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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.

If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.

Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 14:36:31


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.

If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.

Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.

I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Cognitive wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.

If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.

Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.

I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.

If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.

Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.

I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.

If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.

Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.

I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.

It might sound weird, but honestly I've never really played 40k of any sorts, be it tabletop or video games (sadly, it's not quite popular in Asian countries, with the exception being Korea, but's that's not big news anyways)... hence sometimes I would miss a whole ton of references when discussing with you guys. Now, back to the topic, despite that 40k has its own inconsistent power levels, is it true that tabletop and lore often contradict each other when coming down to characters' performance against others?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
Considering Lelith defeated one of the greatest duelist of the Adeptus Astartes history, in full gear and armed with a relic blade, I believe she can take on a Custodes who, while significantly better than Space Marines, are still comparable. It would certainly be good fight though it would take a Custodian Captain to truly challenge her to her limits. Duels are basically Lelith's bread and butter. On a battlefield, she is much more vulnerable. One mistep and a guardsmen can kill her with ease. The easiest way to kill is simply to take her by surprise or overwhelm her with threats. Unlike a Custodian, a couple of well placed guards in ambush could kill her, while they would need a small miracle to kill a superhuman with a an armor comparable to that of a tank.

Was Cadulon fully armed, or did the archon stripped him of his armor?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 15:32:48


 
   
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@ Cognitive

The differences between lore and tabletop performance is often vast, sometimes due to writers not knowing the game rules and sometimes vice versa, Lelith has passable rules but currently trumped by her Succubus minions due to a combo of rules, but hey least shes not an Avatar of Khaine (a Greater Demon who gets thumped repeatedly in lore by any Iom character needed to do an awesome fight thing)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 16:15:47


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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
@ Cognitive

The differences between lore and tabletop performance is often vast, sometimes due to writers not knowing the game rules and sometimes vice versa, Lelith has passable rules but currently trumped by her Succubus minions due to a combo of rules, but hey least shes not an Avatar of Khaine (a Greater Demon who gets thumped repeatedly in lore by any Iom character needed to do an awesome fight thing)

Ahh, the legendary avatar, I literally loled every time when an avatar of Khaine makes its appearance. Eldar gods and their shard suck so much, it's almost hilarious. Regarding xeno deities though, at least the necrons' pokemons are normally potent, except for that one time one of those "pokemons" faced Cato.
   
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It brought she was supposed to be one of the most deadly close combat fighter sun the galaxy, like top 10
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






I just read a 40k novel about the custodes, "master of mankind', and based on that a typical custodes should be able top send hesperax flying so hard she becomes a smear of shattered bones and splattered flesh on the first obstacle she hits simply by letting a good fart in her general direction.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Ok, how about a more interesting fight then? Cain with his blank adjudant vs Lelith? Cain has been said to be one of the greatest swordsmen in the imperium. He single handidly took down an ork warboss, and a Black Legion Champion, in single combat, with just a chain sword. Cain has the greatest plot armor in the history of BL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 23:55:46


 
   
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In terms of what it would look like (pure fluff, choreographer's eye):

- Normally, Lelith uses her skill not just to kill, but to make it look good; in this fight, she would need all her wits, so "showmanship" is not an issue

- Lelith would land 3-4 hits per custodes hit, and they would all be perfectly placed and efficient; however, the custodes would hardly notice

- when the custodes hits back, Lelith will turn with the blow, and it will be the only thing that prevents him from gutting her; even imperfectly landed blows will do more damage to her than any one of ther blows would do to him

- when the custode misses Leltith, hey likely causes collateral damage to the environment; both fighters will seek to use this collateral damage to their advantage

- eventually, Lelith will start using more acrobatics to get behind/ inside the guard of the custode

- once Lelith carves a break in the armour, it starts to go downhill

- eventually, enough blows will get through to drop the custode, but Lelith isn't walking away unharmed
   
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Thing is, if the Custodian lands a single blow, it would be a "perfect" strike, and likely judged to be JUST enough strength to kill in the shortest order possible. This is the problem with the fluff. If both can be "Perfect fighters" all we have to go off of is strength, and The Custodes win that battle by a huge margin.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, if the Custodian lands a single blow, it would be a "perfect" strike, and likely judged to be JUST enough strength to kill in the shortest order possible. This is the problem with the fluff. If both can be "Perfect fighters" all we have to go off of is strength, and The Custodes win that battle by a huge margin.

So, are you saying that a normal custodes >> Hesperax? Also, if we’re going purely by fluff, which level would you place her, clearly she should be able to top moth marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I just read a 40k novel about the custodes, "master of mankind', and based on that a typical custodes should be able top send hesperax flying so hard she becomes a smear of shattered bones and splattered flesh on the first obstacle she hits simply by letting a good fart in her general direction.

Ah, so does that make Drazhar (who killed 3 custodes) >>> Hesperax?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 01:54:54


 
   
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So Any Custodian, named or otherwise, is greater than ANY non-Chaos Space Marine. Any Captain or even Chapter Master is still no match for a Custodian. Custodes are orders of Magnitudes above even Calgar or Dante. Who are arguably the greatest living Space Marines, save Ragnar, who is still no match. At this point, it's "perfect fighter" fluff vs "perfect fighter" fluff. Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it? It's a logical paradox. Based solely off who's fluff is greater, Lelith has 1 book? Custodes have 1 or 2, but neither really focus on their martial prowess except for the second one, and that's like a single chapter of Valarian taking apart Minotaur Primaris. So Lelith takes it unless it's a named Custodian.
   
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Cary, NC

I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".

I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.

In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.

Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!

Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.

 
   
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Da Butcha wrote:
I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".

I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.

In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!

Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.

So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 04:13:57


 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Cognitive wrote:
Da Butcha wrote:
I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".

I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.

In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!

Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.

So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?



Why are you still pressing the issue? I think we've established quite decisively over 2 pages, that lelith could quite reliably take a single "standard" custodian in the scenario you describe.
   
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Tiberias wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
Da Butcha wrote:
I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".

I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.

In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!

Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.

So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?



Why are you still pressing the issue? I think we've established quite decisively over 2 pages, that lelith could quite reliably take a single "standard" custodian in the scenario you describe.

He asked for details, I wasn’t pressing anything.
   
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I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.

Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.

So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.

Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.

Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.

Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.

So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.

Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.

Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.


Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.

So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.
   
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I think she would beat the average Custodian pretty handily.
Drazhar took on three at once and turned their corpses into a chair, and I'd put Lelith around his level.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.

Completely wrong. A squad of SM in fluff easily takes on a whole army of foes, be it human or xeno ones (see Astartes video for good visualization). Primaris are better than that, and a whole squad acting in concert would easily take her. Hell, even on tabletop, where SM are heavily nerfed, a primaris squad costs more than Lelith and should absolutely wreck her in any sort of balanced game, outside of 7th edition broken Eldar OP gak.

As for the the OP question, she might be able to take a fresh one. One with good skills? Probably not. Funnily enough, there was a similar fight in the mediocre Ventris series, Cato vs Lelith expy - she managed to slip past his blade and stab his heart, only for notLelith to belatedly realize SM have two hearts and the wound wasn't fatal - cue Cato snapping her neck now that she was within easy arms reach. I can see Lelith fight going about the same, Custode tanking the supposedly fatal hit thanks to her lack of weak point knowledge and smashing her in return.
   
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UK

Yeah cos Lelith having defeated so many Marines in the arena would not know about the 2 hearts....

As others have said it depends on the author but Lelith should easily slaughter a squad or Primaris - likely whilst doing her make up

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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Could Lelith take Marbo?
   
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UK

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Could Lelith take Marbo?

Depends who is the star of the book, comic, film etc.... as usual.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 16:58:15


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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Tiberias wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.

Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.

So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.

Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.

Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.


Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.

So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.


Yeah I agree, I don’t think it’s supportable that custodians can solo a primarchs. In the Alpharius novel

Spoiler:
Alpharius, one of the weaker primarchs one-on-one, one shots a regular custodian without any particularly Gucci kit then solos Constantin Valdour, the best custodian, prior to big E putting a stop to the fight (with the armour/spear from the custodian he killed).
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Could Lelith take Marbo?


Pffft, could a Primarch take Marbo? I mean it's widely known that marbo is the most powerful character in 40k....I mean have you seen Marbos biceps? Or his cigar? No way Lelith could take on Arnold Stallon....I mean Sly Marbo. He'd just rub himself in some mud and set some traps in a jungle, done. But what if there is no jungle around when the fight takes place you say? Even a small shrubbery is enough jungle for Marbo to trap you and take you down....so yeah, no chance Lelith can take him.

But then again, even the nightbringer checks under his bed for Sly Marbo, so can't really blame Lelith for losing that one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 17:11:03


 
   
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Lord Zarkov wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.

Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.

So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.

Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.

Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.


Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.

So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.


Yeah I agree, I don’t think it’s supportable that custodians can solo a primarchs. In the Alpharius novel

Spoiler:
Alpharius, one of the weaker primarchs one-on-one, one shots a regular custodian without any particularly Gucci kit then solos Constantin Valdour, the best custodian, prior to big E putting a stop to the fight (with the armour/spear from the custodian he killed).



Spoiler:
Just a small correction; he used the spear, but was unarmered.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
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Noctis Labyrinthus

Barring gakky non-answers like "Bruh it depends on who writes it lmao!" Lelith should generally be able to kill the average Custodian in a duel, but probably be beaten by a top tier Custode like Valoris.

Lelith is not so much more skilled or fast than Valoris that she could evade every hit, and the difference in physicality is such that a single hit would pulp her insides and shatter bones. She shouldn't be able to block an attack from even an average Custodian and would have to dodge everything, because he is unironically probably somewhere in the ballpark of dozens of times more physically powerful than her. He could literally explode her skull with a single jab.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.

Completely wrong. A squad of SM in fluff easily takes on a whole army of foes, be it human or xeno ones (see Astartes video for good visualization). Primaris are better than that, and a whole squad acting in concert would easily take her. Hell, even on tabletop, where SM are heavily nerfed, a primaris squad costs more than Lelith and should absolutely wreck her in any sort of balanced game, outside of 7th edition broken Eldar OP gak.

As for the the OP question, she might be able to take a fresh one. One with good skills? Probably not. Funnily enough, there was a similar fight in the mediocre Ventris series, Cato vs Lelith expy - she managed to slip past his blade and stab his heart, only for notLelith to belatedly realize SM have two hearts and the wound wasn't fatal - cue Cato snapping her neck now that she was within easy arms reach. I can see Lelith fight going about the same, Custode tanking the supposedly fatal hit thanks to her lack of weak point knowledge and smashing her in return.


Your elf derangement syndrome is embarrassing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Animus wrote:
I think she would beat the average Custodian pretty handily.
Drazhar took on three at once and turned their corpses into a chair, and I'd put Lelith around his level.


Frankly I wouldn't, simply because both are top tier skilled Dark Eldar fighters, but Drazhar (probably because he's a Phoenix Lord) is simply much more physically powerful than she is. He also has better gear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/28 03:21:35


 
   
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Since custodes are kinda hyped in the lore regarding their abilities, and they can even back up most of that hype it's kinda normal for people to wonder what characters from other factions could take on a single custodian, since they are the best non-character fighters the imperium has (note that I intentionally said "fighters" and not soldiers).

So let's create a comprehensive list of characters that SHOULD IN ALL PROBABILITY be able to take on a standard custodian in SINGLE COMBAT based on what we know about the most consistent fluff.

So not considering top tier custodians like Trajann Valoris or Constantin Valdor and not considering garbage like an unarmored worleader killing a custodian in the outcast dead because the author is too dumb to research the setting he is writing his book in.

The obvious choices:
-Sly Marbo: because of course he can. I already said its widely known he's the most powerful character in the setting.

- Kaldor Draigo: cause he's a meme.

- Mephiston Lord of Death: becaue he's basically gone super saiyan by now....he is basically an anime character. Not as much of a meme as draigo, but still ridiculous.


The serious obvious choices:
- All the Primarchs: Primarchs are OP in the fluff....not much else to say here, there is not much in 40k that can challenge one in single combat.

-All the named greater demons like Shalaxi Hellbane or Ka'Bandha: they are the most powerful agents of their respective gods, so no chance a single custodian can stand against them.

- All the standard greater demons: same as above. Even though the "standard" variants seem to be a bit weaker than their named counterparts there is still no way a single custodian could take one of them.

- All the phoenix lords (yes, Drazhar aswell): They often get shafted in the lore, but they are still extremely powerful and every one of them should be able to take on at least one custodian.

- Avatar of Khaine: they appear to be maybe a bit weaker than greater demons, but still should be able to handily take on a single custodian.

- Ghazgkull: the big green would just steamroll a bog standard custodian, no contest. And yes I know! Ragnar "beat" him or they killed each other, which is utter, utter garbage writing. Ghaz is by far the most powerful ork since the beast and there is no way a single custodian, let alone some space furry can stand against that absolute unit.

- The swarmlord: probably millions of years of evolution and combat experience distilled into one being....yeah, no chance a single custodian would stand a chance against that.

- Hive Tyrants: 2-3 Custodians should probably be able to take one, but not in single combat.

- Lelith Hesperax: not gonna discuss it further, since the whole thread is dedicated to this question. I will say though I don't think Lelith would utterly steamroll a custodian. She'd definitely get the job done, but she would have to take some time and actually work for it.

- Skulltaker: a demon primarliy created for dueling mortal champions, I think he should be able to kill a standard custodian with some effort.

- Solitaires: the space-ninja-clowns that defy gravity and logic should also be able to take on a standard custodian. Though I would put them quite even with some of the higher ranking custodes like tribunes.

- Abaddon: 10k years of chaos steroids and OP wargear...he can do it. People crap on abaddon alot, but forget that even before being empowered by chaos and getting the talon, he was one of the best fighters among all legions during the crusade.

- Kharn: I think his guy is massively overrated, but being on khorne-steroids for so long he could probably do it. A higher ranking custodian would probably beat him though and valoris would just stomp him.

- The big three: I personally think it's dumb, but if there were ever a story to be written where either dante, grimnar or calgar had to face of against a standard custodian, they would win. Then again, they would beat most other entries on this list because of copious amounts of plot armor....

- Crusade era Sigismund: the OG emperors champion was the deadliest space marine in 30k....I'm quite confident he could take on a standard custodian, especially if the custodian were to underestimate him for even one second.

So there you have it. There are a lot of characters that can imo beat a standard custodian. Now everybody do the internet and this forum justice and flame me because I forgot that one character from the faction you play.







This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 09:50:41


 
   
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 Void__Dragon wrote:
Barring gakky non-answers like "Bruh it depends on who writes it lmao!" Lelith should generally be able to kill the average Custodian in a duel, but probably be beaten by a top tier Custode like Valoris.

Lelith is not so much more skilled or fast than Valoris that she could evade every hit, and the difference in physicality is such that a single hit would pulp her insides and shatter bones. She shouldn't be able to block an attack from even an average Custodian and would have to dodge everything, because he is unironically probably somewhere in the ballpark of dozens of times more physically powerful than her. He could literally explode her skull with a single jab.

How about Valerian vs Lelith?
   
 
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