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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Gnarlly wrote:
Continuously increasing unit and weapon lethality with each codex update, IGOUGO instead of alternating activations, standard weapons being able to shoot over halfway across the table (ex. 30" bolt rifles), and decreased board sizes. It's no surprise that first turn advantage is huge in this game.


Ding ding ding we have a winner! Trash core rules are the cause of Alpha Strikes being so effective. Remember how we had that one strat last edition that gave your army cover? Any game designer for another game would've laughed at you for creating such a bandaid. Proof GW doesn't understand their own game when they create "fixes".

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




It's a big problem and it will probably lead to a stat reset in 10th ed. You can't inflate unit and weapon stats forever with a D6 system and a statblock ranging from 1-10.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





The only core rules there are IGOUGO and decreased board sizes, the latter of which has the least impact on the prevalence of alpha strikes.

If guns were 12-18" with 24+ being a rarity and movement was 6-12" with advance + shoot/charge being a rarity we'd see a lot less alpha strikes than if we raised the board size.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Daedalus81 wrote:
RandomHeretic wrote:
I really have not found more terrain helps against speed. More terrain helps against slow armies and castles.


Entirely depends on the opponent. If it is the DE DT list and they're going to bee-line to your DZ then you need to reduce your footprint. If they're just going mid there should be enough to keep them from getting too many good angles.


That is one sort of threat DE pose. But you can also get boats full of trueborn with the 18" blasters out of their obsession where they can go crazy distances and still get range to hit you pretty hard. And like I mentioned above things like drop pods don't really care how much terrain you have. Or a lot of kraken Tyranid lists, slaanesh demon lists, etc. that are charging you turn 1.

More terrain is a bit of a trope. Lots of people use the WTC standard. Even when that is not the case the average game I play or watch often has between 12 and 18 pieces of good line of sight blocking terrain. That is great unless you are against speed. Fast armies that get the first turn can still put out a devastating alpha strike.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

 Gnarlly wrote:
...standard weapons being able to shoot over halfway across the table (ex. 30" bolt rifles), and decreased board sizes.


When will we see 40k Crossfire!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_(miniatures_game)
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Quite funny, I have somewhat the same and the opposite experience... terrain does prevent shooting alpha strikes, but it really enables melee alphastrikes.
All that obscuring terrain makes it that much easier for fast melee units to close in, surround, box in and kill the shooting army.
If you dont have obscuring terrain - yes, then you have a problem if you play on planet bowling ball.
But so far every time, no matter how far back I deployed, if I used screens or not - I always got trounced by SW because - well, TWC are fast, durable and are basically tactical nukes. Drop pods just ignore terrain. Anything else that deep strikes ignores terrain as well.
Classic shooting does not seem to be the meta, at least in my circles, anymore because everyone is so scared of getting shot of the table that the pendulum swings right round back.
Its a blowout in either way because one mistake in movement/ability to draw LOS means death.
Yes, lethality needs to go down. But that wont happen this edition because the tone is set and there is no going back without fething over armies that come after the realisation has set in.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's the natural consequence of speed increasing, lethality increasing, range staying the same, and the board size decreasing. Terrain fixes things against static gunlines, but not against much else.

But GW doesn't seem to think this is a problem. If you look at AOS, GW's other big game and its newer one, alpha strikes are *wildly* more powerful than in 40k, and the "balance" is that the player who gets alphaed then has a 55% chance to get two turns in a row. This means most games are over by T3, and many games are over by the middle of T2.

9th edition so far has been all about lethality creep, so it's hard to see anything changing on this front. I've predicted for a while now that the selling line for 10th will be a full stat reset (and that the same people who cheered stat inflation in 9th as genius will be cheering the reset in 10th as genius too).
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes used to be able to Alpha strike, until we forgot how, in the great Forgetting. Almost like how we forgot how to use Bolter Discipline, and Shock assault, and They shall know no fear. We should just let the IF guard the damned palace.

Custodies were honestly just a bad idea to bring into the regular 40k gameplay. They pigeonholed the majority or elite imperial units just by bringing them in. Now - are they expected to have every special rule marines have plus their own special abilities? It was just a bad idea. Custodians in game now just function in the same areas that marines do - sharing many units...but the custodian ones just have to be better?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Thairne wrote:

Classic shooting does not seem to be the meta, at least in my circles, anymore because everyone is so scared of getting shot of the table that the pendulum swings right round back.
Its a blowout in either way because one mistake in movement/ability to draw LOS means death.
Yes, lethality needs to go down. But that wont happen this edition because the tone is set and there is no going back without fething over armies that come after the realisation has set in.

twc at least can't go up stairs and have problems with terrain. If the table has enough LoS blockers, there is no way of stopping a skimmer heavy army like harlequins or DE from charging what ever they want. But I think that alfa strike and first turn adventage is just how w40k is, will be and probably always was.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Xenomancers wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes used to be able to Alpha strike, until we forgot how, in the great Forgetting. Almost like how we forgot how to use Bolter Discipline, and Shock assault, and They shall know no fear. We should just let the IF guard the damned palace.

Custodies were honestly just a bad idea to bring into the regular 40k gameplay. They pigeonholed the majority or elite imperial units just by bringing them in. Now - are they expected to have every special rule marines have plus their own special abilities? It was just a bad idea. Custodians in game now just function in the same areas that marines do - sharing many units...but the custodian ones just have to be better?


What the hell are you even talking about? For one, why do marines have to be the best at everything in the imperium? And second, custodes are not, and don't have to be marines+, they are quite different in their lore and quite different in their playstyle.
I'm sorry that this is off topic, but I can't stand these baseless, hyperbolic posts.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Thairne wrote:

Yes, lethality needs to go down. But that wont happen this edition because the tone is set and there is no going back without fething over armies that come after the realisation has set in.

It was set in 8th, though. Lethality was already a problem, 9th tweaked the core rules and then (as usual) the codex releases doubled down on the existing problem.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





RandomHeretic wrote:

That is one sort of threat DE pose. But you can also get boats full of trueborn with the 18" blasters out of their obsession where they can go crazy distances and still get range to hit you pretty hard. And like I mentioned above things like drop pods don't really care how much terrain you have. Or a lot of kraken Tyranid lists, slaanesh demon lists, etc. that are charging you turn 1.

More terrain is a bit of a trope. Lots of people use the WTC standard. Even when that is not the case the average game I play or watch often has between 12 and 18 pieces of good line of sight blocking terrain. That is great unless you are against speed. Fast armies that get the first turn can still put out a devastating alpha strike.


Flayed Skull? Yea. Black Heart has it better though, I think. They can advance and charge turn 1. Snares, trophies, and prow. 235 points and a couple CP for the whole package. A couple of blaster shots on top of a couple lances isn't going to break anything open without some bad luck though.

Aethersails should probably not allow charging and Prow should probably cap MW like other armies.

All that said this requires the boat to be out in the open turn 1. If they don't go first I know which boat I might pop first. And this is a zoomed in picture of the alpha strike situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
But GW doesn't seem to think this is a problem. If you look at AOS, GW's other big game and its newer one, alpha strikes are *wildly* more powerful than in 40k, and the "balance" is that the player who gets alphaed then has a 55% chance to get two turns in a row. This means most games are over by T3, and many games are over by the middle of T2.


Is there a source for this claim? I don't play AoS so I have nothing to go by.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 16:59:27


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I'll say it again.


Lethality in 9th is in general lower than in 8th outside meele over compensation and multimelta bonanza.

The removal of easy to access rerrolls of all to hit and to wound and some of the more absurd wombo combos of 8th lowered the offensive output of most armies with proper 9th books.

Do Death Guard really feel that much more lethal? Do Necrons feel extremely lethal? Do space marines outside melta spam and some meele heavy builds feel more letal than 8th parking lots with full rerrolls of everything?

The most lethal armies are right now Drukhari (Yeah we all know why), Sisters of Battle (They were bananas in 8th and are just the same in 9th), Harlequines (Another 8th army favoured by 9th missions and tables) and Adeptus Mechanicus with some PA builds spamming mortals with electrorpiests, mars full rerrolls, etc...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
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Fayetteville NC

Terrain seems to be a significant mitigating factor; second would be the ability to premeasure to mitigate turn 1 assault as much as possible. I finished a 5 round event this weekend with Craftworlds and lost a single unit on turn 1 in just one game. It was fairly difficult on both sides to get turn 1 kills.

Whoah....I have played 40K for over 30 years.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
But GW doesn't seem to think this is a problem. If you look at AOS, GW's other big game and its newer one, alpha strikes are *wildly* more powerful than in 40k, and the "balance" is that the player who gets alphaed then has a 55% chance to get two turns in a row. This means most games are over by T3, and many games are over by the middle of T2.


Is there a source for this claim? I don't play AoS so I have nothing to go by.


Uh...the core rules for the game?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






You know something?

I actually think everything having slightly inflated stats is a good thing.

I think having marines at W2, necrons at W1 with very strong res prots and sisters being cheap W1 low T good sv, Orks at T5 sv6+, nids as a high toughness high wounds low sv army, death guard at W2 -1 to damage, daemons and harlequins with invulns, eldar and drukhari with hit modifiers, and GSC and Guard with super overwhelmingly good cheap numbers is a better baseline place for the game to be than having basically 2 types of unit: GEQ and MEQ that you might want to shoot.

A lot of the problem of early editions and 8th was that you had

-cheapo infantry unit
-elite infantry unit
-medium vehicle
Almost identical in MASSIVE abundance, and then a couple weirdos with unusual statlines and abilities that bucked the trend, but a TON of units that just followed the trend.

That obviously leads to certain weapons being automatically the best to bring in a tac list, and other potential statlines being just totally ignored because everybody needs an antitank weapon and everybody needs that antitank weapon to be a strength value between 8 and 9, good ap, and good damage.

toughness, wounds, and save, have always just kind of gone up at the same time with very little exception, and therefore weapon profiles have just done the same thing. Ther'es no need for a high strength low AP high damage weapon - every hard target has a good sv. theres little use for a low strength high AP weapon when almost everything with good armor has good toughness.

Could we use a toning down in the damage department in general? Yes. Is accomplishing that toning down by introducing new and unusual defenses into the game a bad thing? No, I think its the best way to go tbh.

Going back to where a sister a necron, a marine, and a heavy aspect warrior have almost exactly the same statline as each other would be bad for the game. Explore the space.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





yukishiro1 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
But GW doesn't seem to think this is a problem. If you look at AOS, GW's other big game and its newer one, alpha strikes are *wildly* more powerful than in 40k, and the "balance" is that the player who gets alphaed then has a 55% chance to get two turns in a row. This means most games are over by T3, and many games are over by the middle of T2.


Is there a source for this claim? I don't play AoS so I have nothing to go by.


Uh...the core rules for the game?


Yea, but like data?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
I'll say it again.


Lethality in 9th is in general lower than in 8th outside meele over compensation and multimelta bonanza.

The removal of easy to access rerrolls of all to hit and to wound and some of the more absurd wombo combos of 8th lowered the offensive output of most armies with proper 9th books.

Do Death Guard really feel that much more lethal? Do Necrons feel extremely lethal? Do space marines outside melta spam and some meele heavy builds feel more letal than 8th parking lots with full rerrolls of everything?

The most lethal armies are right now Drukhari (Yeah we all know why), Sisters of Battle (They were bananas in 8th and are just the same in 9th), Harlequines (Another 8th army favoured by 9th missions and tables) and Adeptus Mechanicus with some PA builds spamming mortals with electrorpiests, mars full rerrolls, etc...


This and this some more. One thing I notice most when playing Sisters and Custodes are all the god damn rerolls. Though I am sure Sisters will retain those and lose elsewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 17:14:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I guess I'm not sure what data you're asking for. Data to support what? That AOS armies have a lot of alpha strike potential? Or that most games are effectively over by T3?

I'm not saying anything remotely controversial here. Anyone who plays AOS knows it's a game that tends to be over quickly unless both armies are very defensive in nature, that it's not at all unusual for games to effectively be over by the middle of T2, and that most games will be effectively over in terms of determining a victor by the end of T3.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





I will chime in my opinion from experience again - terrain is the quickest & fairest fix for dealing with lethality in the game, including but not limited to alpha strikes.

99% of batreps online play on boards that resemble example #2 in BRB (which even GW notes it's not suitable for matched play games).

In my experience (as I always argue for boards resembling example #1 & 3), terrain placement denies anywhere from 40~50% of alpha strike lethality due to lack of room to place units in napoleon-esque stand off.
   
Made in us
I'll Be Back




I agree with everyone saying terrain fixes this. I've yet to lose more than a few scarabs or warriors to turn 1 shooting and charges, maybe half a doom stalker if they focus fire. Compared to 8th where it felt like who ever went first had a huge advantage.

Most boards I see people play on are too empty, with just a couple obscuring pieces in the center, maybe an obstacle or barricade in a DZ. Dense terrain with difficult ground helps fix that which obscuring can't.
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






well the problem with terrain preventing alpha strikes then is that it enables beta strikes.
T1 often means that large parts of, if not everything, is out of LOS. That means all you can do is move up and position yourselves on the objectives to actually score next turn. This then means that the player that goes second gets his version of an alpha strike because in all essence HE has the first shooting thurn of any merit.
Its the classic game of chicken - he who pokes out get charged/shot first and therefore loses a good chunk of his army. It pretty much is forced by the mission design and the "take and hold"-style gamepleay. You can be safe or you can score. And if you try to score, the opponent has the opportunity to strike.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




That's what turns 9th into the trading game it is. Essentially everything in the game (with a tiny handful of exceptions) dies immediately upon being targeted, so that turns the game into a series of trades. I put out my unit to destroy yours, you respond by destroying mine, then I destroy the unit that destroyed mine, etc.

To get away from the trading paradigm lethality would have to be lowered enough that moving into somewhere you can be attacked wasn't an instant death sentence for 95% of the units in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 17:47:14


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah. Just look to my post about anecdotes with terrain.

I have a >30" charge range with a unit with 10 Flat 3 damage attacks at -3 rend that hits on 2s and wounds on 2s (against marines) and rerolls 1s to wound, with access to rerolls ones to hit.

Having that movement means I have control of the game, because I will charge you if you get too close even if there's 1e300 terrain pieces on the board. In fact, more terrain helps my alpha because I can use it to position my charges so that I can't even be beta struck (using terrain divides where Shooting armies can hit but does not impede melee armies much).
   
Made in us
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yukishiro1 wrote:
That's what turns 9th into the trading game it is. Essentially everything in the game (with a tiny handful of exceptions) dies immediately upon being targeted, so that turns the game into a series of trades. I put out my unit to destroy yours, you respond by destroying mine, then I destroy the unit that destroyed mine, etc.

To get away from the trading paradigm lethality would have to be lowered enough that moving into somewhere you can be attacked wasn't an instant death sentence for 95% of the units in the game.


Yes, you will make trades, but if you plan carefully you can position to hurt them badly and then also present them with several no win choices on what to shoot. It doesn't always work - especially if they're sisters and they can power through by just dumping cherubs.

It is a flaw of IGOUGO, but not a flaw that is devoid of interaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have a >30" charge range with a unit with 10 Flat 3 damage attacks at -3 rend that hits on 2s and wounds on 2s (against marines) and rerolls 1s to wound, with access to rerolls ones to hit.


To what unit do you refer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 19:14:48


   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Daedalus81 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have a >30" charge range with a unit with 10 Flat 3 damage attacks at -3 rend that hits on 2s and wounds on 2s (against marines) and rerolls 1s to wound, with access to rerolls ones to hit.


To what unit do you refer?


Isn't that the witch succub, I could be wrong though.

In general all the armies with skimmers, that lets them ignore terrain, benefit a lot more from terrain, then a regular army

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Powerful Pegasus Knight





Oh look another problem that wouldn't be nearly as bad with a different turn structure.

The lethality is fine. The problem is that there is no way to react to it / your opponents maneuvering.
   
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have a >30" charge range with a unit with 10 Flat 3 damage attacks at -3 rend that hits on 2s and wounds on 2s (against marines) and rerolls 1s to wound, with access to rerolls ones to hit.


To what unit do you refer?


Isn't that the witch succub, I could be wrong though.

In general all the armies with skimmers, that lets them ignore terrain, benefit a lot more from terrain, then a regular army


I think it's the Keeper of Secrets
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Yes, because in a world of my opponent moves his unit from the other side of the table killing my only counter unit, or some important linch pin in the army structure with no way to stop it without automaticly losing the game by not scoring primaris, would be so much different.

The problem seems to be the size of the game GW wants people to play it at, while at the same time playing something like 500pts games is not possible for a ton of factions.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Karol wrote:

Isn't that the witch succub, I could be wrong though.

In general all the armies with skimmers, that lets them ignore terrain, benefit a lot more from terrain, then a regular army


No 30" charge there unless you're letting her sit in the boat until the next turn, but then it really isn't 30".

   
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 Thairne wrote:
well the problem with terrain preventing alpha strikes then is that it enables beta strikes.
T1 often means that large parts of, if not everything, is out of LOS. That means all you can do is move up and position yourselves on the objectives to actually score next turn. This then means that the player that goes second gets his version of an alpha strike because in all essence HE has the first shooting thurn of any merit.
Its the classic game of chicken - he who pokes out get charged/shot first and therefore loses a good chunk of his army. It pretty much is forced by the mission design and the "take and hold"-style gamepleay. You can be safe or you can score. And if you try to score, the opponent has the opportunity to strike.
Well beta strikes are only a problem if the player going first went all-in, leaving their units exposed.

Just as you say, top of turn 1 in terrain dense set up is about securing strategic positions that forces player 2 to think about how deep they can go in, how hard they need to attack, and where to focus that offensive.

In a typical 6x4 board with medium sized terrain at each 2x2 square, unless you put a good amount of units into reserve, you generally have about min. 20-30% of army exposed (also because youre setting up for rush when its your turn), and additional ~10% able to be exposed during their movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Just look to my post about anecdotes with terrain.

I have a >30" charge range with a unit with 10 Flat 3 damage attacks at -3 rend that hits on 2s and wounds on 2s (against marines) and rerolls 1s to wound, with access to rerolls ones to hit.

Having that movement means I have control of the game, because I will charge you if you get too close even if there's 1e300 terrain pieces on the board. In fact, more terrain helps my alpha because I can use it to position my charges so that I can't even be beta struck (using terrain divides where Shooting armies can hit but does not impede melee armies much).
And yes, dedicated melee units should definitely benefit from terrain as you describe. Melee units shouldn't require extra movement + move twice + roll 3d6 and pick highest for advance + charge after advance + reroll charge + pile in consolidate 6" for it to viable.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/29 20:28:57


 
   
 
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