and whilst the Endless have that whole eye of the beholder going on Death is kind of iconic. But its his story so he can do as he pleases, and whilst I hope it doesn't make me some kind of -ist I was hoping for a cheery Gothette

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 gorgon wrote:
LOL. I have a hard time seeing the Sandman 'base' being triggered by darker skin.


Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how long some of us have been waiting for a live action 'Death'? This was one of the more iconic characters to come out of the book!




Further, Her only roles of note was Simone in 'The Good Place' and Grace from 'Infinity Train'. This is not encouraging at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 18:37:23



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 gorgon wrote:
LOL. I have a hard time seeing the Sandman 'base' being triggered by darker skin.


Most of the fans seem to support Neil Gaiman's casting choices, and have faith in him to make this work. The people complaining about it also seem to be complaining about Constantine being gender-swapped as well...
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

@Baron: The actress in question can wear a leather jacket and ankh, and have eye makeup with an eye of Horus look. And there are non-white people who are Goths. If any of that even matters, since the Endless don't have a fixed appearance, as stated earlier in the thread. I don't understand your angle here.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
beast_gts wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
LOL. I have a hard time seeing the Sandman 'base' being triggered by darker skin.


Most of the fans seem to support Neil Gaiman's casting choices, and have faith in him to make this work. The people complaining about it also seem to be complaining about Constantine being gender-swapped as well...


Yeah, what big Sandman fans they are, huh?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 19:29:18


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Neil Gaiman wrote:It’s Sandman. It’s still Sandman. The same Sandman that establishes in issue 4 of the comic that The Endless have no fixed race or ethnicity. Take a look at Issue 9 again. It may help.


 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, what big Sandman fans they are, huh?
I don't want to gatekeep, or judge who is a "true fan", but if you're going to rant on the Internet at least check you've got your basic facts right...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 19:33:25


 
   
Made in gb
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@ Beast, come come you know using facts on the internet is frowned on...

Although I'm looking forward to herd confusion if they stick the Nada story in (extra bafflement bonus if they tell the female version of the story)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 19:46:38


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
@ Beast, come come you know using facts on the internet is frowned on...
One of the (many) downsides of being an old git...

I get that Death is a cultural icon and means a lot to people, but that Death still exists and cannot be taken away from you. This is a different Death for a different time.
   
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Or the same Death, viewed through a different lens.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 gorgon wrote:
@Baron: The actress in question can wear a leather jacket and ankh, and have eye makeup with an eye of Horus look. And there are non-white people who are Goths. If any of that even matters, since the Endless don't have a fixed appearance, as stated earlier in the thread. I don't understand your angle here.


There's no fixed superman either. We can cast and write him as a transgendered central Asian person with no powers and no costume. But I guarantee that people would be unhappy with it.

Using the fact that the Endless are multidimensional beings that are perceived in a variety of ways is a cop out in this case, since, IIRC, Death is the only one who doesn't actually do that in the series, or in other appearances in DC, since she's also the offical Death of the DC universe. (though one could argue that there is some heavy handed symbolism there, if intentional) In fact, in the one story where she altered the perceptions of those around her, she still appears the same to the reader. This was, at least, as I see it, to contrast with Delirium, who changes quite frequently, for obvious reasons.

That and I have serious reservations about her ability to play this part ,not just based on her appearance, but on the part where I've never seen her in anything good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 23:32:46



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Devon, UK

There's no fixed superman either. We can cast and write him as a transgendered central Asian person with no powers and no costume. But I guarantee that people would be unhappy with it.


Ah yes, Trigger's Superman. I enjoyed that run.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

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 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no fixed superman either. We can cast and write him as a transgendered central Asian person with no powers and no costume. But I guarantee that people would be unhappy with it.


Ah yes, Trigger's Superman. I enjoyed that run.


#WarOnSuperman


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Imagine thinking you know better than the series creator. I wish I had that much chutzpah.

Anyway, I really doubt that people who enjoy Gaiman's stories will care that much, I certainly don't. Being pale wasn't central to her character, being sympathetic and kind was.
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
Or the same Death, viewed through a different lens.


Could be fun to have multiple Deaths if they do a take on The Sound of her Wings

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 09:18:14


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

Cronch wrote:
Imagine thinking you know better than the series creator. I wish I had that much chutzpah.


Look at The Fog. Carpenter loved the remake, no one else did.

Secondly, Gaiman hasn't exactly had a good track record in film and television. While American Gods (which was just cancelled) and Good Omens have been relative successes, Stardust, Beowulf, Mirrormask, and the Miramax dub of Princess Mononoke were at best 'meh'. Hellboy II was just bad, but that can't really be laid at Gaiman's feet, he only wrote part of it.

So, when he claims that he can make something work that has, thus far, generally failed in comic book movies, work, you'll pardon my skepticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Or the same Death, viewed through a different lens.


Could be fun to have multiple Deaths if they do a take on The Sound of her Wings


This would actually be awesome. or something similar in The Time of Your Life, though it wouldn't work in High Cost of Living.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 15:43:47



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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I really liked Hellboy 2…

 
   
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And mirror mask and Stardust are glorious.

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Devon, UK

And you already used the Fog.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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 Flinty wrote:
And mirror mask and Stardust are glorious.



Stardust barely broke even at the box office, and Mirrormask made less than a million on a 4 million dollar budget. Even if it was meant for Straight-to-Video, that's not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
And you already used the Fog.


There's a lot to point at with that train-wreck.

We could do Alita. Yukito Kishiro loved Robert Rodriguez's version, but it still only just broke even, maybe, despite being his highest grossing movie ever.

The thing is, that Gaiman wants something from the studio. He's been fighting to get a dozen movie projects off the ground over the last few years, so he'll say whatever he thinks will improve the movie/series success. Even if his actual opinion is more in line with Allen Moore's views of his own works in cinema. Given how closely the rest of the cast resembles their characters, I suspect this was something studio mandated rather than Gaiman's first choice.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/28 18:53:07



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
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Devon, UK

Jesus, just stop.

You're moving goalposts between "successful" and "good" to suit your argument, which any fool knows are not equivalent metrics, drawing massive false equivalencies and leaning really hard on one example which is entirely subjective.

All to justify an already paper thin objection that's been shown to be baseless on multiple occasions in the past.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Azreal13 wrote:
Jesus, just stop.

You're moving goalposts between "successful" and "good" to suit your argument, which any fool knows are not equivalent metrics, drawing massive false equivalencies and leaning really hard on one example which is entirely subjective.


You do realize that it will have to be both, right?


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
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Huh.
Good Omens was stellar.
I’ll give this a shot, no matter who’s cast. I find it better that lesser known people get the roles. It helps them become the embodiment of that character as I have no preconceived notions about who they played before. Nor does my previous opinion of their works create a personal bias of like or dislike.

I’m perfectly all right with a black woman as Death. But regardless of ethnicity, I think this is more a case of very high expectations for this particular character, and can she pull it off?

I for one will reserve judgement of good or bad casting choices until I see it.
   
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Devon, UK

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Jesus, just stop.

You're moving goalposts between "successful" and "good" to suit your argument, which any fool knows are not equivalent metrics, drawing massive false equivalencies and leaning really hard on one example which is entirely subjective.


You do realize that it will have to be both, right?


It's on a steaming service, their criteria for "successful" doesn't equate to box office. It may not even translate simply into volume of streams or increase in subscription if history is any indication.

And it certainly doesn't need to be good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 19:02:02


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Crispy78 wrote:
Um. OK, I'll say it. Technically I'm probably being racist here, but I'm not happy with Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death. Death in the graphic novels is a (literally) white-skinned Goth girl - and to me that's a pretty integral part of her character. It's like she's obviously inspired Goth fashion, but her chirpy happy-go-lucky attitude is totally contrary to the stereotypical Goth... I think that will get lost with the casting of a black actress.


I'd say it's Death's personality that's important, not the skin colour. Of all the Endless, Death is the one who has the most life, empathises with the humans she comes in contact with and ironically is the one to encourage her siblings to embrace life. Once you've got an actor who can do that, it doesn't matter to me what they look like.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I have a hard time getting hung up on a skin color change from a comic in which sometimes the main character's appearance is "a tribesman", "a cat", or "a burning skull", but you know, you do you I guess.

Spoiler:






imagine pretending to be a fan and also pretending that Death being white is important



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
I really liked Hellboy 2…


Me too, assuming you mean the one with the Troll Market. I know it wasn't great, but I sure liked it and have rewatched it many times.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/28 20:46:47


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Ouze wrote:

imagine pretending to be a fan and also pretending that Death being white is important


Imagine pretending you know what you're talking about if you think it's about her being white. I'll wait to see if she can be goth, but I highly doubt it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/28 21:47:05



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
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Devon, UK

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

imagine pretending to be a fan and also pretending that Death being white is important


Imagine pretending you know what you're talking about if you think it's about her being white.


But you said

I have never seen changing a major character turn out any way but utter garbage, with one exception, and it took Idris Elba to pull it off.


So what else are we supposed to think?

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Azreal13 wrote:


But you said

I have never seen changing a major character turn out any way but utter garbage, with one exception, and it took Idris Elba to pull it off.


So what else are we supposed to think?



And what you took away from that was that he was black? Boy, I would have really baffled you if I'd thought Sly Stallone had been any good in Judge Dread, or, worse, had liked BvS.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
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Devon, UK

I'll just let people reading the thread make their own decisions I think.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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