Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Eldar don't feel to me as someone who plays them that they should be 2W. having slightly better armor than GEQ is as much extra durability as they need to have, honestly.

To me, the thing that's felt weird about Eldar's durability is that they're wearing these hyper-advanced technosuits that look almost exactly like what a Tau trooper is wearing yet they're only T3 5+. T3 4+ on the troops with the fancy aspect warriors/incubi being T3 3+ is as durable as they need to be, and given kabalite warriors, seems the direction theyre headed.

if Orks need to get more durable, and I think yeah, they could use a little bit of a bump, it ought to be toughness, not wounds. Wounds would make them more durable vs single damage weaponry you're supposed to take to kill an ork, and less durable vs multidamage weaponry which ought to be less efficient vs orks. Other than MANZ being W3, I don't think any ork stuff should go up in wounds, and there's actually a few ork things I'd bring down in wounds if you asked me (like trukks. I'd prefer cheaper, flimsier trukks back please.)

T5, W1, 6+ with nobz at T5, W2, 4+ is the perfect place for the basic ork to be hanging out. It makes Heavy Boltguns and Assault Cannons and Shuriken Cannons the perfect heavy weaponry to bring them down, while making them tougher to scythe down with the boltguns that were made significantly safer and longer-ranged in post-2.0 space marines codex. Also provides a handy -1 to wound malus against common types of weaponry that would otherwise be able to just blow away regular nobz like Plasma, helping to differentiate them from the MEQ profile and make them not just 'bad assault intercessors.'

Orks' problem atm is that all the random extra S4 attacks marines got 'for free' leaves them dependent on spamming every available durability buff and leaning on the crutch of the super, super un-fun psychic power Da Jump, which totally just removes the core Ork gameplay pattern of the green tide surging forward and the heavy, longrange guns trying to cut some of them down before they're upon the enemy, replacing it with "30 orks per turn appear 9" away from the enemy line and hyper-reliably charge in and tie stuff up while the rest hang around on objectives waiting to be Jumped or Endless Green Tide'd right back to the front line."

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Great post, can't argue with any of it.

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Going from T4 to T5 provides too great of a buff for a unit that's primarily designed as chaff. (going from T4 to T5 provides the biggest returns, than say T3 to T4, or T7 to T8)

It's one thing to bring/focus your S4/5 weapons against boyz, but it's another when you're forced to spend your anti-light vehicle (S6~S7) weapons against the boyz because your S4's weren't just cutting it. Boyz are arguably one of the toughest chaff units, but that still doesn't mean you should be pumping out S5 shots with occasional S6/7/8 against it. (it should be "pumping out S4 shots with occasional S5 against it").

But, that's just my opinion.

 Jidmah wrote:
Great post, can't argue with any of it.

It really is, enough said. I use da jump a lot but it does not feel very orky. I would much rather advance a tide of toughness 5 greenskins, mean and green, up the board. That is a real waagh. The increase in toughness would ensure we would have enough ladz alive when the time for krumpin comes.

I personally think the design space for Mob Rule can be used to increase the staying power of T4 infantries. Revise the rules to read:

Mob Rule:
When a unit with this rule suffers any casualties from enemy attacks, do not remove the slain models. Instead, after resolving the attacks, roll a d6 for each model that would've been lost as casualties. For each roll of 6+, a single model that would've been lost as casualty stays on the battlefield with 1W remaining. If the number of dice rolled in this manner is equal to or greater than it's Ld value, subtract 1 from the roll.

Then:

Keepin' Order
...When a friendly unit within 3" of unit with this rule takes Mob Rule test, add 1 to the roll

 addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Great post, can't argue with any of it.

It really is, enough said. I use da jump a lot but it does not feel very orky. I would much rather advance a tide of toughness 5 greenskins, mean and green, up the board. That is a real waagh. The increase in toughness would ensure we would have enough ladz alive when the time for krumpin comes.

It seems that you've got yourself in the mental trap of "orks must be bad at 40k to be thematic."

Pulsa Rokkits were a gimmicky, weird ability that could swing games back in the day. Orks are all about weird strategies and abilities that humans would never think of, because they're crazy by human standards but cunning.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Not quite. It has been a Weirboy power for quite a bit longer than just 8th, but back in the day you rolled d6 each time a boy cast a power vs a table and that's what you got. One of them was indeed Da jump where the weirdboy and whatever unit he was with did a deepstrike, which meant rolling for scatter. Occasionally it could just lead to the death of the unit if you scattered poorly meaning it wasn't used as often as these days.

It's more of an issue of precision deepstrike. I think da jump is really fine, it stops what's honestly some boring games i would have played where boyz weren't in combat for two turns. Burnabomma is also something i disagree with, i just think explosions should be like normal attacks, i'm not a huge fan of mortals.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

By 'endless green tide' i mean the stratagem that zoops an almost-dead unit off the board and (effectively) da jumps it at the opponent's army.

Green Tide as in lots of boyz is always going to be a staple of ork army setups. THer'es basically two choices - do you want your troops in Trukks, or do you want them in a green tide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Also, no it hasn't, it was just called 'ere we go in previous editions. There's been an ork weirdboy power to deep strike a nearby ork unit since I started playing the game at the end of 4th edition.

 skchsan wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Going from T4 to T5 provides too great of a buff for a unit that's primarily designed as chaff. (going from T4 to T5 provides the biggest returns, than say T3 to T4, or T7 to T8)

It's one thing to bring/focus your S4/5 weapons against boyz, but it's another when you're forced to spend your anti-light vehicle (S6~S7) weapons against the boyz because your S4's weren't just cutting it. Boyz are arguably one of the toughest chaff units, but that still doesn't mean you should be pumping out S5 shots with occasional S6/7/8 against it. (it should be "pumping out S4 shots with occasional S5 against it").

But, that's just my opinion.

That sounds perfect to me. It will make boyz and light vehicles a formidable combination.

Boyz are in no way among the toughest chaff. Theyre T4 6+ for either 7pts or 8 I dont remember. Incredibly easy to kill, guardsmen are tougher to remove from the board.

Currently 8, for... reasons.
Probably because grots are 5, and orks are better in multiple ways, so 1 or 2 points more doesn't make sense. Which feels like problem solving by creating more problems, but... ok.


The interesting thing is where Beastsnagga Boys fit into the range between boyz at 8 and nobz at 17 (or... 8, if they're in the boyz unit). If they manage to keep everything viable I'll be very impressed (and surprised). I suspect they'll have the same problems primaris did at launch (far too costly for what they do over the base unit), and require multiple revisions to fix.

Voss wrote:
Currently 8, for... reasons.
Probably because grots are 5, and orks are better in multiple ways, so 1 or 2 points more doesn't make sense. Which feels like problem solving by creating more problems, but... ok.


The interesting thing is where Beastsnagga Boys fit into the range between boyz at 8 and nobz at 17 (or... 8, if they're in the boyz unit). If they manage to keep everything viable I'll be very impressed (and surprised). I suspect they'll have the same problems primaris did at launch (far too costly for what they do over the base unit), and require multiple revisions to fix.

Let's be optimistic and say GW learned from the initial primaris points and rules release. I am setting euros aside for the 60 or so beast snagga ladz I will be compelled (I play in a comp environment) to buy (also I love the models). I think they will be like 10 points with really punchy rules, and relatively durable. Perhaps toughness 4 only but with a 5+++ (meaning a CFK would make them quite resilient to damage 1 shooty weapons). I hope we will be able to make them tank stuff, thus having a different way of playing the green tide thing:
- Boyz for the green tide playstyle we have now
- Beast snagga ladz for a new tide playstyle: lower numbers, but more resilience

I hope we soon get to know if the beast snaggas are troops or elite choices

I'm more hoping for lower number, but more punch. Especially our transport strategies are longing for units actually worth transporting.

If beastsnaggas are anything like the primaris release, they wont be able to fit in trucks or battlewagons, despite meganobz being able to somehow fit.

They will only use their own snagga transports because of their beliefs.

 skchsan wrote:
I personally think the design space for Mob Rule can be used to increase the staying power of T4 infantries. Revise the rules to read:

Mob Rule:
When a unit with this rule suffers any casualties from enemy attacks, do not remove the slain models. Instead, after resolving the attacks, roll a d6 for each model that would've been lost as casualties. For each roll of 6+, a single model that would've been lost as casualty stays on the battlefield with 1W remaining. If the number of dice rolled in this manner is equal to or greater than it's Ld value, subtract 1 from the roll.

Then:

Keepin' Order
...When a friendly unit within 3" of unit with this rule takes Mob Rule test, add 1 to the roll

Do you mean in addition to the current Mob rule or replacing it with this? This just seems like a weird ramshackle rule but for boys. How would this actually work in practice because my brain doesn't get it. My gut reaction was if this replaced the current mob rule then I hate it.

It’s similar to RP for Necrons, the way I see it.

cody.d. wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Not quite. It has been a Weirboy power for quite a bit longer than just 8th, but back in the day you rolled d6 each time a boy cast a power vs a table and that's what you got. One of them was indeed Da jump where the weirdboy and whatever unit he was with did a deepstrike, which meant rolling for scatter. Occasionally it could just lead to the death of the unit if you scattered poorly meaning it wasn't used as often as these days.

I know I used it but i had completely forgotten about it before 8th's Da Jump.
I like having da Jump in my pocket but it seems to be more about forcing the other player to leave models back and around to screen the possibility than it is about actually being able to use it recently.
Late in 8th and now in 9th it's not been forgotten about by other players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s similar to RP for Necrons, the way I see it.

Ah, got it. thanks!
I still need to chew this over, I don't know. I really really like the current Mob rule after suffering for all of 7th with that disaster of a Mob Rule.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

I thought there was a version of it in an earlier edition that would drag the weirdboy along for the ride and could scatter?

 Jidmah wrote:
We already know that the infantry will be a troops choice called Beast Snagga Boyz.

T5 would be odd if nobz don't get T5 as well.

When did GW state Beast Snagga Boys were a Troop choice? The stream made no mention of it, but used the term 'vanguard.

Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

bat702 wrote:
Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

First we have to agree that there is such a thing as a Primaris Ork. There's not.

A\I do hope GW does give out those extra wounds, it sounds like those units need them. I'm sure they are too lazy to plop that into the relevant faq's and just waiting to sell the book, read the disappointment and drop a patch after the books have sold. GW's gunna GW after all.

bat702 wrote:
Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

Looks like grey knights are coming soon

It probably wont happen if Beast Snaggas are troops, but I'd like the option of Nobz as troops again. It was abused in 5th because of wound allocation, but I'd like the option of an elite ork army with lots of Nobz.

I'm hoping we get the super gretchin that zogrod used to be able to add to the army in 2nd ed.

Gretchin armies have always been a favourite of mine.

One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

They'd definitely need to step carefully with some interactions with certain weapons, but TBs don't get used all the much at present.

DDD could wind up being 6s to hit auto wound - that doesn't fit so well. I just can't see them sticking to the old method.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

Would that be bad though? Even for "insane" levels of shooting like tankbustas or lootas, we are talking about 7.5 rokkit hits instead of 5.83 or 22.5 instead of 17.5 extra loota hits compared to before.

If you consider the trend of unit options getting reduced to what's in the box, tank bustas might get forced to take 3 tankhammers and 3 pairs of rokkit pistols while lootas lose 3 deff guns to mandatory spannas. The net gain would be rather low, while many other shooting units would get the help they need.