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 ClockworkZion wrote:
One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.

Not going into details is normal and the correct course of action.
The problem is that they needlessly insinuate and make vague concerns about trustworthiness.

The entire second paragraph after the first sentence doesn't need to be there.

The 4th paragraph doesnt need to warn and at your own risk. There is no reason to go beyond "we are not affiliated with any goods or services offered".

Nor does the 5th paragraph need to be there.

If your not going to give details then be short and concise, not litter your statement with vague implications of massive breaches of trust.

Youknow I'm not defending them or saying what they did was correct right? I was just trying to explain a possible reason why they did what they did, even if they did it poorly.

 StrayIight wrote:
He better have done something obviously (and provably) extremely serious, else I cannot imagine this isn't a law suit waiting to happen.

I don't know how things work in the US, but here you can't legally so much as give an employee a 'bad' reference without opening yourself up to serious problems (if they were awful, you tend to simply confirm the dates they worked for you and pretty much nothing more). This statement surely is going to affect anything he tries to do in this industry going forward, and possibly any other.

Here in the US one can literally make up lies about someone and broadcast them on whatever media desired without penalty, unless they are able to prove in court that the intent was to harm. Which, as you'd expect, is almost impossible to prove.

That's not how the law works. Actual malice is only required when it's a public figure being defamed. Pablo, despite what some 40k players might think, is not a public figure.

People don't sue for defamation very often because it typically isn't worth the effort unless you are a public figure, and, if you are, it's hard to win.

I don't know where you got your law degree from but you're incorrectly stating a general law. Intent to harm only applies to public figures. For Joe Public all it takes is proof of knowingly or recklessly making a false statement that is detrimental to the subject of said statement(s).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't know where you got your law degree from but you're incorrectly stating a general law. Intent to harm only applies to public figures. For Joe Public all it takes is proof of knowingly or recklessly making a false statement that is detrimental to the subject of said statement(s).

It's actually only a negligence standard (assuming we're talking about US law), so even lower than that.

WTF did he do to talk bad about him without saying what it was? I''ve listen to him for years and even recently with so many guests on the show nothing seem bad at all, so it must have been in the work place. If it is work place related you don't talk bad about the person, you fire and say " we wasn't working at the quality we ask for" and leave it at that. This makes it sound like we was harassing workers or something worst if it didn't effect the "clients".

This is a unprofessional way to announce it.

FLG could have dealt with the "transgression" without this letter. Reads like a smear, spare us the drama of your HR decisions.

The most charismatic, fun-loving people seem to be the ones getting the boot. Looking forward to whatever Pablo does next.

Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling

yukishiro1 wrote:
You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.

Yea, I agree. Though this is the kind of communication I would come to expect from a business that has no formal HR or deep management experience. Just feels like a bunch of buddies stumbling through things.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling

I've never heard about that. Sounds like something like I'd expect from Spikey Bits honestly.

Also you're ignoring they're the creators and main arbitrators of the ITC which in the US at least is the main organization behind competitive Warhammer.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling

Never heard of this before. Here's a source of the issue with no comment. *grabs popcorn*

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3887733

 Daedalus81 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling

Never heard of this before. Here's a source of the issue with no comment. *grabs popcorn*

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3887733

My best guess is Reese is one of those people who doesn't want to recognize how horribly awful parts of the community can be. That or his idea of "damage control" is to deny there ever was a problem in the first place.

Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.

When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.

Reese could have handled it better with "thanks for bringing it to my attention and we'll avoid using this image in the future".

So yeah, Reese not handling PR problems properly is par for the course I guess.

Dear, God. Why....just.....why!

Never seen such intolerance. Bordering on :::gasp::: Facism.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf

Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.

I agree Reece flubbed the PR response to that, all he had to say was "wow, that totally wasn't our intent at all and we had no idea it is close to a Nazi symbol, we'll take down the picture and get it fixed."

yukishiro1 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf

Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.

I agree Reece flubbed the PR response to that, all he had to say was "wow, that totally wasn't our intent at all and we had no idea it is close to a Nazi symbol, we'll take down the picture and get it fixed."

Yea. People are at each other's throats too much. If you go look at the AoS N&R thread it is a pissing match. No one is stopping to listen or framing their arguments in a way that might cross the divide. ( I've certainly been no angel )

That guy lambasting Reece and other "Nazis" is perhaps cringe worthy material. Spending time attacking people for really minor infractions seems silly.

You can look at this recent world events. Hurt someone. They lash out. Which causes the other party to lash out. And then we just go in circles...forever. Madness.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.

Dude, give it a fething rest. So tired of such idiotic statements. Yes, it's the symbol of the 3rd SS Panzer division from WWII, but putting it on a model in no way makes someone a nazi sympathizer by that act alone. The skull and cross bones was used by the 17th/21st Lancers, a British division, it's pretty rampant in military circles. The 3rd SS fought combat actions in the Soviet Union, it's not all about concentration camps, etc. Heck, you can find these very symbols on dice and books produced by Battlefront Miniatures to represent the division in wargaming and I can tell you from personal experience that those guys are very far from "nazis".

Go find your boogeymen somewhere else. This thread was about Pablo, not "scary" fascists.

When it comes to issues like that Knight it is important to remember Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Most likely what happened was that the guy who painted the skull went online looking for images of skulls and crossbones, saw the symbol not realizing what it was and painted it because he though it looked cool.
Likely Reece's response can be attributed to this.

As for what is happening with Pablo, hard to tell if it is malice, stupidity or stupid malice.

 KingGarland wrote:
When it comes to issues like that Knight it is important to remember Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Most likely what happened was that the guy who painted the skull went online looking for images of skulls and crossbones, saw the symbol not realizing what it was and painted it because he though it looked cool.
Likely Reece's response can be attributed to this.

As for what is happening with Pablo, hard to tell if it is malice, stupidity or stupid malice.

If we assume Reese is bad at PR based on his response to that skull then we can equally assume he's bad at PR when it comes to something more directly related to him like Pablo. So probably stupidity.

it is strange at best and kind of let the company looks worse than the guy they fired
but unless we hear any more details it can be because of legal reasons as there might be some unresolved issues with his contract

 bullyboy wrote:

Dude, give it a fething rest. So tired of such idiotic statements. Yes, it's the symbol of the 3rd SS Panzer division from WWII, but putting it on a model in no way makes someone a nazi sympathizer by that act alone.

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.

How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.

Well I almost wrote obscure to who, but then I remember it is another continent away from me. Still it does look exactly, not just like, the bronze Waffen SS badge. If it is just a coincident, then we have first example of psychic emanations.

I think it would be better, if he just said I googled, skull and bones found, found a logo I liked put it on my model, but because I ain't no nazi or a person who lives in central europe, I was unable to recognise it as a Waffen SS sigel.

I think people would be more understanding of that. The shirt guy was kind of a the same . His wife family gave him shirt, he isn't in to far east politics. Shirts looks funny and feels nice. Later find out the dude is not a nice guy. Happens all the time, for example in Poland we have on young men run around with black painted faces singing carols, but it is a folk local thing and the painted person is the representation of the slavic demon/devil Boruta, there were a few times when some polish dudes thought it would be okey to done the Boruta gear and waltz in to halloween parties in western countries. A cousin of my did it in the 2010s and got in to real trouble at the university he went to in Alberta.

Or TLTR people don't want to show how stupid they are about some things, and deep themselfs deeper in to @#$% then they would if they just said , I don't know a thing about this things.

I am broadly in agreement that it is both too little or too much of a statement, either Pablo will come out and reveal it was too much of a statement or we can assume that it was too little of a statement and something very serious happened.

If Chapter Tactics continues it'll be with a new GW shill to replace Pablo, the podcast won't get better. Jim Vesal's podcast is extremely cool, I think you should check it out if you want a saltier version of Chapter Tactics. The Art of War podcast also doesn't get bogged down in GW apolegetics in my experience, with those two you get coverage of the nitty gritty and the broad stuff.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.

Nazis stole iconography from everyone, despite having a failed artist for a leader they really didn't come up with any original stuff. The swastika is an ancient symbol and the totenkopf was in use for at least a hundred years before the SS started exterminating millions of Jews. I think some people are still butthurt over the ITC Champions missions from 8th.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with painting fascist empire iconography on your space fascist imperium dollies. What does the Sautekh Dynasty symbol represent? Conquest, slavery and extermination. Knights are not the good guys, they're feudal lords and they can treat the peasantry however they like as long as they support the greater Imperium, knowing a little medieval history and something about the 40k lore, that's probably pretty awful.

 kodos wrote:

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem

Germany's censorship isn't working from what I've seen in news shows and articles the far right were out in force to protest during corona, as a pirate I strongly object to anyone that would ban me from using the skull and crossbones and if you have freedom of speech the suggestion from anyone to restrict your speech that you think is reasonable should be "piss off".

The Danish flag has probably been flown celebrating tragedies, doesn't stop me from flying my flag on my birthday. Yes, the intention really does matter, which is why only an idiot would call Buddhists erecting new swastika-riddled buildings Nazis or an Asian (especially if they are of Chinese descent, which they might be) a Nazi for using a skull and crossbones insignia similar to one that ONE division of the SS used.

 vict0988 wrote:
I am broadly in agreement that it is both too little or too much of a statement, either Pablo will come out and reveal it was too much of a statement or we can assume that it was too little of a statement and something very serious happened.

If Chapter Tactics continues it'll be with a new GW shill to replace Pablo, the podcast won't get better. Jim Vesal's podcast is extremely cool, I think you should check it out if you want a saltier version of Chapter Tactics. The Art of War podcast also doesn't get bogged down in GW apolegetics in my experience, with those two you get coverage of the nitty gritty and the broad stuff.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.

Nazis stole iconography from everyone, despite having a failed artist for a leader they really didn't come up with any original stuff. The swastika is an ancient symbol and the totenkopf was in use for at least a hundred years before the SS started exterminating millions of Jews. I think some people are still butthurt over the ITC Champions missions from 8th.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with painting fascist empire iconography on your space fascist imperium dollies. What does the Sautekh Dynasty symbol represent? Conquest, slavery and extermination. Knights are not the good guys, they're feudal lords and they can treat the peasantry however they like as long as they support the greater Imperium, knowing a little medieval history and something about the 40k lore, that's probably pretty awful.

 kodos wrote:

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem

Germany's censorship isn't working from what I've seen in news shows and articles the far right were out in force to protest during corona, as a pirate I strongly object to anyone that would ban me from using the skull and crossbones and if you have freedom of speech the suggestion from anyone to restrict your speech that you think is reasonable should be "piss off".

The Danish flag has probably been flown celebrating tragedies, doesn't stop me from flying my flag on my birthday. Yes, the intention really does matter, which is why only an idiot would call Buddhists erecting new swastika-riddled buildings Nazis or an Asian (especially if they are of Chinese descent, which they might be) a Nazi for using a skull and crossbones insignia similar to one that ONE division of the SS used.

While I agree with almost everything you have typed, I must bring up that painting a SS thunderbolt symbol on your toys can cause actual discomfort where as Sautek dynasty is patently fake. Im not one for censorship and I wouldnt tell anyone how to paint their toys. But in the end, a real life symbol of a hate group (why i used the SS thunderbolts, because as far as I know it was a original nazi icon) is going to elicit a much stronger reaction than a fake icon. As I said. I wont tell anyone what to do, just expect a stronger response.

yukishiro1 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf

Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.

Normal people who know little to nothing about WWII history anyways.

Table wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.

How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?

GW has hired more female writers, has been making more female models (not even counting Sisters), finally added female Guard heads and did sue Arch Warhammer and get him black listed from World of Warships. Oh, and we finally got a non-Salamander Black Space Marine on a book cover (who was even the protagonist) and they've been making an effort to paint skin tones other than caucasian too. So while they haven't been painting rainbow Marines or anything they have been doing things to try and make the hobby space more welcoming to a wider range of people.

Necron symbols are fictional icons based on Egyptian symbols like an ankh mixed with circuit diagram imagery. They represent a fictional robot undead race from 60,000,000 years in the past awakened 40,000 years in the future. Explain again how this is the same as symbols used within living memory in the name of exterminating millions of people and a war which bombed half the world into ruins?

Also, to call a totenkopf obscure reflects your own ignorance, not that of others. You might not known its name but as a symbol of the SS and the Holocaust, and a symbol used today by fascist groups, it is pretty notorious. I don’t think it can be blamed as a US thing as I believe they also have TV and books over there. I mean, I grew up in a country that didn’ even partake in the Second World War and didn’t officially call it a war until after it was all done, I’m not a military history guy nor am I a fascist and yet I know what it is.

Anyway, I don’t know this Pablo guy but that statement does read like a hamfisted “something dodgy this way comes” ass covering statement so whatever is going on in the background must be fairly bad.