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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saying that Aplharius Omegon is dead, permanently, is like saying Leman Russ is definitely. He went into the warp or eye of terror, I forget, and we don’t know what happened. After all this time it’s safe to say he’s dead but it’s a simple story mechanic to make you think maybe.........

The ending of alpharius omegons life or lives is part of of complicated story arc to leave you thinking maybe, it’s the same ends but much more complicated means.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Dead as a can of spam.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

We have Word of God that Omegon literally sensed Alpharius' soul snuffing out upon being killed by Dorn.

The ebin "just as planned" argument is tedious. It's "possible" that Alpharius is alive/could come back to life only in the same sense that it's "possible" that Ferrus is still alive or could come back.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 21:39:19


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 BlaxicanX wrote:
We have Word of God that Omegon literally sensed Alpharius' soul snuffing out upon being killed by Dorn.

The ebin "just as planned" argument is tedious. It's "possible" that Alpharius is alive/could come back to life only in the same sense that it's "possible" that Ferrus is still alive or could come back.

Word Of God came from the Imperial Fists fanboy that wrote a novel bordering on bad fanfiction. No gak nobody is accepting it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BlaxicanX wrote:
We have Word of God that Omegon literally sensed Alpharius' soul snuffing out upon being killed by Dorn.

Sort of. We don't actually know the exact nature of the twins' connection or exactly what Omegon was sensing. Twins in 40k are sometimes described as sharing a soul that slowly splits off into two souls over time, so it could be that. But could sufficiently thorough psychic surgery have allowed Alpharius to basically slot someone else into that connection like Indiana Jones swapping out a bag of sand before the boulder starts rolling? Could the nature of primarchs be so tied to the warp that the death of their flesh has a psychic resonance and that's what Omegon sensed? Could the symbolic, faked death have had so much psychic weight (simlar to the Solitaire who stopped a Slaaneshi invasion by losing a duel against a Blood Thirster) that that's what Omegon sensed?


The ebin "just as planned" argument is tedious. It's "possible" that Alpharius is alive/could come back to life only in the same sense that it's "possible" that Ferrus is still alive or could come back.

Eh. Except Ferrus isn't surrounded by an aura of lies, scheming and misdirection. Plus, his death gave him more gravitas and cool factor and added interesting drama to Fulgrim. Alpharius's death was out of character and lame. Given the depths of planning we see demonstrated in the first half of Praetorians of Dorn, it honestly makes more sense to me that there is a deception involved than not.

Plus, it's "canon" that all space marines see Guilliman as their spiritual liege and wish they were as cool as Ultramarines, but we were all happy to ignore that particular stinker of a lore detail. Not ignoring the equally stupid death of Alpharius seems like a petty bias against AL fans or in favor of Dorn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 04:08:05


 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
We have Word of God that Omegon literally sensed Alpharius' soul snuffing out upon being killed by Dorn.

The ebin "just as planned" argument is tedious. It's "possible" that Alpharius is alive/could come back to life only in the same sense that it's "possible" that Ferrus is still alive or could come back.

Word Of God came from the Imperial Fists fanboy that wrote a novel bordering on bad fanfiction.
Who cares. Every writer has their biases. ADB is a chaos fanboy. Abnett likes space wolves. 95% of all black library works are irredeemable trash- that doesn't change the fact that they exist and are the source material we have to work with. You don't have to like the book but it takes precedence over head canon in a discussion about the setting.

Also, a single writer does not have the authority to outright kill a Primarch in their book. That was a committee decision.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





There is no canon in 40K and some books have been authored so bad that they need to be raked with a pinch is salt. GW like to keep theirs (model release) options open and as it stand it wouldn’t need to be a full retcon to have alpharius omegon come back. Alpharius could alter and move his memory and transfer himself into other bodies. So he could be on ice in someone else’s body.

We know it’s possible to clone primarchs so he could end up back in his own clone.

There are lots of ways it could be imagined which is the way GW want it. Only Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus are dead for sure as it’s important for the whole story
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

mrFickle wrote:
There is no canon in 40K
Really? So it's possible that Space Marines don't really exist in the setting, that the Horus Heresy never happened, and that Russ is the Primarch of the Ultramarines?

mrFickle wrote:
We know it’s possible to clone primarchs so he could end up back in his own clone.

Do we really? I recall clones of Horus, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, but the Primarchs were partially created using Warp energy provided by the Chaos Gods.....so the Primarchs were more than flesh and blood, and thus quite possibly not 'properly clonable'. Consider the setting implcations of a potential "Guilliman cloning operation" ..... that would be egregious bs even by 40K standards.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





Depends on who does the cloning. Fabius Bile made almost perfect clones of every single Primarch and the Fulgrim clone was so close to pre-Chaos Fulgrim that the Emperor's Children who witnessed him swore allegiance. The clone was so perfect it even began to fall down the exact same path the original did and Fabius had to give the clone to Trazyn to prevent another fall of the EC.
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Farmington Hills

I think people are missing the point. it isn't necessarily how the AL focus on sabotage and subterfuge, although that doesn't endear them to some legions. All legions are somewhat capable of those tactics, they just choose not to employ them often.

it's more that with the AL, you always get the sense that they are using you to get to some other goal, that they are not being entirely honest with you (or even with themselves), and your brothers should be forthright about important life or death decisions.

This really rubs people in the line of fire the wrong way, and rightfully so in many cases, but to the AL they just don't care.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
There is no canon in 40K
Really? So it's possible that Space Marines don't really exist in the setting, that the Horus Heresy never happened, and that Russ is the Primarch of the Ultramarines?

mrFickle wrote:
We know it’s possible to clone primarchs so he could end up back in his own clone.

Do we really? I recall clones of Horus, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, but the Primarchs were partially created using Warp energy provided by the Chaos Gods.....so the Primarchs were more than flesh and blood, and thus quite possibly not 'properly clonable'. Consider the setting implcations of a potential "Guilliman cloning operation" ..... that would be egregious bs even by 40K standards.


There is no canon in 40K is a quote from GW I don’t like it but it proves a point that every aspect in 40K has been portrayed differently over the years and you can basically decide on what’s true in your 40K universe
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

mrFickle wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
There is no canon in 40K
Really? So it's possible that Space Marines don't really exist in the setting, that the Horus Heresy never happened, and that Russ is the Primarch of the Ultramarines?

mrFickle wrote:
We know it’s possible to clone primarchs so he could end up back in his own clone.

Do we really? I recall clones of Horus, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, but the Primarchs were partially created using Warp energy provided by the Chaos Gods.....so the Primarchs were more than flesh and blood, and thus quite possibly not 'properly clonable'. Consider the setting implcations of a potential "Guilliman cloning operation" ..... that would be egregious bs even by 40K standards.


There is no canon in 40K is a quote from GW I don’t like it but it proves a point that every aspect in 40K has been portrayed differently over the years and you can basically decide on what’s true in your 40K universe


I believe it's an ADB quote, and despite the fact that I love most of his books, he's talking out of his arse.

You can obviously decide whatever is true for you, but insofar as we discuss our shared interest in a fictional setting, some things are more or less likely to be correct by common consent. I remember when Leman Russ was an Imperial Gaurd commander, Space Marines were penal soldiers, and the Ultramarines had a half-Eldar librarian, all of which is generally regarded as nonsense now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 10:31:51


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





I find Alpharius' death at the hands of Dorn very ironic considering Dorn is pretty much the most honest and straightforward Primarch who managed to fool Alpharius into stabbing his spear to Dorn getting it stuck allowing Dorn to get a hold of Alparius and make him very familiar with Storm's Teeth at the last seconds of his life.
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
There is no canon in 40K
Really? So it's possible that Space Marines don't really exist in the setting, that the Horus Heresy never happened, and that Russ is the Primarch of the Ultramarines?

mrFickle wrote:
We know it’s possible to clone primarchs so he could end up back in his own clone.

Do we really? I recall clones of Horus, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, but the Primarchs were partially created using Warp energy provided by the Chaos Gods.....so the Primarchs were more than flesh and blood, and thus quite possibly not 'properly clonable'. Consider the setting implcations of a potential "Guilliman cloning operation" ..... that would be egregious bs even by 40K standards.


There is no canon in 40K is a quote from GW I don’t like it but it proves a point that every aspect in 40K has been portrayed differently over the years and you can basically decide on what’s true in your 40K universe


I believe it's an ADB quote, and despite the fact that I love most of his books, he's talking out of his arse.

You can obviously decide whatever is true for you, but insofar as we discuss our shared interest in a fictional setting, some things are more or less likely to be correct by common consent. I remember when Leman Russ was an Imperial Gaurd commander, Space Marines were penal soldiers, and the Ultramarines had a half-Eldar librarian, all of which is generally regarded as nonsense now.


It’s not from ADB but Marc Gascoigne while he was head of BL. But is was simultaneously ‘there is no canon’ and ‘everything is canon’.

Basically there is no omniscient narrator, everything could be clouded by in-world bias, and everything GW put out is potentially true but not necessarily true to the full extent or in the way it seems. And GW is happy for any future stories to overwrite or modify anything (or go back to the original).

Presumably the idea was to leave space for players to come up with their own stories.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





There might be canon but there is also retcon and the current canon is setup to accommodate retcon. It’s a circular argument

Alpharius is dead. But it’s could be a scheme. So if you choose to play out your version of the 40K universe where he is alive (but hidden) or dead both are true. So they are both canon. Because the canon is setup to allow fo GW to choose to make him alive or dead at the point that suits them. That’s why most of the primarchs ending is ambiguous. They just went extra lengths with AL to make the ambiguity buried harder to find
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.
   
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Atlanta, GA

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.


Now that I think about it, that strikes me as extra weird, because isn't the Pale Spear supposed to be some forgotten Necron weapon-artifact that carves through armor like it's not even there? So why'd it get stuck in Dorn's armor in the first place? Seems like a bit of an inconsistency.
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Spoiler:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.


Now that I think about it, that strikes me as extra weird, because isn't the Pale Spear supposed to be some forgotten Necron weapon-artifact that carves through armor like it's not even there? So why'd it get stuck in Dorn's armor in the first place? Seems like a bit of an inconsistency.


I was thinking the same thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 21:46:35


"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.


Now that I think about it, that strikes me as extra weird, because isn't the Pale Spear supposed to be some forgotten Necron weapon-artifact that carves through armor like it's not even there? So why'd it get stuck in Dorn's armor in the first place? Seems like a bit of an inconsistency.


I don't think it got stuck in his armour so much his body in general, since he kept it lodged in place with his hand and counterattacked. And while the Pale Spear does seem to effectively carve through everything with relative ease, Primarch physiology seems to be pretty much made to withstand things that seem to destroy almost everything else if it's not a complete decapitation blow.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.


Exactly, it doesn’t make sense, Big Al would have seen the move for what it was. The story that the master trickster gets out tricked is rubbish. By which I mean bad writing. It’s doesn’t make sense. In the same way that if lorgar and the lion had a fight and the end of the fight is that lorgar feints, knocks the lion to the floor and ran him through.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Thematically Alpharius being dead fits. The schemer Primarch being fooled in combat by the most honest and straightforward Primarch and getting killed by Dorn is thematic and ironic.


I don’t understand, dorn tricking alpharius.... that’s like lorgar besting the lion in a duel

Basically during their duel, Dorn intentionally let Alpharius hit and penetrate him with his spear. Dorn knew that the spear would get stuck lodged in himself. And that left Alpharius sort of disarmed when his spear was stuck in Dorn's shoulder. And that gave Dorn the opening he needed to make Alparius ground beef with Storm's Teeth. So the schemer Primarch got played by the most honest straightforward Primarch.


Now that I think about it, that strikes me as extra weird, because isn't the Pale Spear supposed to be some forgotten Necron weapon-artifact that carves through armor like it's not even there? So why'd it get stuck in Dorn's armor in the first place? Seems like a bit of an inconsistency.


Yeah it basically dematerialises everything it touches

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 20:10:58


 
   
Made in us
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I have a feeling that this thread is horus heresy in flavor I will state a reason that happened directly after. When the AL gave themselves to chaos (no, they are not loyalists in disguise) they proceeded to pick fights with other loyalist legions for no other reason than to prove themselves (supposed). This along with the other answers given are a good insight into why they are disliked.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Table wrote:
I have a feeling that this thread is horus heresy in flavor I will state a reason that happened directly after. When the AL gave themselves to chaos (no, they are not loyalists in disguise) they proceeded to pick fights with other loyalist legions for no other reason than to prove themselves (supposed). This along with the other answers given are a good insight into why they are disliked.


Eh. I know that some sources cite martial pride as one of the AL's major qualities, but picking fights as part of a bolter-measuring contest seems pretty at-odds with the meticulous, casualty-averse methods they're known for. And we see in the HH books that a lot of their post-betrayal actions have strategic value. They spend a lot of time trying to keep Russ and Jaghatai away from Terra, for instance. If anything, we see a lot of (admittedly pre-betrayal) actions taken to hide their accomplishments rather than boast about them. I don't really see a reason for that behavior to change just because they switched sides.

(Also, some might be "loyalists" or at least anti-chaos in disguise. Omegon's schemes against Alpharius and the reader-perceptible thoughts of the main character of Sons of the Hydra strongly suggest as much. Clearly the legion as a whole aren't secretly loyalists, but there are grounds for people thinking some might be.)
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

I think the legion today has disintegrated, the scheming advancing to party killing tendencies by the breakdown in legion support structures and exposure to madness.

And they do seem to pick fights with others to show off. Certainly it might be a resupply mission (sack a chapter HQ for example), but done in a cunning way to display mastery. One of their flaws is a desire to be acknowledged as the best whilst publicly shunning that sort of praise.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The current background seems to integrate the 2nd edition background where they were eager to prove themselves against the other Legions.

It seems to be a matter of they want their sneaky tactics and strategies to be acknowledged by others as just as good or even better, only to be then faced with what they perceived as snobbery by the older Legions. Certainly the Alpharius narrator of the Alpharius novel acknowledged the competing desires for both secrecy/subtlety and desire to be acknowledged.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 13:26:11


 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





I think one of the big points is that the Alpha Legion fight in a very odd way, especially for crusade marines. Given that space marines are knights in space, it makes sense that most valued fighting their enemies head on before anything else. Legions that have other approaches tend to get snubbed for being “lesser”. The Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors all have some sort of complaint for their alternate styles. Admittedly the Night Lords probably deserved the criticism. I think the Raven Guard received some as well and I know that attitude at least exists in the 40k time frame.

Another problem for the Alpha Legion is that they’re so secretive for no reason. They tend to hide their actual leaders, talk in codes, and generally keep everyone at a distance. The fact that they intentionally obscure everything about them just breeds distrust. Taking to “Alpharius” probably gets old really fast. Why hide something if your intentions are benign? The Dark Angels hit some of that problem too. In “Lords of Silence” the Death Guard mentions that even during the 13th Black Crusade the other traitor legions kept their vessels away from the Alpha Legion ships.

Last their methods tend to be very inefficient. The timeframe is already a problem but the real problem comes from the damage they do to a planet’s infrastructure. The subterfuge tends to bring down the civil authorities that the imperium needs to do-opt to really rule. Basically the Alpha Legion create the same stability that Cold War CIA coups tended to create.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
 
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