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Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 harlokin wrote:


There is an irony about the Premier League crying foul about the establishment of an 'exclusive money making cartel', when that was how and why they came into being in 1992. It's like a mobster complaining about being unfairly ousted by a more ruthless criminal.


This. It's saddening to see a sport move further away from its grass roots, but there's some something captivating about the PL complaining about introducing a franchise model, or FIFA doing some moral grandstanding.

All in I think this is inevitable. Eventually billionaires would always get bored of losing money for the prestige of owning a big club and want to make them secure investments. The most elite football is going to have a US-sport-esque model sooner or later. It's going to hurt the smaller-big clubs but I think a lot of the little teams might do better out of it eventually. The pyramid has never really done a great job of redistributing wealth, and certainly not all the way down. We'll see how national federations go about consolidating after the big teams do form their own closed shop, whether that's now or later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 12:25:28


 
   
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Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 harlokin wrote:


Yup. The thing is, the whole enterprise is financially motivated, so the clubs selected are those with the highest turnovers/net worth/fattest olligarchs.



These are the club with the highest piles of debts, in fact. That explains why Bayern (3rd club for revenue and the most financially succesful football club all over the world) was never asked to be part of them.

PSG is also another big that can survive its financial situation. Those 12 big probably can't, unless they dramatically reduce the costs, which means selling most of their players replacing them with much cheaper ones, and that's for the next 3-4 seasons at least. We're talking about 1 billion of debts! Barcelona has actually 1.2 billions.

The super league is just a way for those clubs to keep living above their possiblities.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 12:35:45


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No German clubs were, because by law fans' associations always have a controlling interest.

Paris Saint-Germain were apparently asked but turned it down. For the other big clubs, they're owned* by businesses which are being run as investment vehicles. They want predictable income to get cash from Asian billionaires.

*the club itself isn't the company - it's just one of the assets of the company. That's how Glasgow Rangers managed to keep their history when the owning company went bankrupt.
   
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Some clubs like PSG are tied by other interests. All Qatar 2022 shadiness make it impossible for Al-Khelaïfi to go against FIFA interests.
The german clubs seem like the only ones not completely caught up in the scheme.
   
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Port Carmine

VBS wrote:
Some clubs like PSG are tied by other interests. All Qatar 2022 shadiness make it impossible for Al-Khelaïfi to go against FIFA interests.
The german clubs seem like the only ones not completely caught up in the scheme.


There are whispers that FIFA has only mildy condemned the breakaway because the formation of a European Super League suits them.

FIFA want to push their World Club Championship, and this would be made easier by breaking UEFA and the Champions League's hold on club competion.

It is particularly interesting that the President of FIFA has been pushing the African football federations to establish an African Super League....

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 14:14:35


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I’m a bit confused by this whole thing. I’m not a football person and I’m not sure why it’s such a big deal, but the points raised in this thread seem to say it’s all a bit of a big money grab, but then isn’t all private business? And any sport where players can make more per week than a country’s average annual salary seems to me to be mostly about money anyway.

What really baffles me though is that this is getting reported as the lead news story for the last 2 days. I get that it’s something that a lot of people are interested in, but sport already gets its own section at every news broadcast, can we keep the sport reporting there please, and leave the rest of the news for actual news. And why are politicians (including the PM) getting involved?? How is any of this relevant to someone who isn’t interested in football, or are there other larger concerns linked to it such as business practices and corruption or monopolies, or is it just sporty sports sport stuff?

One final thing, every report I’ve read or seen in this has been about why it’s bad, but nothing at all about any possible benefits, is there really nothing good beyond liking the pockets of the owners involved, or is it just sloppy reporting?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:12:34


 
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

European Super League: Chelsea preparing to withdraw from proposed competition - BBC
   
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Fingers crossed this is it being strangled in the crib.

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United Kingdom

Aash wrote:
I’m a bit confused by this whole thing. I’m not a football person and I’m not sure why it’s such a big deal, but the points raised in this thread seem to say it’s all a bit of a big money grab, but then isn’t all private business?

Football isn't / shouldn't be private business - the money brought in by the big clubs at the top should filter down to subsidise the lower leagues. This takes a chunk of the money away, and sets up a number of clubs as better than everyone else forever.
   
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Man City seem to be confirmed as withdrawing, some suit at Man Utd is rumoured to be resigning too.

Wheels are coming off.

But then, Uefa announced they were seeking extra investment for the Champs League earlier today, so mission accomplished in all likelihood.

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United Kingdom

 Azreal13 wrote:
some suit at Man Utd is rumoured to be resigning too.


Manchester United executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward will stand down at the end of 2021. - BBC
   
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Port Carmine

Aash wrote:


What really baffles me though is that this is getting reported as the lead news story for the last 2 days.


I found it a palate cleanser from endless deep analysis of the invite list for Prince Phillip's funeral, and the ramifications and implications of the dress code....

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Devon, UK

Once we're all vaccinated and Brexit has receded into normality, BBC news is fethed.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

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United Kingdom

 harlokin wrote:
Aash wrote:


What really baffles me though is that this is getting reported as the lead news story for the last 2 days.


I found it a palate cleanser from endless deep analysis of the invite list for Prince Phillip's funeral, and the ramifications and implications of the dress code....


It's also a good smokescreen for hiding 'bad' news - such as the PM deciding he doesn't want to use his new briefing room after spending £2.6m on it...
   
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beast_gts wrote:
Aash wrote:
I’m a bit confused by this whole thing. I’m not a football person and I’m not sure why it’s such a big deal, but the points raised in this thread seem to say it’s all a bit of a big money grab, but then isn’t all private business?

Football isn't / shouldn't be private business - the money brought in by the big clubs at the top should filter down to subsidise the lower leagues. This takes a chunk of the money away, and sets up a number of clubs as better than everyone else forever.


From my limited understanding, I agree.

When the money is concentrated in just a few clubs, it’s harder for others to compete, as the top clubs (in theory) buy the best players and staff. There is of course more to forming a tight team, and there have been more than a few duff signings of note. But broadly if you can afford the best, you’re more likely to be up there than those of more limited means.


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Northumberland

Football as a sport has always been a working class game, particularly in England and Scotland. The past two decades have seen a massive upsurge in money in the game, as well as a focus on broadcasting rights.

Season ticket prices and the fact that you have to pay a gak ton of money to Rupert Murdoch means it is difficult to be able to see that sport unless you've got the money. That has been the bedrock of the current game and how it has progressed unerringly to the Super League. The amount of money means top flight footballers are paid an absurd amount of money and the bigger clubs have to generate that income.

These are rich clubs but it doesn't mean they win every game. The great thing about football is that anyone can beat anyone on a good day. That's what sells tickets, that is the hope of every fan. That is what gives fans investment and that they are part of the club. The Super League says nobody can be relegated, these clubs can always play in it because they always have money. This sets up the endless win-win cycle for them.

The reason for these clubs doing it now is that they have a worldwide fanbase, these are clubs that most people have *heard of* even if they don't know a thing about football. You see a Real Madrid or a Manchester United football shirt across the world. So the owners decide this is enough to keep them saturated.

This is something dreamt up in the boardrooms, looking at market diagrams and calculating numbers. A completely idiotic way of looking at the world. Of course football fans everywhere would be outraged at this, it's blatant greed. Of course it backfired. Now we can see the fallout as they desperately backtrack.

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Rich guess but also with lotsa debts and financial balance that means they need to monopolize biggbr share of money pool or go bust.

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Italy

Also Atletico Madrid and Barcelona are thinking about leaving the circus.

Apparently they understood that nobody wants the american way of doing sports in Europe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:

The great thing about football is that anyone can beat anyone on a good day.


And that even the biggest/richest club can be relegated into division 2 if it deserves it. Or miss a Champions League or World Cup.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:37:14


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Birmingham, UK

And now Uefa and Fifa are being painted as heroes. The pendulum swings back towards corrupt money grabbing institutions.

Money motivated the hard stance taken. It would have been nice to see such backbone when dealing with issues of racism - which is seemingly on the rise within the game.











Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Also Atletico Madrid and Barcelona are thinking about leaving the circus.

Apparently they understood that nobody wants the american way of doing sports in Europe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:

The great thing about football is that anyone can beat anyone on a good day.


And that even the biggest/richest club can be relegated into division 2 if it deserves it. Or miss a Champions League or World Cup.


Now Europe has been wrung dry the money is in Africa and Asia, and you know what they want to see? Yep Man Utd playing Real and Barca on the regular. Times are changing, habits are changing.

If the EFL went ahead, in 10 years time new fans wouldn't give a fig about LIverpool Vs Everton or West Ham fans hatred of Chelsea because of Sneaky Frank Lampard.
They wont care that Yeovil town once did well in the milk cup.

UEFA AND the big clubs have ruined the champions league. What percentage of national league winners make up the teams taking part? Its certainly not a cup based on merit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 21:47:38


 
   
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United Kingdom

All six Premier League sides leave European Super League - BBC

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 22:27:13


 
   
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So quickly despite reactions been default expected ones suggests they weren't all that serious about it. Or actually cares about what fans want and their reaction surprised them

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Italy

 Mr. Burning wrote:


Now Europe has been wrung dry the money is in Africa and Asia, and you know what they want to see? Yep Man Utd playing Real and Barca on the regular. Times are changing, habits are changing.



I don't think Asia and Africa will ever have that many viewers. Football in China for example has already bored the population and all the clubs are selling (or have already released) their top players. In Africa how many people can actually afford paying for watching football? Lol.

People want to see the competition, and games that matter. A useless Man Utd vs Barca match doesn't interest anyone, it would be nothing more than just a friendly game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
So quickly despite reactions been default expected ones suggests they weren't all that serious about it. Or actually cares about what fans want and their reaction surprised them


They probably thought that their fans would be enthusiastic about playing big matches everytime. They aren't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 06:54:55


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Saw a description on FB which seemed to sum it up.

The ESL is like a lads night out organised before anyone has asked their wives.

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Port Carmine

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Saw a description on FB which seemed to sum it up.

The ESL is like a lads night out organised before anyone has asked their wives.


Never underestimate the incompetence (incontinence ?) of people.

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European Super League: Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli says project cannot proceed - BBC

Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli says the European Super League (ESL) project cannot proceed as Inter Milan and Atletico Madrid joined the six Premier League clubs in withdrawing.
   
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 Blackie wrote:

They probably thought that their fans would be enthusiastic about playing big matches everytime. They aren't.


In closed series no match is big.

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Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

tneva82 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

They probably thought that their fans would be enthusiastic about playing big matches everytime. They aren't.


In closed series no match is big.


Well, as longs as both teams have the chance to reach the knock out stage the match has a purpose so it would actually be big. If both teams are either already qualified or couldn't possibly qualify anymore the game would be useless, and players would play it like a friendly game, probably with lots of substitues while the top players would rest. Even in "open" series a match between two big squads is meaningless and lacks any attraction if the outcome doesn't really affect the following games; in april/may it already happens in all the national championships, including top ones.

The upcoming champions league will have the same problem though as group stages with lots of squads lead to such scenarios. Tournaments that include the group stage, or even closed series with a regular season, are ok when there are 4 teams at most in each group which means 3 to 6 games in total for each team.

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 Blackie wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:


Now Europe has been wrung dry the money is in Africa and Asia, and you know what they want to see? Yep Man Utd playing Real and Barca on the regular. Times are changing, habits are changing.



I don't think Asia and Africa will ever have that many viewers. Football in China for example has already bored the population and all the clubs are selling (or have already released) their top players. In Africa how many people can actually afford paying for watching football? Lol.



Hundreds of millions.

The African middle class numbers around 310 million, has doubled in the last twenty years, and is continuing to grow.

What makes you think China has gotten bored of football? The Chinese Super League clocked its highest ever domestic viewerships last year (upwards of 30million viewers for some games). Sports broadcasters in China are aggressively buying up rights to other leagues. They obviously think it's got a way to go before it peaks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 15:33:22


 
   
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Italy

nfe wrote:


Hundreds of millions.

The African middle class numbers around 310 million, has doubled in the last twenty years, and is continuing to grow.


And do you honestly think they are paying or, they would pay in the future, SKY (or other broadcasters) fees in such numbers of hundreds of millions just to watch european football?

Take countries like Tunisia, Morocco or Egypt. There's a strong tradition about football there and millions of fans, but all the support is directed towards local teams and their stadiums are overcrowded of fans but to pay for watching a foreign team is still a luxury thing. In fact becoming fan of something or someone that has nothing to do with your country is not really easy. Selling a jersey in Africa or Asia is one thing, selling an entire competition is a whole different matter.

China tried to invest in local football and failed. As a proof of that all the top players are leaving the country, if they haven't left already, and they'll not be replaced by other players with high salaries as the clubs' owners aknowledged the costs didn't worth the investment. Chinese people still prefer individual sports, that's a cultural thing. Oh, and chinese investors want to profit with football, while in this business is hard to get the break-even. In Italy we had several chinese club owners, and all of them didn't last long, now there's just one at top levels and he's seriously considering selling the club.

Heck, even the last club that won the chinese league, Jiangsu FC, left the competition. Chinese football is in the process of being dismantled.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 18:03:35


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