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Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




How can you guys forget about the Scubbus??? She can have up to 28 attacks per fight phase.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Neophyte2012 wrote:
How can you guys forget about the Scubbus??? She can have up to 28 attacks per fight phase.
Because this is the Background section, not involving the rules.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

Lelith is worth discussing when talking about stats equal most skilled fighter, but she is hampered by the fact that physically, while top tier among Eldar, she is still just an Eldar (which still leaves her being blindingly fast even by the standards of Marines at least, much less humans)

I wager Jain Zar, who is truly superhuman by Eldar standards and likely at least on par with her in technical skill, would roll her for example.

I'd bet on one of the top tier Custodian duelists like Trajann Valoris against her as well.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





I like how no one mentioned Corien Sumatris, dude who in old FW rules was mentioned as master swordsman with WS stat better than every single SM/CSM character and most of Eldar ones.

As for Jain Zar, you'd probably lose this bet, she got rolled by random, nameless DE mook in last, awful fluff she was in. And she will get rolled some more, probably, given she can now resurrect so can act as full time Worf for her faction...
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Jain Zar is a great example of how random the writing is.

She should be the top duelist of the Eldar. She is literally the living embodiment of the art of the sword. Everything about grace and the blade, honed over multiple lifetimes to perfection. She should blender anything that gets within strike range, and with her speed and skill, that encompasses a lot of ground. Anyone who is not at the top of their game should not even think about crossing swords with her.

But she’s a “free kill” that can be Worf’d with no consequences (like her boss the Avatar) so that happens.

It does not help that her game stats are woefully inadequate.

   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 Nevelon wrote:
Jain Zar is a great example of how random the writing is.

She should be the top duelist of the Eldar. She is literally the living embodiment of the art of the sword. Everything about grace and the blade, honed over multiple lifetimes to perfection. She should blender anything that gets within strike range, and with her speed and skill, that encompasses a lot of ground. Anyone who is not at the top of their game should not even think about crossing swords with her.

But she’s a “free kill” that can be Worf’d with no consequences (like her boss the Avatar) so that happens.

It does not help that her game stats are woefully inadequate.


I've said this a before, but power levels in the lore do actually matter, even though most people dimiss them as silly. Yes, it is kind of silly to compare fictional characters combat ability, but consistency in writing does matter.
If phoenix lords get prepped up as some of the most powerful characters of a faction, an author can't just feed them to some random space marine because they resurrect anyway. Same thing with the swarmord, the poor avatar of khaine and greater demons.

I do not understand why GW is afraid or too incompetent to reign the black library authors in on consistency in power levels and writing in general. Marneus Calgar doesn't have to solo an avatar of khaine to seem badass and heroic. Write the story in a way that shows him putting up a good fight, but ultimately having no chance alone....but then his victrix guard assists him and together they manage to kill the avatar while taking massive losses. Makes both the ultramarines and the avatar seem badass, even though the avatar lost....win-win.

Negligence like this got us scenes like in the outcast dead where an unarmored worldeater who just escaped his cell on terra, PUNCHES through a custodians armor. I believe the author later said in an interview that he mistook the custodes for the lucifer blacks or some other guard regiment stationed on terra, but the damage is already done. Everybody kind of agrees to ignore that idiotic scene, but we still have a "canon" account of a bog standard world eater punching through auramite armor. This is exactly what I mean by powerlevels and consistency matter a lot, especially in a setting like 40k.

Sorry for ranting, but stuff like this bugs me to no end.

   
Made in us
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Hahahah, this loser is still talking about Marneus Calgar one-shotting Avatars of Khaine as the climactic event to a major story.

Marneus is now on to one-shotting fething Khorne Lords of Skulls as a stinger gag to end a comic strip. Get with the times boomer.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 the_scotsman wrote:
Hahahah, this loser is still talking about Marneus Calgar one-shotting Avatars of Khaine as the climactic event to a major story.

Marneus is now on to one-shotting fething Khorne Lords of Skulls as a stinger gag to end a comic strip. Get with the times boomer.


Wait...what? Well that's dumb.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 the_scotsman wrote:
Hahahah, this loser is still talking about Marneus Calgar one-shotting Avatars of Khaine as the climactic event to a major story.

Marneus is now on to one-shotting fething Khorne Lords of Skulls as a stinger gag to end a comic strip. Get with the times boomer.

Oh dear.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Now we can just start discussing what cannon lore is correct and which is false.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm gonna throw Tuska-Daemon-Killa into the ring 'Ere, the guy has been fighting constantly for khorne (gettin bigga, stronger, an kunniner) for what's probably like a minimum of 200 years before any warp distortion. Plus he has the ultimate finisher of the balls snip. I think the git could handle anythin. Plus, being a champion of khorne he'd be red, so there's not even the issue of sluggish ork reflexes.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
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Dakka Veteran




 Xenomancers wrote:
Now we can just start discussing what cannon lore is correct and which is false.


Yes, we can and that can be fun, but ignoring something that objectively does not make any sense within the confines of how the 40k universe is written, is not the same thing as coming up with your headcanon about say....the origin of the emperor, which is left purposefully vague and leaves many things open to interpretation.

It's perfectly fine if someone headcanon states that every bog standard space marine can single handedly kill a bloodthirster....maybe they even make custom rules that buff normal space marines up to demigod powerlevels. Nobody has the right to tell you how you are supposed to enjoy and play this hobby, but it would objectively not make any sense within an official 40k storyline considering how the setting has been written by it's original sources for decades.

   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 the_scotsman wrote:
Hahahah, this loser is still talking about Marneus Calgar one-shotting Avatars of Khaine as the climactic event to a major story.

Marneus is now on to one-shotting fething Khorne Lords of Skulls as a stinger gag to end a comic strip. Get with the times boomer.


Joking, or legitimate?
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

 Void__Dragon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Hahahah, this loser is still talking about Marneus Calgar one-shotting Avatars of Khaine as the climactic event to a major story.

Marneus is now on to one-shotting fething Khorne Lords of Skulls as a stinger gag to end a comic strip. Get with the times boomer.


Joking, or legitimate?

   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

LOL wtf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 06:08:31


 
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





 Void__Dragon wrote:


I wager Jain Zar, who is truly superhuman by Eldar standards and likely at least on par with her in technical skill, would roll her for example.

Yeah, Jain Zar does have more appearance and better feats, but in that utter disgrace of a lore she was fighting on par with Hesperax against Shalaxi and still got tagged whereas Lelith wasn't. I wouldn't really call Jain Zar "much faster" or even “ faster by a clear margin”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If we're not counting the primarchs? I guess Valdor would be up there if he's truly still alive after we last heard of him.
Abaddon wasn't a remarkable duelist to begin with, I'd say Kharn would be the top duelist among the CSM, and please, his reputation is a lot better than someone who got killed all the time before transforming his foe into himself.
Drazhar or some elite solitaire should be on the list, the other phoenix lords though, well, it greatly depends on how you see them...they could slaughter some greater daemons with ease before getting bitch-slapped by cool astartes skills. Now if we're taking a good look at the Custodes...that Valoris guy doesn't really have much feats yet, but if his combat prowess is anything close to Valdor's, then sure. Valerian is impressive as well, buuuuuuut he considered himself "more of a scholar", so it would be either him having some unnecessary self-doubt, or some of his brethren being indeed superior in combat.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 02:07:07


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




United States

Voss wrote:
anything tau shouldn't even be visible from the list.


And why might that be? I get why the T'au get a bad reputation for being appalling melee fighters, but it has more to do with their ideological standpoint of "melee is for savages." Aun'Shi is a member of the Ethereal caste, not even considered the best in terms of physicality (i.e. Fire Caste have a bulkier/stronger frame), and is able to go toe to toe with orks with nothing but the clothes on his back and an honor blade. If he can do it, I am sure that others can as well, you just have to abandon the ruling caste's notion of close combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 06:57:29


 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





Your 30k list seems to be missing a certain Saul Tarvitz. He did beat Lucius 1v1 who is Tier 2 in 40k.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I guess the best duellists of the 40k world are now merely faces on Lucius the Eternal's armour!

I sincerely hope the newest fluff still features the person being changed as reducing down to nothing more than another tortured soul screaming silently from his armor?

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