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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I wouldnt mind to see Astra-militarum horde lists gun down a bunch of cheap raiders and paper-armor wyches with their mass las-gun volleys and heavy weapons (especially if they get buffed in their new codex which every faction is being)

Also will be brutal to see horde ork lists chop down some T3 space elves in close-combat

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 04:24:55


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Drukhari are incredibly strong and are indeed winning left and right, but:

- They have a few interactions that are unlikely to survive the FAQ, which are boosting them a lot.

- The gotcha factor has been already mentioned, but here it is on a completely different level. Drukhari play a completely different game compared to other factions. Their bag of tricks is plentiful.

- This is the first non-elite faction released. If you look at the meta, until now it has polarized toward taking as many elite units as possible, while progressively reducing the troops. This is a good approach against elite armies, but Drukhari are countered by troops mostly. Without troops to stop them, Drukhari are cutting through the meta like an hot knife in butter.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Currently they do seem incredibly strong and on top of that are almost hyper-focused to kill Marines which, like Harlequins, will always boost their relative power up (since this is a power armour game, always has been, always will be)

Most of that strength is just the insane cost-efficiency of a lot of their units but something like that is hard to balance with an army archetype like Drukhari. Paradoxically I don't really think they're a total glass cannon, but nor do I think their defensive bonuses make them that difficult to kill, at least on a lot of the units people are most afraid of.

It really comes down to the transports being hyper cost efficient, especially for their durability. But the army is solely reliant, from a mechanical and theme perspective, on those transports to function. In a lot of ways Drukhari need slightly undercosted transports because you basically need to take one for almost every single unit in your army. Maybe that is just the way to fix it; bump those points costs up on things like Incubi but keep the transports cheap.

There are also a few egregious FAQ issues too, specifically I think Dark Technomancers is the most obvious one since it's such an obvious no-brainer pick/choice/combination that either GW rules writers are more incompetent than previously thought or it's actually just deliberate and is signposted as being the competitive choice.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dark Technomancers is fine for a lot of stuff and ridiculous for other stuff. Seems like really poor subfaction design in that it totally cookie-cutters you into certain things, and those certain things are just ridiculously better than they are with any other trait. Subfaction traits shouldn't make certain units or wargear choices literally twice as good as they otherwise would be, that's always going to be a nightmare to balance.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
In addition to drukhari being pretty good against marines and also being new (thus having a bit of a gotcha factor) and also having a couple obviously/probably broken things (flail succubus and reaver prices), I wonder if this is partly a matter of drukhari being the first 9th edition faction out that leans hard into offense at the cost of defense.

Necrons, DG, and marines in general are all factions that I associate with defense. Drukhari have poisoned weapons that don't care about the toughness of DG, elite 'crons, and gravis units. A lot of their D1 weapons became D2. They gained a few sources of mortal wounds, and some of their existing sources got a bit better. Units that would previously have been wounding necron warriors on 4+ or 5+ can now pretty reliably do so on a 3+ or 4+ instead, and they potentially have some bonus AP splashed in there as well.

So if your army has a lot of points invested in "shields" and drukhari are pretty good at being "shield breakers," you might be getting countered a little. But drukhari are also heckin' fragile. The changes to their defenses are either pretty horizontal or else a nerf (mostly in the case of coven units). So I'm wondering how things will look when we get some other offense-heavy factions that don't invest as heavily into defense as marines do. Maybe drukhari are kind of the paper to "tough armies'" rock waiting to meet their paper?

I don't know. Newkhari definitely got a pretty big power boost (kind of lazy design imo), but the only things that really jump out at me as being too good are the million attack succubus and the reavers. Take those away, and it seems like marines ought to be able to do okay against them. Bolters wound their vehicles on 5+ and reduce their saves to a 5+ on turns 2 and 3. Heavy bolters wound their transports on a 4+ and each failed 5+ invul takes away 1/3rd of a venom's health. It feels like things ought to shake out reasonably evenly between these factions. Except 'crons. Drukhari seem well-equipped to handle those guys.


Thing is the old adage of “the best defense, is a good offense” comes into play here. It takes exactly 2 turns for most of the Drukhari army to be in your face. At that point it’s very likely many of your units will already be dead. That limits the amount units you’ll have to return damage with, meaning the drukhari army will feel a lot more durable than it is.

In that vain armies that do the best at countering dark Eldar are stuff with lots of indirect fire that can shoot the hiding drukhari stuff (IG) armies that also MSU well (sisters) armies that have units that won’t fully evaporate when hit by a Drukhari CC unit (DG, custodes), and finally Tau due to having scary overwatch.

The problem is when I say these armies have a good matchup, I mean they can win around 50% of the time. Also if you aren’t one of these armies... GL is all I’ll say.
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

 the_scotsman wrote:
drbored wrote:
What's next?

OP Sisters of Battle, followed closely by OP Orks, and so it continues.


And before that, DG had a month of super-spiked winrate, and before that, DA had one, and before that, Necrons had one...

it's wild, it's almost like a new codex leads to new surprises that hit the meta hard until people adjust to it and then the winrate drops back down.

Should GW throw in a few more codexes where they actively choose not to give an army the means to compete in tournaments like DW, would that be an improvement in your eyes?

Show me that immediate duper spiked DA win rate Scottie.

Every source has basically looked at DA for the past couple if months and constantly wondered why they haven't had a spike yet. Now, just as they finally find a build it's looking like DE will hard counter them.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

TBH I have no problem agaisnt Drukhari with my horrible firewarrior and kroot hordes Tau spam list, funny enough.

I know some of the crazy things drukhari have that need to be faqed. But the winrate of the faction, I believe, is more than they are an antimeta army designed to kill all the other meta armies of the moment. Just like Harlequins are bananas agaisnt marines, custodes, etc... but dont make a gak agaisnt ork hordes, Drukhari are basically Harlequins+ and thats saying something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 08:22:11


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





While we should wait a month or two to have meaningful numbers, I think we can agree that they need to be toned down a bit.
Otherwise, the power creep gets out of control very quickly.

There's still 17 codices and 6 supplements (7 if they release a Black Templar one) to be released in 9th...


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutching and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 10:40:25


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutchinng and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"


Well before the dark eldar got their book, the problem with this was that the supposed glass hammer faction, was also more resilient and faster, then all other factions. So it is rather case of less of the same, and we should thank GW that they didn't get an idea to give DE transports a +4inv.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Salt donkey wrote:
While the codex is still relatively new, it’s pretty apparent that the army is wildly OP . Currently sitting at a 58-18-2 or a 74% winrate (numbers stolen from a reddit post). That puts the codex at a tournament win % at around what ironhands were getting pre-any nerfs. No that’s not an exaggeration, iron hands had around a 77% win rate when their codex first dropped, meaning drukhari are only slightly worse than that book.

Some of the comes from them being a hard counter to SM (which for now make up a significant chunk of the meta) and some of that comes from armies having not adjusted to the way drukhari plays. That said it’s a lot harder to adjust to a 70% win rate army than a 60% army, because there are less weaknesses in a 70% win rate army.

So will GW nerf Drukhari. They probably should. Invalidating SM entirely might make some here on Dakka happy, but probably isn’t in the best interest of GWs $$$ line. Also many armies simply don’t have fun playing against DE. Maybe Tau like the matchup, but that by itself won’t fix that army.


Lol, they're not OP at all. Simply they're the new thing in town and they're pretty anti meta. As soon as people adapt they won't be an "issue" anymore.

GW will nerf drukhari (or release an OP SM codex 2.0) because lots of SM players want to auto-win. Deathguard for example seems as powerful at last, probably even more solid. No one is screaming "Deathguard is OP!!" though, since it's basically another power/terminator armour based army, so it's somehow entitled to bully other players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:

Show me that immediate duper spiked DA win rate Scottie.

Every source has basically looked at DA for the past couple if months and constantly wondered why they haven't had a spike yet. Now, just as they finally find a build it's looking like DE will hard counter them.


As long as everyone is tailoring against SM and most of those DA opponents are other SM, DA win rate won't be duper spiked. It doesn't mean they're worse than drukhari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 10:52:33


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I'll be curious to see where we end up after the initial metashock and the obvious broken interactions/typos, but I can see some point adjustments down the line. A succubus does not, to me, feel like a 60pt hq. She's basically the perfect character duellist, which is what she's supposed to be, but she could still accomplish that job at 80pts just as well.

Hellions similarly seem like a side-grade rather than a down-grade from the (intended cost of) reavers. They trade mobility and defense for assault ranged weapons and D2 melee weapons.

Incubi could also probably use a bit of a points bump. The frustrating thing though is how many of the initial OP combos were in the dumb 'day 1 DLC' book which was DEFINITELY not playtested as much as the content from the codex.

The Cult of Strife content from Rust is just as much of a random balance-free scattershot as the SM 2.0 supplements are, and it definitely shows there wasn't a ton of oversight to it.

"Hey, what if we put in a warlord trait that let you get 28 attacks vs common targets with a 60pt hq?

Great, we'll put that one that lets you reroll all hits, some wounds and some opposing saves right next to another one that just give reroll wounds!"

"Hey, how about 1cp for a wych unit to get their 4++ out of combat if they destroy a unit?"

"Great, that's something wyches have needed to be able to do for ages. Say, should we be concerned that you could use this for 1cp on a unit of 20 hellions that doesn't usually get a 4++ invuln save even in combat...?"

"how about a relic whip that guarantees no fall back with the new improved no escape rule that even works on titanic stuff?"

"That sounds great but only if you also include a stratagem so you can take it on a s-"

"TAKE IT ON A SERGEANT jinx, hahah, don't worry that's also in there."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

Karol wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutchinng and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"


Well before the dark eldar got their book, the problem with this was that the supposed glass hammer faction, was also more resilient and faster, then all other factions. So it is rather case of less of the same, and we should thank GW that they didn't get an idea to give DE transports a +4inv.


I'm not sure who dark eldar were more resilient than, with their T3 and tee-shirt armour saves.

I'd say the problem with them before the 9th edition codex was that they were less of a glass hammer and more of a glass feather-duster.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Crispy78 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutchinng and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"


Well before the dark eldar got their book, the problem with this was that the supposed glass hammer faction, was also more resilient and faster, then all other factions. So it is rather case of less of the same, and we should thank GW that they didn't get an idea to give DE transports a +4inv.


I'm not sure who dark eldar were more resilient than, with their T3 and tee-shirt armour saves.

I'd say the problem with them before the 9th edition codex was that they were less of a glass hammer and more of a glass feather-duster.


Probably referring to the fact that if you specifically compare weaponry that's way stronger than is necessary to harm a Raider a Raider is more durable for its points than a Rhino. That's had SM players whining since basically the 8th ed drukhari dex - the fact that instead of raiders just being strictly less tough against everything they're actually more tough vs high-powered antitank weaponry and less tough vs mid-strength anti-light vehicle weaponry.

The ideal gun to bring to the table vs drukhari is an autocannon profile. Wounds every vehicle on a 3, and only one multiwound unit in the entire codex has an armor save 2 better than its invuln save, so AP-1 is all you need.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
I'll be curious to see where we end up after the initial metashock and the obvious broken interactions/typos, but I can see some point adjustments down the line. A succubus does not, to me, feel like a 60pt hq. She's basically the perfect character duellist, which is what she's supposed to be, but she could still accomplish that job at 80pts just as well.

Hellions similarly seem like a side-grade rather than a down-grade from the (intended cost of) reavers. They trade mobility and defense for assault ranged weapons and D2 melee weapons.

Incubi could also probably use a bit of a points bump. The frustrating thing though is how many of the initial OP combos were in the dumb 'day 1 DLC' book which was DEFINITELY not playtested as much as the content from the codex.

The Cult of Strife content from Rust is just as much of a random balance-free scattershot as the SM 2.0 supplements are, and it definitely shows there wasn't a ton of oversight to it.

"Hey, what if we put in a warlord trait that let you get 28 attacks vs common targets with a 60pt hq?

Great, we'll put that one that lets you reroll all hits, some wounds and some opposing saves right next to another one that just give reroll wounds!"

"Hey, how about 1cp for a wych unit to get their 4++ out of combat if they destroy a unit?"

"Great, that's something wyches have needed to be able to do for ages. Say, should we be concerned that you could use this for 1cp on a unit of 20 hellions that doesn't usually get a 4++ invuln save even in combat...?"

"how about a relic whip that guarantees no fall back with the new improved no escape rule that even works on titanic stuff?"

"That sounds great but only if you also include a stratagem so you can take it on a s-"

"TAKE IT ON A SERGEANT jinx, hahah, don't worry that's also in there."


Agreed that the day 1 DLC made no sense whatsoever. Everything else in that book forced armies to take massive restrictions to get their buffs, but cult of strife gets a ton of OP stuff for free. Honestly this could be an easy fix right here. Just restrict these buffs to an army that only takes cult of strife units or possibly a no mercenaries restriction instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to those complaining that calling drukhari OP is the same as everyone calling DG, DA, SM OP, you’re just straight up using false equivalency.

All those armies were called OP purely on perception, but never had winrates to match this. People keep bringing up the “let the meta adjust” and use these armies as examples, but none of these broke a 60% win rates. Furthermore dark Eldar are far more complex than these armies. We’ve already seen that there are plenty of trap units and builds. As more people realize what the the best lists are, we’ll stop seeing as many 3-3 drukhari lists and more 5-1 and 6-0.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 11:57:05


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






...All your data is from like, one weekend. AND the community has realized that there are obvious unintended rules interactions - unless you think it's likely that someone at GW actually considered the 'attack quadrupling' interaction between Competitive Edge and Razorflails.

What I'm saying is, I wouldn't be surprised if even after the meta adjusts to the presence of drukhari and the obvious unintentional stuff is 2-week FAQed out, they still required some points adjustments to be fair, but I dont' actually have any of that data until we start actually seeing them perform in tournaments bigger than 'the 23 person qualifier round for the bigger grand tournament in podunk kentucky 3 days after the codex dropped when nobody but the drukhari player had read it thoroughly.' I don't know if we can actually compare the performance of drukhari in the first week to another strong 'dex's first week performance - like, how was Death Guard looking in the 7 days after its codex launched? Do we actually know? Them and Necrons are the only other factions that really fundamentally shifted the playstyle to something people were unfamiliar with - every marine codex/supplement in 9th was basically just a solidification of what marines had been doing for a year and a half before that nobody else got to have any kind of answer for.

Fundamentally, drukhari are doing something that very few armies currently in the meta are doing - a massed assault out of efficient transport vehicles, though I suppose maybe the current meta bloody rose sisters lists are doing that IDK - and that directly feths with the current meta trend of heavy, expensive elite infantry units out of transports that are used to carving through unprotected infantry and expensive units. They also happen to have some highly efficient damage flat 2 options, which obviously hoses the dominant meta armies of marines and custodes pretty hard as well

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:22:40


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've always been advocate for "Campaign book rules ONLY usable in Campaign Games."

I believe this is actually the intent, but GW stops short of printing that because sales.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'm noticing a pattern:

-New codex is announced. Previews and leaks trickle out: Players of faction lament "Oh no! We're going to suck! Why did they change that? And that?"

-Codex is leaked in full/released: Players of faction rejoice "This is great! We're actually good again! Huzzah!"

-Armies using new codex start showing up at tournaments and flgs: Meta is unprepared for army with new forms of offensive/defensive stats and abilities. Faction wins a lot. Players of other factions despair "OP! OP! OP! NERF! NERF! NEERRFF!"

-Meta adjusts to new codex. Win rate comes down to reasonable levels.

-New codex is announced.........


2nd last is rather: next op codex gets released. Op codex stops competing when even more op comes. And gw pulled all limiters from power creep

2021 painted/bought: 506/499 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





bat702 wrote:
Gadzilla, you aren't wrong, but I see it more as games-workshop teasing you with codex releases to key word "tempt" players to buy new armies. As each new army could easily generate 1k in revenue. The tease part is indicated in the slow and purposely rules updates/balance changes/ ie new codexes. I would even argue they can't even get simple stuff right, and are making all kinds of typos in their updates just to feign being dumb to fool us even more.


Ok, so I initially took your COVID engineering comment to be tongue in cheek, but it appears you're being serious. You aren't being serious are you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Give it a month and a few actual big events. If they're still performing similar a month from now - especially after the FAQ presumably fixes the dumbest thing in the book - it'll be fair to start concluding they really are a problem.


Agreed. We're a bit late for the 2 week FAQ as well it seems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 14:00:26


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Outside of torpedo succubus and super drazar...they really arent that impressive.

They are fast and hit hard - but they die quickly. You will find as the "meta" is going to shift pretty soon to take all comers list because...every army requires different weapons to kill.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Salt donkey wrote:
Thing is the old adage of “the best defense, is a good offense” comes into play here. It takes exactly 2 turns for most of the Drukhari army to be in your face. At that point it’s very likely many of your units will already be dead. That limits the amount units you’ll have to return damage with, meaning the drukhari army will feel a lot more durable than it is.

In that vain armies that do the best at countering dark Eldar are stuff with lots of indirect fire that can shoot the hiding drukhari stuff (IG) armies that also MSU well (sisters) armies that have units that won’t fully evaporate when hit by a Drukhari CC unit (DG, custodes), and finally Tau due to having scary overwatch.

The problem is when I say these armies have a good matchup, I mean they can win around 50% of the time. Also if you aren’t one of these armies... GL is all I’ll say.


This is pretty much why I built the hexmark in optional deepstriking into my list. If they're crossing to my side I'm jumping to theirs and hopefully I have enough good shooting to take them out. I've been getting paired up with mostly custodes on TTS though.

   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutching and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"

"My army is totally balanced, Drukhari players have a 70% win rate because we are so much better than all the other players.

Why can't some armies just be allowed to be as strong as they happen to be and by some armies I mean my army and by as strong as they happen to be I mean OP, because if they were weak I'd be raging."
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Salt donkey wrote:
All those armies were called OP purely on perception, but never had winrates to match this. People keep bringing up the “let the meta adjust” and use these armies as examples, but none of these broke a 60% win rates. Furthermore dark Eldar are far more complex than these armies. We’ve already seen that there are plenty of trap units and builds. As more people realize what the the best lists are, we’ll stop seeing as many 3-3 drukhari lists and more 5-1 and 6-0.


I am having a hard time sourcing the indicated win rates. I'm not seeing much on BCP aside from an unfinished GT.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
Outside of torpedo succubus and super drazar...they really arent that impressive.

They are fast and hit hard - but they die quickly. You will find as the "meta" is going to shift pretty soon to take all comers list because...every army requires different weapons to kill.


Ok, sorry, I admit I was 100% wrong, Drukhari are unbeatable OP and need hotfix point adjustments in the 2-week FAQ. Sorry everybody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutching and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"

"My army is totally balanced, Drukhari players have a 70% win rate because we are so much better than all the other players.

Why can't some armies just be allowed to be as strong as they happen to be and by some armies I mean my army and by as strong as they happen to be I mean OP, because if they were weak I'd be raging."


Drukhari have a 70% winrate because that appears to just be some thing some guy said without actual proof based purely on like 3 20-person events that have occurred in the ~2 weeks since the codex was released.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 14:39:29


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




We go through this same song and dance almost every single time a new codex comes out. "Faction x's new codex is OP, unbeatable, needs major nerfing" Of course a new codex is often going to look really good, especially in comparison to an 8th edition codex. It's the new hotness, the flavor of the month. There's always going to be a really good combo or strat that gets highlighted but you just need to give the meta time to figure them out like every other new codex.

From what I've heard from most codex reviews the Drukhari codex is actually pretty reasonably balanced for the most part. Yes, they're fast and hit very hard, but they're also made of wet toilet paper, they're supposed to be a glass cannon army. Also none of their faction secondaries are particularly good, which is a big part of why 9th codexes are a boon for the factions that have them, as most of those codexes have at least 1-2 good to great faction secondaries to pick from. In my mind, I don't think they've even overtaken DG and DA as one of the top 2 factions in the game yet, I'm hesitant to even put them above Sisters. In any case, I'm fully expecting to see another thread about people complaining about how OP the new Ad Mech codex is next month. Set your watches to it!
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Mr. Funktastic wrote:
We go through this same song and dance almost every single time a new codex comes out. "Faction x's new codex is OP, unbeatable, needs major nerfing" Of course a new codex is often going to look really good, especially in comparison to an 8th edition codex. It's the new hotness, the flavor of the month. There's always going to be a really good combo or strat that gets highlighted but you just need to give the meta time to figure them out like every other new codex.

From what I've heard from most codex reviews the Drukhari codex is actually pretty reasonably balanced for the most part. Yes, they're fast and hit very hard, but they're also made of wet toilet paper, they're supposed to be a glass cannon army. Also none of their faction secondaries are particularly good, which is a big part of why 9th codexes are a boon for the factions that have them, as most of those codexes have at least 1-2 good to great faction secondaries to pick from. In my mind, I don't think they've even overtaken DG and DA as one of the top 2 factions in the game yet, I'm hesitant to even put them above Sisters. In any case, I'm fully expecting to see another thread about people complaining about how OP the new Ad Mech codex is next month. Set your watches to it!


^there actualy already is one, seems the general opinion is that because Ironstrider Balistarii are getting better weaponry than a somewhat comparable unit (sentinels) still using a completely unchanged Index-era statline, Admech will be broken op busted.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 vict0988 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
"9th ed glass hammer faction does more damage than non-glass hammer armies"

Cue fauxrage, pearl clutching and neckbeard pulling....."Oh the power creep, won't someone please, think of the children?!?"

"My army is totally balanced, Drukhari players have a 70% win rate because we are so much better than all the other players.

Why can't some armies just be allowed to be as strong as they happen to be and by some armies I mean my army and by as strong as they happen to be I mean OP, because if they were weak I'd be raging."


we don't have real stats yet, and very little people adapted their lists to deal with more than PEQs

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
We go through this same song and dance almost every single time a new codex comes out. "Faction x's new codex is OP, unbeatable, needs major nerfing" Of course a new codex is often going to look really good, especially in comparison to an 8th edition codex. It's the new hotness, the flavor of the month. There's always going to be a really good combo or strat that gets highlighted but you just need to give the meta time to figure them out like every other new codex.

From what I've heard from most codex reviews the Drukhari codex is actually pretty reasonably balanced for the most part. Yes, they're fast and hit very hard, but they're also made of wet toilet paper, they're supposed to be a glass cannon army. Also none of their faction secondaries are particularly good, which is a big part of why 9th codexes are a boon for the factions that have them, as most of those codexes have at least 1-2 good to great faction secondaries to pick from. In my mind, I don't think they've even overtaken DG and DA as one of the top 2 factions in the game yet, I'm hesitant to even put them above Sisters. In any case, I'm fully expecting to see another thread about people complaining about how OP the new Ad Mech codex is next month. Set your watches to it!


^there actualy already is one, seems the general opinion is that because Ironstrider Balistarii are getting better weaponry than a somewhat comparable unit (sentinels) still using a completely unchanged Index-era statline, Admech will be broken op busted.


Not surprising ever since some of the datasheet leaks and weapons previews came out lol. For all we know Ironstriders might not get Core so they probably won't get Cawl rerolls anymore and all their Cognis weapons are assault now so if the Mars canticle stays the same they wouldn't benefit from it, and there's no guarantee they're keeping their +1 to wound stratagem, so if they want to stay competitive they would've needed a buff to their weapons and statlines. And in comparing them to IG Sentinels, it's a completely unfair comparison to compare a 9th codex unit to an 8th codex unit to me when you're comparing a book with shiny new rules made for the new edition to a 3+ year old book with rules made for a different edition. Just more people with their knee jerk reactions without having the whole picture to work with.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Salt donkey wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
In addition to drukhari being pretty good against marines and also being new (thus having a bit of a gotcha factor) and also having a couple obviously/probably broken things (flail succubus and reaver prices), I wonder if this is partly a matter of drukhari being the first 9th edition faction out that leans hard into offense at the cost of defense.

Necrons, DG, and marines in general are all factions that I associate with defense. Drukhari have poisoned weapons that don't care about the toughness of DG, elite 'crons, and gravis units. A lot of their D1 weapons became D2. They gained a few sources of mortal wounds, and some of their existing sources got a bit better. Units that would previously have been wounding necron warriors on 4+ or 5+ can now pretty reliably do so on a 3+ or 4+ instead, and they potentially have some bonus AP splashed in there as well.

So if your army has a lot of points invested in "shields" and drukhari are pretty good at being "shield breakers," you might be getting countered a little. But drukhari are also heckin' fragile. The changes to their defenses are either pretty horizontal or else a nerf (mostly in the case of coven units). So I'm wondering how things will look when we get some other offense-heavy factions that don't invest as heavily into defense as marines do. Maybe drukhari are kind of the paper to "tough armies'" rock waiting to meet their paper?

I don't know. Newkhari definitely got a pretty big power boost (kind of lazy design imo), but the only things that really jump out at me as being too good are the million attack succubus and the reavers. Take those away, and it seems like marines ought to be able to do okay against them. Bolters wound their vehicles on 5+ and reduce their saves to a 5+ on turns 2 and 3. Heavy bolters wound their transports on a 4+ and each failed 5+ invul takes away 1/3rd of a venom's health. It feels like things ought to shake out reasonably evenly between these factions. Except 'crons. Drukhari seem well-equipped to handle those guys.


Thing is the old adage of “the best defense, is a good offense” comes into play here. It takes exactly 2 turns for most of the Drukhari army to be in your face. At that point it’s very likely many of your units will already be dead. That limits the amount units you’ll have to return damage with, meaning the drukhari army will feel a lot more durable than it is.

In that vain armies that do the best at countering dark Eldar are stuff with lots of indirect fire that can shoot the hiding drukhari stuff (IG) armies that also MSU well (sisters) armies that have units that won’t fully evaporate when hit by a Drukhari CC unit (DG, custodes), and finally Tau due to having scary overwatch.

The problem is when I say these armies have a good matchup, I mean they can win around 50% of the time. Also if you aren’t one of these armies... GL is all I’ll say.


I think Custodes and DG are both better than 50% against them, once their comps adjust for the meta. Custodes have incredibly easy access to Hurricane Bolters, an extra fight interrupt, high leadership (to stop Tormentors), damage reduction and more 3++ than anyone else. DG have good T, lots of flamers, indirect fire and solid fight lasts. Mortarion, on any terrain where he is safe in his deployment zone, is incredibly powerful against DE. Soup for warptime and he's a nightmare. AdMech already looks to be very strong against them and might get better.

It's going to change the meta for sure. I'm not ready to say it's unbalanced though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 15:20:56


 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I don't know how strong they are, I am just making fun of harlokin for his post.

Besides some people will keep moving the goalpost and will never accept a nerf to their army. It is possible to both accept that we don't know yet and accept that it looks like Drukhari are going to be the best faction until the next codex comes out instead of strawmanning the people that say Drukhari are too good.
   
 
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