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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 vict0988 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A heavy bolter replaces an average of 1 S3 hit at rapid fire range. Half of one at 24”, and none at 36”.

A Big Shoota replaces not just the shooting, but also the Choppa.

I forgot HWT carry a lasgun, prior to 8th they couldn't use it. So I was thinking 2 FRFSRF lasguns.
You're also comparing the average number of hits from an Ork's Shoota as compared to the maximum number of shots you thought they could get being lost.

That's disingenuous.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 JNAProductions wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A heavy bolter replaces an average of 1 S3 hit at rapid fire range. Half of one at 24”, and none at 36”.

A Big Shoota replaces not just the shooting, but also the Choppa.

I forgot HWT carry a lasgun, prior to 8th they couldn't use it. So I was thinking 2 FRFSRF lasguns.
You're also comparing the average number of hits from an Ork's Shoota as compared to the maximum number of shots you thought they could get being lost.

That's disingenuous.

That's stupid. Lasguns are RF and can double their rate of fire, shootas cannot. Comparing a RF to heavy upgrade and assault to assault is apples to oranges.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 vict0988 wrote:
A Guardsman is 5 points, a big shoota kills 1 pts worth of Guardsmen more per turn than a shoota. If you take average life expectency for a unit of Shoota Boyz in battle rounds you have the value of a big shoota in pts. Basing it on its value against SM is a bad idea because that is not its intended target, if it was worth taking against them it would be overpowered. If it was worth shooting rokkits at Guardsmen then rokkits would be overpowered.

Making it free is silly because that will punish players that do not have Big Shoota Boys laying around for all of their units.

I cannot think of a weapon getting twice as many shots going well. Tesla carbines, multi-meltas, where is the balance? What's fun about rocket tag?

When mortars were 5 pts they were spammed, heavy bolters are better than mortars, if heavy bolters become 5 pts they will be spammed. A heavy bolter in an Infantry Squad replaces two lasguns, that's up to 4 S3 hits. A Big Shoota replaces 0,78 S4 hits. The math is a lot different.
In this post, you compared .78 hit from a Shoota (the average number of hits it gets) to 4 Lasgun hits (the maximum possible, assuming Rapid Fire or FRFSRF and the two Lasguns you thought).

You should've compared either the number of shots, or the average number of hits, for both. Not one for one and one for the other. THAT is what I am calling disingenuous.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 JNAProductions wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
A Guardsman is 5 points, a big shoota kills 1 pts worth of Guardsmen more per turn than a shoota. If you take average life expectency for a unit of Shoota Boyz in battle rounds you have the value of a big shoota in pts. Basing it on its value against SM is a bad idea because that is not its intended target, if it was worth taking against them it would be overpowered. If it was worth shooting rokkits at Guardsmen then rokkits would be overpowered.

Making it free is silly because that will punish players that do not have Big Shoota Boys laying around for all of their units.

I cannot think of a weapon getting twice as many shots going well. Tesla carbines, multi-meltas, where is the balance? What's fun about rocket tag?

When mortars were 5 pts they were spammed, heavy bolters are better than mortars, if heavy bolters become 5 pts they will be spammed. A heavy bolter in an Infantry Squad replaces two lasguns, that's up to 4 S3 hits. A Big Shoota replaces 0,78 S4 hits. The math is a lot different.
In this post, you compared .78 hit from a Shoota (the average number of hits it gets) to 4 Lasgun hits (the maximum possible, assuming Rapid Fire or FRFSRF and the two Lasguns you thought).

You should've compared either the number of shots, or the average number of hits, for both. Not one for one and one for the other. THAT is what I am calling disingenuous.

How often do lasguns fire 1,2 or 4 shots?

If you read my post before calling me disingenuous you would realise I wrote "up to", I was being very clear that the "math is a lot different". Big shoota is a simple upgrade from shoota, heavy bolter is much more complex upgrade, comparing the upgrades holds little value is what I was saying, I was not speaking to the value of either upgrade by comparing them, I was showing how a comparison between them breaks down and is unneeded.

Whether it is up to 2 hits or up to 4 is irrelevant, because shootas and big shootas are assault while heavy bolters and lasguns are heavy vs RF.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 21:48:02


 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

 vict0988 wrote:
Big shoota is a simple upgrade from shoota

The issue is that at 5 points it isn't actually an upgrade and even for free it's suboptimal on the slugga/choppa boyz that actually see play. The big shoota is so bad that they are only used on vehicles that literally get them for free and give up nothing to have them. There is room to buff them by 150% and still not be terribly unbalanced simply due to how bad they are right now and how rarely their niche, clearing hordes, actually matters. When the gatekeeper of the format is T4 3+ Save W2 body a horde clearing weapon with D1 and 0 AP just doesn't cut it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vict0988 wrote:
A Guardsman is 5 points, a big shoota kills 1 pts worth of Guardsmen more per turn than a shoota. If you take average life expectency for a unit of Shoota Boyz in battle rounds you have the value of a big shoota in pts. Basing it on its value against SM is a bad idea because that is not its intended target, if it was worth taking against them it would be overpowered. If it was worth shooting rokkits at Guardsmen then rokkits would be overpowered.

Making it free is silly because that will punish players that do not have Big Shoota Boys laying around for all of their units.

I cannot think of a weapon getting twice as many shots going well. Tesla carbines, multi-meltas, where is the balance? What's fun about rocket tag?

When mortars were 5 pts they were spammed, heavy bolters are better than mortars, if heavy bolters become 5 pts they will be spammed. A heavy bolter in an Infantry Squad replaces two lasguns, that's up to 4 S3 hits. A Big Shoota replaces 0,78 S4 hits. The math is a lot different.


Couple things.

1: comparing a big shoota's value against a SM statline is perfectly fine since that is who you are MOST likely to play against, and in tournaments you can't decide to swap weapon upgrades, so its an either or situation, either a big shoota or a Rokkit....and at the moment its NEITHER because they are both TERRIBLE upgrades.

2: 1 Big shoota AVERAGES 0.5 dead guardsmen a turn right now. It averages 0.25 dmg to a space marine a turn. Again, it takes 2 Big shootas (26pts of orkz) to kill 1 guardsmen reliably with big shootas OR 8 to kill 1 Space Marine reliably. My general rule of thumb is a weapon should return 33% of its value a turn in order to make back at least its points value because most things are dead by turn 3. So in order to earn back its points in a relatively meh fashion it would need to increase its average dmg vs Guardsmen somewhat dramatically

3: On top of all the above, you have to remember that Ork boyz are Close combat oriented troops (hence 2 attacks base) Those boyz want to be advancing as often as possible while the Marine and IG are perfectly happy to stand still and benefit from cover while laying down fire. Ork boyz at the moment are taken almost solely as Choppa/slugga, meaning that when you take a Big shoota you are losing a pistol AND +1 attack in CC on a unit that really only survives for long if its stuck in CC so they can't be shot which effectively reduces that big shoota to a club.

4:
Making it free is silly because that will punish players that do not have Big Shoota Boys laying around for all of their units.
Not really. Most Ork players have a plethora of big shootas or big shoota boyz laying about. Personally I think I have 3-6 I haven't bothered to assemble/paint because of how worthless they are. Every Ork boyz kit comes with the bits to make a big shoota boy, every Burna/Loota box comes with the bits to make a big shoota boy, we have plenty of bits laying about if we wanted to make them. And most importantly. Even if they were FREE upgrades, they still wouldn't add value because they suck that bad right now. Why lose 1 CC attack that has a 66% chance to hit in both my and my opponents turns, to take a Big shoota that will likely be hitting for 1 turn at BS6+ because my boyz wanted to advance and get stuck in as quickly as possible?

5: Assuming they didn't do anything I suggested (5shots -1AP) and went with doubling their shots and nothing else. That would mean that a Scrapjet would be getting 12 shots at BS5 and 12 shots at BS4, sounds like a lot doesn't it? Assuming they fixed DDD to be auto-hits on 6s that would be 14 hits 9.8ish wounds and against a Guardsmens 5+ save about 6-7 dead guardsmen, against a SM (their most likely target) it would be 3dmg for 1.5 dead Marines, Not bad for a 110pt vehicle who still has 2D3 rokkitz and a wing missile to launch. Especially in an edition where Eradicators exist and Heavy bolter spam is winning games for SOBs

Basically my best guess on what GW is going to do (because they are muppets when it comes to Orkz) is go the same way as Heavy Stubbers, IE 1 extra shot. Guess what that does? It means my units that HAVE to take big shootas got marginally better and relegated Big shootas to yet another edition of being worthless trash that Ork players would honestly rather remove and save 5pts than take on their vehicles. In the Ork tactics thread several of us were talking about the best buff we could get to Big shootas would be to allow them to be optional on vehicles so we could save those points for better units/upgrades.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






1. Orks are going to be trash if every anti-horde weapon in the game is worth taking against SM. If SM is all you play against you should not take big shootas.
2. I see what you are saying, I see the low impact and ROI, sorry for not pointing out those arguments of yours were good. I am just pointing out how poorly doubling shots has gone previously. 33% ROI on anything with more than 12" range is rocket tag and bad for the game IMO.
3. I don't get why I cannot compare shoota to big shoota. Maybe Boyz need to be cheaper and choppas should cost a half-point more than shootas. Assuming it is replacing a shoota is much simpler, then you can argue about whether shootas need a buff compared to choppas separately.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
1. Orks are going to be trash if every anti-horde weapon in the game is worth taking against SM. If SM is all you play against you should not take big shootas.
2. I see what you are saying, I see the low impact and ROI, sorry for not pointing out those arguments of yours were good. I am just pointing out how poorly doubling shots has gone previously. 33% ROI on anything with more than 12" range is rocket tag and bad for the game IMO.
3. I don't get why I cannot compare shoota to big shoota. Maybe Boyz need to be cheaper and choppas should cost a half-point more than shootas. Assuming it is replacing a shoota is much simpler, then you can argue about whether shootas need a buff compared to choppas separately.


Boyz are in desperate need of some buffs at the moment, I think its a safe bet that Choppas get AP-1 but beyond that, Orkz have gone up 33% in price since 7th and had Furious charge baked into their stats (+1 strength instead of +1 strength on the charge), they gained DDD which as described above is functionally useless in terms of impact and "Ere we go" but they also lost movement and the WAAAAAAGH general rule. SMs in comparison have gone up 20% and doubled their wounds, and gained so many special rules i can't even remember them all, doubled their # of shots and their # of CC attacks on the first turn, gained -1AP on their weapons depending on what turn etc.

The ROF needs to be increased regardless. I'm hoping for 5 shots and AP-1. I would settle for 4 shots and AP-1 but i doubt we even get that sadly :(

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

What if we changed Big Shootas to a role that makes melee easier for a unit of boyz by giving them a special rule like:

Too Much Dakka:

A unit that takes one or more hits from a model firing a big shoota may not fire in overwatch this turn.

You could pair it with a stratagem like:

Keep 'Em Pinned: 1 CP

A unit affected by the Too Much Dakka rule may not be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have already fought.

This gives these weapons a useful role that goes beyond just killing things and lets even vehicles armed with them impact how easily an Ork player can get units into favorable melees.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd definately get behind Klaws going to Dam 3 and choppas AP-1

I think that Big Choppas would need a boost to stop Klaws being the absolute only go to choice. What about giving the Big Choppa a boost to AP -2.

Big Shoota's definately needs some AP, but also the orkiness could be embraced by making them hit on 2/3+.

What I hear you cry? How? Why?
It's a lot easier to continiously fire a weapon that in whole or part is likely only to work because of the collective will of you and your fellow greenskins, and will continue to 'fire' irrespective what what ammo you shove in it or even in the absence of ammo. Thus rather than inflate the number of shots, you just accept some of these are rather likely to hit.

Alternatively the big shoota could go to damage D3 with excess wounds not being lost. It literaly just mows people down (when it hits)

Mechanically this seems more elegant than having to inflate the number of shots to account for the poor BS.

Definately onboard with the weapons and/or costs being overhaulled to account for the at present gross inefficiency.
   
Made in us
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Not bad suggestions. The only problem is you have to remember that hte big shoota is the minimum required gun on a lot of vehicle platforms. For instance the scrapjet has 4 of them, and it doesn't need to negate overwatch 4 different times, or the deffkopta which has 2 big shootas. Basically the buffing it with a debuff bonus sounds good on paper but wouldn't work because its just about everywhere.

On the other hand the "hitting on 2/3s" to make up for its piss poor accuracy/number of shots wouldn't feel orky and most importantly, wouldn't itself make the gun any better. A Stormbolter was 2pts (not sure what it is now) and a big shoota is 5. Against a Space Marine statline the Storm bolter gets 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.44dmg, against Ork boyz its 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.11 dmg. Except on specific turns where the AP is increased to -1 and the dmg increases to 0.67 and 1.33 dmg

A big shoota hitting on 3s would be 3 shots, 2 hits 1.33 wounds and 1.11dmg, against orkz its 3 shots 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.11dmg.

So at 5pts its literally as good as a stormbolter but it costs two and a half times as much. So either you massively decrease its price or you give it a volume of shots at BS3 to make up for its lack of performance. Realistically though it will be never get a BS buff, so instead you need to massive increase its volume of shots just to bring it in line with what a stormbolter already does.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I like the idea of big shootas feeling like they are just spraying the enemy. To avoid excess dice, I'd simply have them stat "each hit from a big shoota is turned into 3 hits". So if you get all 3 hits, it's 9 wound rolls.

You could even go down that route for orks with a lot of their guns, to reduce the buckets of dice - each hit by a shoota is 2 hits, each hit by a deffgun is 3, each hit by a snazzgun is 4. Then reduce them all down to 1-2 shots.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




 some bloke wrote:
I like the idea of big shootas feeling like they are just spraying the enemy. To avoid excess dice, I'd simply have them stat "each hit from a big shoota is turned into 3 hits". So if you get all 3 hits, it's 9 wound rolls.

You could even go down that route for orks with a lot of their guns, to reduce the buckets of dice - each hit by a shoota is 2 hits, each hit by a deffgun is 3, each hit by a snazzgun is 4. Then reduce them all down to 1-2 shots.


Would be incredibly hard to manage that number and keep it both fair and competitive. The shoota thing for instance, 12 shoota boyz currently average 9.3 hits, if each hit became 2 hits it would go from 9.3 to 18.6. Mind you...they still wouldn't be very good but you can imagine how that would than scale with all the other units/modifiers.

On a fun note though, if you doubled a shoota to go from 2 shots at 18 to 4 shots at 18, a FULL unit of 30 shoota boys who somehow get within 18' range of a Tactical squad would do 120 shots, 46.6 hits, 23.3 wounds and 7.77dmg or 3-4 dead Tactical Marines. 240pts would manage to kill between 54 and 72pts of Space Marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

SemperMortis wrote:
Not bad suggestions. The only problem is you have to remember that hte big shoota is the minimum required gun on a lot of vehicle platforms. For instance the scrapjet has 4 of them, and it doesn't need to negate overwatch 4 different times, or the deffkopta which has 2 big shootas. Basically the buffing it with a debuff bonus sounds good on paper but wouldn't work because its just about everywhere.

I'd probably solve those issues by giving vehicles armed with more than one big shoota a bespoke rule for using them.

A Battlewagon might have something like:

Shoot Dat One!: When shooting this model's weapons (other than big shootas) at a target that has been hit by one or more of this models big shootas this round you may reroll failed hit rolls of 1.

A scrapjet might have:

Empty Da Magazine: When shooting this model's big shootas you may choose to roll an additional attack for each hit rolled. These hits can generate additional attacks, though extra hits gained due to Dakka, Dakka, Dakka do not) until no further hits are rolled. This model may not fire these weapons again until it has left the table for at least one round.

This is a lot more work but makes the big shoota an integrated part of ork vehicle design rather than just a greeble that's barely worth modeling or firing.
   
Made in us
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Not bad suggestions. The only problem is you have to remember that hte big shoota is the minimum required gun on a lot of vehicle platforms. For instance the scrapjet has 4 of them, and it doesn't need to negate overwatch 4 different times, or the deffkopta which has 2 big shootas. Basically the buffing it with a debuff bonus sounds good on paper but wouldn't work because its just about everywhere.

I'd probably solve those issues by giving vehicles armed with more than one big shoota a bespoke rule for using them.

A Battlewagon might have something like:

Shoot Dat One!: When shooting this model's weapons (other than big shootas) at a target that has been hit by one or more of this models big shootas this round you may reroll failed hit rolls of 1.

A scrapjet might have:

Empty Da Magazine: When shooting this model's big shootas you may choose to roll an additional attack for each hit rolled. These hits can generate additional attacks, though extra hits gained due to Dakka, Dakka, Dakka do not) until no further hits are rolled. This model may not fire these weapons again until it has left the table for at least one round.

This is a lot more work but makes the big shoota an integrated part of ork vehicle design rather than just a greeble that's barely worth modeling or firing.


Keep in mind this is brainstorming so don't take this as nothing but criticism.

For the battlewagon and all rules similar, we already have Bad moonz kulture which does this, but even if you don't have that kulture the problem is the "bonus" is a 1/6th chance to proc and than a 1/3rd chance to hit followed by the wound/armor save. To put it more bluntly, it will involve lots of extra rolling and be functionally useless. A KillKannon for example has D6 shots, so its 3.5 average, so you have 58% chance to proc, A 19% chance to hit and than followed by a 6-16% chance to wound. and against a 3+ save 4-11%ish chance to do anything from that rule. A 4-11% chance to buff another weapon isn't worth costing 2.5x more than a Stormbolter while also being less effective.

For the scrapjet, 6 shots with BS4 and 6 with BS5, that means you average 3 rerolls for the BS4 gun and 2 for the BS 5 gun which averages 1.5 and .66 extra...so 2 extra hits with a possibility of a bit more, lets average it up to 2.5 total extra hits. 4 guns = 2.5 extra hits. so that averages about 0.6 extra hits per gun. Not worth it either. Also, a scrapjet is a ground vehicle not a flyer. Its literally a flyer that crashed and was turned into a buggy so it can't "leave the table" unless its destroyed .


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

SemperMortis wrote:
Keep in mind this is brainstorming so don't take this as nothing but criticism.

For the battlewagon and all rules similar, we already have Bad moonz kulture which does this, but even if you don't have that kulture the problem is the "bonus" is a 1/6th chance to proc and than a 1/3rd chance to hit followed by the wound/armor save. To put it more bluntly, it will involve lots of extra rolling and be functionally useless. A KillKannon for example has D6 shots, so its 3.5 average, so you have 58% chance to proc, A 19% chance to hit and than followed by a 6-16% chance to wound. and against a 3+ save 4-11%ish chance to do anything from that rule. A 4-11% chance to buff another weapon isn't worth costing 2.5x more than a Stormbolter while also being less effective.

I was very strongly considering just making it reroll misses but that seems like something GW is trying to get away from. This would also stack with the ability to shut down overwatch and, for a CP, make an enemy unit fight last. It's still not a great weapon's system, but its getting closer.

For the scrapjet, 6 shots with BS4 and 6 with BS5, that means you average 3 rerolls for the BS4 gun and 2 for the BS 5 gun which averages 1.5 and .66 extra...so 2 extra hits with a possibility of a bit more, lets average it up to 2.5 total extra hits. 4 guns = 2.5 extra hits. so that averages about 0.6 extra hits per gun. Not worth it either. Also, a scrapjet is a ground vehicle not a flyer. Its literally a flyer that crashed and was turned into a buggy so it can't "leave the table" unless its destroyed .

My bad, I confused the scrapjet for the dakkajet when trying to think up a bespoke rule for it.

The issue I'm having is making good rules that feel orky, don't put all of the weapon's power into just that rule, and aren't going to cause more than the usual (for orks) level of extra dice rolling. If you added in an additional -1 AP to my rules (and a full reroll for the wagon) we're probably getting closer without just adding more shots or upping the damage of a big shoota to make it a BS 5+ heavy bolter.
   
Made in fr
Stabbin' Skarboy






Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.


But people like to talk ! How dare you suggest the Sound Of Silence ! Hello Darkness

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 addnid wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.


But people like to talk ! How dare you suggest the Sound Of Silence ! Hello Darkness


My Old friend?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in fr
Stabbin' Skarboy






SemperMortis wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.


But people like to talk ! How dare you suggest the Sound Of Silence ! Hello Darkness


My Old friend?


I’ve come to talk with Mork again

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 20:46:02


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 addnid wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.


But people like to talk ! How dare you suggest the Sound Of Silence ! Hello Darkness


My Old friend?


I’ve come to talk with Mork again


becuz a Orky vizshunn loudly creeping
Left itz sporez wile I wuz sleepin
N' Da vizion dat wuz planted N' my brain
Still remainz
Within da sound O' silenze

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in fr
Stabbin' Skarboy






SemperMortis wrote:
 addnid wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.


But people like to talk ! How dare you suggest the Sound Of Silence ! Hello Darkness


My Old friend?


I’ve come to talk with Mork again


becuz a Orky vizshunn loudly creeping
Left itz sporez wile I wuz sleepin
N' Da vizion dat wuz planted N' my brain
Still remainz
Within da sound O' silenze


You my friend right there paid a great tribute to weirdboyz Simork and Gorkfunkel

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 21:19:43


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:


The issue I'm having is making good rules that feel orky, don't put all of the weapon's power into just that rule, and aren't going to cause more than the usual (for orks) level of extra dice rolling. If you added in an additional -1 AP to my rules (and a full reroll for the wagon) we're probably getting closer without just adding more shots or upping the damage of a big shoota to make it a BS 5+ heavy bolter.


getting back onto topic after the darkness, This is actually a good point, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing scenario. The problem as I currently see it is that GW tends to do just that. very few weapons get special rules these days similar to the ones we are mentioning. I REALLY want to see a big shoota go to 5 shots -1AP and if we add a special rule that says the unit getting shot isn't allowed overwatch....at that point we are easily as good as Heavy Bolters on a BS5+ unit. I would probably further refine it to be "If a unit is targeted by this weapon it may not overwatch the unit shooting it". That way we don't give accidental buffs to other units like Deffkoptas and other units capable of taking Big Shootas. And this would have the added bonus of making boyz mobz actually want to take the damn things

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Denmark

I really hope that the killkannon gets a significant boost in firepower. It needs to have something like Heavy 2d6 Blast at 36" at its current price point to even be remotely viable.

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 Bonde wrote:
I really hope that the killkannon gets a significant boost in firepower. It needs to have something like Heavy 2d6 Blast at 36" at its current price point to even be remotely viable.


Honestly...there is no amount of buffs that would work for a killkannon, its either too good or too bad. 2D6 sounds a lot better for its price of 15pts but that averages 7 shots and 2.7 hits a turn. Even that is...pathetic really. A Battlecannon used by IG is 5pts (A lot of the cost is baked into the Leman Russ) has 72' range, same stats except D3 dmg instead of flat 2. Its basically 2D6 already thanks to its special rules. It averages 7 shots and 3.5 hits a turn

A leman russ without its weapons is 140pts for T8 12 wounds and 3+ save at BS4.
A BattleWagon without its weapons is 135pts for T7 16 wounds and 4+ save at BS5

Durability wise its a toss up but I give it to the Leman russ due to T8 if nothing else. Ballistic skill wise its not even a contest and special rules? The BW has 1, its an open topped transport. the LR has a couple that magnify its ranged dmg. Now keep in mind, the BW is absolutely paying for its large transport capacity, but not to the extent that its deserves to be less tough, less armor, less BS, more points for a worse weapon etc. Kannonz should be free and a KillKannon should be a 5pt upgrade, and even than its questionable with 2D6 shots due to the limited transport capacity that it has when taken.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Just gonna put this out there. So far we have 2 shoota class weapons given a half range +1 to hit rule, the "relic" deffstorm megashoota and the Killtank Gigashoota. Reckon they will port that rule over to the big, supa and regular shoota? Outside of stat changes it would do a decent bit to up the killing, especially if you add in the changes to DDD that I expect will happen. (Additional hit rather than additional hit roll to keep up with the other factions)
   
Made in dk
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Denmark

SemperMortis wrote:
 Bonde wrote:
I really hope that the killkannon gets a significant boost in firepower. It needs to have something like Heavy 2d6 Blast at 36" at its current price point to even be remotely viable.


Honestly...there is no amount of buffs that would work for a killkannon, its either too good or too bad. 2D6 sounds a lot better for its price of 15pts but that averages 7 shots and 2.7 hits a turn. Even that is...pathetic really. A Battlecannon used by IG is 5pts (A lot of the cost is baked into the Leman Russ) has 72' range, same stats except D3 dmg instead of flat 2. Its basically 2D6 already thanks to its special rules. It averages 7 shots and 3.5 hits a turn

A leman russ without its weapons is 140pts for T8 12 wounds and 3+ save at BS4.
A BattleWagon without its weapons is 135pts for T7 16 wounds and 4+ save at BS5

Durability wise its a toss up but I give it to the Leman russ due to T8 if nothing else. Ballistic skill wise its not even a contest and special rules? The BW has 1, its an open topped transport. the LR has a couple that magnify its ranged dmg. Now keep in mind, the BW is absolutely paying for its large transport capacity, but not to the extent that its deserves to be less tough, less armor, less BS, more points for a worse weapon etc. Kannonz should be free and a KillKannon should be a 5pt upgrade, and even than its questionable with 2D6 shots due to the limited transport capacity that it has when taken.


Making it heavy 2D6 and a 5 point upgrade would make sense as part of the price for the killkannon already is the reduction in transport capacity.
Now if we were able to use stratagems on units embarked on a transport, we could have lootas, tankbustas or flash gitz shooting more effectively out of a battlewagon, while the 'wagon itself could contribute with its killkannon.

cody.d. wrote:
Just gonna put this out there. So far we have 2 shoota class weapons given a half range +1 to hit rule, the "relic" deffstorm megashoota and the Killtank Gigashoota. Reckon they will port that rule over to the big, supa and regular shoota? Outside of stat changes it would do a decent bit to up the killing, especially if you add in the changes to DDD that I expect will happen. (Additional hit rather than additional hit roll to keep up with the other factions)


That would also be an Orky way of increasing our BS. Firing so many shots up close should at least improve the chance to hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 08:22:44


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Tacoma, WA, USA

 Bonde wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Just gonna put this out there. So far we have 2 shoota class weapons given a half range +1 to hit rule, the "relic" deffstorm megashoota and the Killtank Gigashoota. Reckon they will port that rule over to the big, supa and regular shoota? Outside of stat changes it would do a decent bit to up the killing, especially if you add in the changes to DDD that I expect will happen. (Additional hit rather than additional hit roll to keep up with the other factions)


That would also be an Orky way of increasing our BS. Firing so many shots up close should at least improve the chance to hit.
You just made me think, that would be a decent revision for DDD. Instead of gain an attack hit roll, just +1 to Hit within 1/2 of the weapons maximum range. It would certainly be a faster rule than the current one.

But this is a thread about weapon stats, not DDD.
   
 
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