Switch Theme:

Orks, as Mech and Sisters - is this good new for craftworlds and CSM  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






"Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done."

"It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place."

Maybe Skitarii are OTT, but my personal opinion is that theyre a little bit of a timmy piece based on people not factoring in just how easy they are to scoop with basic guns, and how people are basically just used to beefed-up heavy infantry or beefed-up characters doing crazy gak, but seeing a beefed-up light infantry unit pulling the same thing is breaking peoples' brains for some reason.

All the targeted buffs in the codex are being put on there by characters that do very, very little else and outside of the skitarii marshal are not bargain-basement cheap.

Some of the stratagem combos are absolutely problematic, but people are absolutely being incredibly reductive and disingenuous when they talk about 20 skitarii rangers as "JUST a 160pt unit" and then apply the buffs from a 105pt Techpriest Manipulus Logos with a relic and 3CP for double shots+wrath of mars, and then leave out the small detail that you have to be within 15" for the combo to really work.

You can get some pretty bonkers points returns with 30 ork boyz if you da jump them across the map and spend 3cp to double fight with them, or a fully maxed out Blood Angels assault intercessors spending 4CP to be in the assault doctrine and fight twice.

But since those are a known quantity, the idea of 10 space marines for 190pts *theoretically* being able to output 80 S4 AP-2 attacks with +1 to wound isn't quite as crazy in peoples eyes as a unit of agripinaa skitarii for 160pts being able to output 30 AP-1 autowounds against any nonvehicle within 9".

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Better for less points is the definition of OP.

It is easy to identify as OP. I am not playing against it. Donezo. The only chance this game has is for TO's to modify the rules themselves because GW is wacko/delusional to think people will keep playing their terribly written game.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nobody's using agrippina, I dunno why you keep bringing that up. It feels like you are the one doing the theorycrafting, honestly.

The practical reality is that 20-man blocks of both vanguard and rangers - but especially vanguard - just perform too well. Auto-deleting 20-man necron warrior squads by spending a CP or two and getting a couple of cheap buffs isn't something that leads to a balanced game. You can also easily turn them into something that's impossible to kill efficiency if that's your jam - 8 point models with a 3+ save native vs D1 weapons that either ignore AP-1 and AP-2 and/or have transhuman aren't going anywhere in a hurry...even without the 2+ save you can give them on the turn that matters...even if they aren't in cover.

There's just too much you can do with them right now, for too little investment. I really don't think GW understood the implications of going to 20-man units in a codex so focused on single-unit buffs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/01 18:30:30


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody's using agrippina, I dunno why you keep bringing that up. It feels like you are the one doing the theorycrafting, honestly.




Can you try to follow along just like...a little bit? I've been trying to put the original Xenomancers bs post I started responding to in every post I make, but it's pretty clear you're not exactly reading it each time, so, again, but bigger this time:

Xenomancer's claim was "160pt unit that puts out 30 Ap-2 autowounds"

That requires agripinaa. I know agripinaa is not what people are going to be using. You know agipinaa is not what people are going to be using. but I'm sticking to it because that's the original claim being made here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:


The practical reality is that 20-man blocks of both vanguard and rangers - but especially vanguard - just perform too well. Auto-deleting 20-man necron warrior squads by spending a CP or two and getting a couple of cheap buffs isn't something that leads to a balanced game. You can also easily turn them into something that's impossible to kill efficiency if that's your jam - 8 point models with a 3+ save native vs D1 weapons that either ignore AP-1 and AP-2 and/or have transhuman aren't going anywhere in a hurry...even without the 2+ save you can give them on the turn that matters...even if they aren't in cover.

There's just too much you can do with them right now, for too little investment. I really don't think GW understood the implications of going to 20-man units in a codex so focused on single-unit buffs.



Maybe. I will point out that Valorous Heart sisters of battle can do that too, except that they're just always 3+sv and not only vs D1 and the character required to buff them is 45pts instead of 105pts. And instead of being a single target buff that you have to set up in your command phase (so if you go second, whoopsie doops) it's a 6" aura ability, so your Val Heart sisters can be fielded in little 5-woman units that can all perform actions and can bottom out offensive firepower that does crack through their defenses and don't take max hits from blast. you don't really see them that much and you don't see people actually speccing into durability skew that much in general. I think it's way more likely people will spend their points on the offensive stuff, and rely on incidentals like just "being lucius, and having doctrina imperatives" or "being mars, and having doctrina imperatives" to protect their skitarii blocks for 1 turn.

I absolutely see (the offensive kind) of skitarii blocks being a competitive staple. Theyve got just the type of firepower you need to carve up the top meta armies right now like DG necrons and drukhari. And there are definitely some stratagems that slipped the ol' balancing factor just a little bit (whoops, 20 skitarii isn't enough models to make wrath of mars 2CP lol, missed that one!) Sadly, rather than dumb stratagem interactions getting nerfed, GW will probably hit skitarii with a 1-2pt points nerf at some point once they want some other faction to make a splash with the launch of their 'dex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/01 19:01:55


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Xenomancers wrote:
The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


Please tell me this temper tantrum is going to be accompanied by you not posting here as well - and sticking to said position, at least until the next edition, unlike certain other posters I could name...

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you don't find the typical Xenomancers hyperbole entertaining, just ignore him; if you don't, that's your problem, not his
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 the_scotsman wrote:
"Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done."

"It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place."

Maybe Skitarii are OTT, but my personal opinion is that theyre a little bit of a timmy piece based on people not factoring in just how easy they are to scoop with basic guns, and how people are basically just used to beefed-up heavy infantry or beefed-up characters doing crazy gak, but seeing a beefed-up light infantry unit pulling the same thing is breaking peoples' brains for some reason.
All the targeted buffs in the codex are being put on there by characters that do very, very little else and outside of the skitarii marshal are not bargain-basement cheap.


But this turns the game in to a two problem situation. Either it becomes who ever gets turn 1&use LoS blocking terrain better wins. Or the army combos are not good enought to be used against the top dogs, and the codex flys by with no real impact for the game, and worse not improvment to the game play for the players.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Dysartes wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


Please tell me this temper tantrum is going to be accompanied by you not posting here as well - and sticking to said position, at least until the next edition, unlike certain other posters I could name...

I could just be like 80% of the posters on here who literally admit to rarely or not playing the game at all. Nothing to do with my wanting to discuss the game. The balance from this latest admech release is so comically bad that it's not even an an exaggeration to seriously question peoples willingness to play against it. You actually should refuse because it is obviously over the line. Just as the 8.5 marines crap was with ironhands that literally anyone was able to tell at first glance.

This is easily worse though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done."

"It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place."

Maybe Skitarii are OTT, but my personal opinion is that theyre a little bit of a timmy piece based on people not factoring in just how easy they are to scoop with basic guns, and how people are basically just used to beefed-up heavy infantry or beefed-up characters doing crazy gak, but seeing a beefed-up light infantry unit pulling the same thing is breaking peoples' brains for some reason.
All the targeted buffs in the codex are being put on there by characters that do very, very little else and outside of the skitarii marshal are not bargain-basement cheap.


But this turns the game in to a two problem situation. Either it becomes who ever gets turn 1&use LoS blocking terrain better wins. Or the army combos are not good enought to be used against the top dogs, and the codex flys by with no real impact for the game, and worse not improvment to the game play for the players.

No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/01 20:14:42


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Texas

Abaddon303 wrote:

So many standard weapons we already know haven't been changed. I'd say the biggest tools loyalist marines are leaning into right now are storm shields and multi melta neither of which csm have access to.

Well Helbrutes have MMs so there's at least one way. It's not necessarily awesome but it's something. Meltas on regular bike squads or raptors could become a thing if reworked and pointed appropriately.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Landspeeders, attack bikes no access. We know our vehicles will be trash because the loyalist versions are.

I keep hoping GW will adjust these into playability points-wise at least for the tanks.

CSM fast attack is a "limited" slot at best. Maybe we will see something new here. There's really no good reason they couldn't retcon in speeders or attack bikes at this point.


Abaddon303 wrote:

They can't really mess with the standard CSM profile so giving an extra attack is probably out although they could keep hateful assault in place obviously.

They will totally get the inherent extra attack just like DG did. They will get a second wound. I'd speculate we might see other changes too since messing with certain "given" elements in core units seems to be a theme with this edition and they do seem fine with differentiating chaos from loyalists more. Heck maybe CSMs all get WS2?

Abaddon303 wrote:

I think whatever doctrine equivalents or legion traits we get they are going to need to be really really strong to bring our baseline to a place where we can compete. The extra wound on marines is not gonna be anywhere near enough.

Hopefully they increase the fluffiness and make marks of chaos really make a difference and allow proper always on boosts or something.

I think we all want this. Besides known and possible unknown unit adjustments the Legion Traits could carry a lot more weight than they do right now. If World Eaters and Emps Children break off into their own books it would give them even more room to tweak the traditional chaos legions.

At this point it's mostly hope and speculation but hey, that's where we are in the edition right now.

More 40k armies than 40k time ... 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.



This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"


Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp]

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


Yes, if you take yourself a 20-man block of skitarii (160pts)
Put them in the Agripinaa forgeworld
Walk all 20 of them into 12" range of a target (6" move btw)
Stick them near a techpriest manipulus (75pts)
Pop your once per game +1BS doctrina imperative
Stick them near a Techpriest Dominus (75pts) or Skitarii Marshal with the rr1s to hit trait (45pts+WL trait)
and pop the Saturated Rounds stratagem (1cp) to boost their auto-wound on a 6 to hit up to auto-wound on a 4 to hit

Then that combined 310pts+1cp or 280pts+1cp+WL trait can deal 30 AP-2 autowounds and 5 Ap-2 regular wounds (assuming wounding on 6s) to any target they like.

The reason it's a xenomancers bs statement is because you always, always, consistently just say "x can do y" without ever explaining fully what the hell X has to do to get into a position to do Y, like I've listed out above.

TY for the detailed description that literally everyone already knows how it works.

They also know Admech has methods to turn 1 deep strike...
and can also deep strike another 1 or 2 of these units after that. Destroying your units without much need to actually roll.


It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place.
Spoiler:

Lets just be clear about everyone that is unhappy about the state of the game right now.
Every Space marine player has finally figured out this is the same old stroy. Marines are going to be the worst army in the game for yet another edition. Getting rules first and creeped to death.
CSM are literally still at 1 wound after over a year of the edition playing 8th edition 40k in 9th edition. It is a joke. CSM go almost no support from PA. They are bottom teir.
Space marine and CSM players make up something like 50% of the player base.
Not to mention every other faction that has yet to recieve rules....yet force to play against the likes of ad mech and DE...LOL.
Prepare to see shops...empty...again. Tournments loaded with DE and Admech...with the same name winning over and over. The game is over.

Difficult to argue with this... let’s see what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?

The convoluting bloat reminds of the end of 7th, no?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/04 04:00:40


   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????


Historically speaking I'm gonna say no for CSM, yes for Eldar.

For any army that's shackled to The Great Space Marine Paradigm-ing, going later in the edition means your codex is more and more likely to be a wet fart compared to other armies who are independent and thus capable of participating in the power creep game.

That was the problem with, for example, GSC - so many of their units, roughly a third, are exactly identical to imperial guard units, but with an inherent massive drawback of "no warlord traits, no relics, no subfactions, no orders, no auras, no nothing." that whole third of the book is just nothing, and was tied in to one of the first 'dexes of the edition despite GSC being the last codex of the edition before Marines 2.0 set up the manufactured discontent cycle back up again for 9th.

Now, GW got basically all marines out of the way for 9th so that they can power creep the hell out of them, and since everyone got their gak pushed in by marines 2.0-3.0 for a year and a half with zero recourse, noooooooooooooobody is gonna feel bad about sticking the boot in now that they get their new Drukhari or Admech or whatever codex.

I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.

We're into the period of the edition where each new codex creates a massive power spike over the last, and it seems like we've set MEQ armies up to be the whipping boys for a while yet again. That bodes extremely badly for CSM in my eyes.

Yup, but who cares when you can get the next OP thing to the wipe the floor with your enemies and hear the lamentations of their (wo)men.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.



This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"


Spoiler:
Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


1) For some reason I don't believe you.
And even if you do quit I seriously doubt we've heard the last over-the-top complaint about SM sucking from you.....

2) You're getting bent out of shape over a squad of basic admech infantry armed with an 18" gun relying upon a strat.
If you can't handle basic guys with SMs? Then there's a problem for sure, but it doesn't lie with the SM Codex. (I'd start by looking at your dice. )

3) So how many AdMech do you actually face? (In my own area I count a potential of 4. And one of those I don't consider a challenge, let alone a threat)
What're the odds of game after game being ruined for you by this new super squad?
Besides, wasn't it just like 2-3 weeks ago that everyone would supposedly be running nothing but DE & ruining everyones day? And now 1 nerf & a paycheck later everyones doing AdMech? I doubt it.

As for refusing to play against the ADMech? Nah. I'm always = to the challenge.
When I refuse games it's based on the particular player, not what army they bring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 05:47:57


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?


Tell me they aren't one of the best armies in the game right now, even with the changes they got? Before they were mind breaking good. The guides on how to beat DE with non DE , were going something along the line of If you go first and they make mistakes, and the terrain is in your favour, if you manage to alfa strike them hard enough, then you have a 50/50 chance to not lose after turn 2. It was actually a funny thing to read or hear, specially when it was coming from people that playtested the army.


I had a the luck of playing a lot this week vs changed and unchanged DE, and the new Ad mecha, and it was not very fun to play. People drool over mars and how OP it is, but I got to play vs Lucius and it is probably just as good, and in some cases better then mars. A horde army with +2sv that can be stacked with other buffs vs armies with base weapons being AP- is the opposite of fun.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





DE are a good army now, but in line with the other ones. They have a powerful playstyle but they they are (now) full of counters.

Admech has still to prove to be an issue. My impression is that they will be around DG level. They will have a decent win rate, and take a tournament here and there.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If Ad Mech are broken they'll be nerfed in a few weeks.

I can vaguely understand a Marine player only playing the game when Marines are top faction - and so dipping in and out of 40k every few years as that cycles round. But it does seem a bit weak.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
If Ad Mech are broken they'll be nerfed in a few weeks.



This. GW has proven to VERY aware of the meta and they are showing no mercy.

Considering that Admech is one of the most expensive armies to collect, I would discourage everyone to try chasing this FOTM.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?


Tell me they aren't one of the best armies in the game right now, even with the changes they got? Before they were mind breaking good. The guides on how to beat DE with non DE , were going something along the line of If you go first and they make mistakes, and the terrain is in your favour, if you manage to alfa strike them hard enough, then you have a 50/50 chance to not lose after turn 2. It was actually a funny thing to read or hear, specially when it was coming from people that playtested the army.


I had a the luck of playing a lot this week vs changed and unchanged DE, and the new Ad mecha, and it was not very fun to play. People drool over mars and how OP it is, but I got to play vs Lucius and it is probably just as good, and in some cases better then mars. A horde army with +2sv that can be stacked with other buffs vs armies with base weapons being AP- is the opposite of fun.


I mean, you know that that's basically how DE played since before you were born, right? They were always 40K on hard mode...

And now they've had literally one month of being really powerful, and you won't stop giving them gak about it? Calm down fella.
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




Crispy78 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?


Tell me they aren't one of the best armies in the game right now, even with the changes they got? Before they were mind breaking good. The guides on how to beat DE with non DE , were going something along the line of If you go first and they make mistakes, and the terrain is in your favour, if you manage to alfa strike them hard enough, then you have a 50/50 chance to not lose after turn 2. It was actually a funny thing to read or hear, specially when it was coming from people that playtested the army.


I had a the luck of playing a lot this week vs changed and unchanged DE, and the new Ad mecha, and it was not very fun to play. People drool over mars and how OP it is, but I got to play vs Lucius and it is probably just as good, and in some cases better then mars. A horde army with +2sv that can be stacked with other buffs vs armies with base weapons being AP- is the opposite of fun.


I mean, you know that that's basically how DE played since before you were born, right? They were always 40K on hard mode...

And now they've had literally one month of being really powerful, and you won't stop giving them gak about it? Calm down fella.


I didn't know that mid March to early June is now a month, thanks for the time warp!
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






KurtAngle2 wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
No - the game is literally whoever has the best stratagems and free rules.


People sure are riding the DE were amazing for a month high, huh?


Tell me they aren't one of the best armies in the game right now, even with the changes they got? Before they were mind breaking good. The guides on how to beat DE with non DE , were going something along the line of If you go first and they make mistakes, and the terrain is in your favour, if you manage to alfa strike them hard enough, then you have a 50/50 chance to not lose after turn 2. It was actually a funny thing to read or hear, specially when it was coming from people that playtested the army.


I had a the luck of playing a lot this week vs changed and unchanged DE, and the new Ad mecha, and it was not very fun to play. People drool over mars and how OP it is, but I got to play vs Lucius and it is probably just as good, and in some cases better then mars. A horde army with +2sv that can be stacked with other buffs vs armies with base weapons being AP- is the opposite of fun.


I mean, you know that that's basically how DE played since before you were born, right? They were always 40K on hard mode...

And now they've had literally one month of being really powerful, and you won't stop giving them gak about it? Calm down fella.


I didn't know that mid March to early June is now a month, thanks for the time warp!


The codex went on preorder the last week in march, people actually got it mid-april. Month and a half to two months then, if it makes you feel better.

...You've got to admit that taking a little bit of extra time and actually nerfing the things in the codex that were actually a problem instead of just knee-jerking instantaneously after the first week of strong tourney results was a better move

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 12:51:22


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 the_scotsman wrote:

Tsons and GK are seemingly coming out before orks.


Based on warcom articles no.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.



This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"


Spoiler:
Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


1) For some reason I don't believe you.
And even if you do quit I seriously doubt we've heard the last over-the-top complaint about SM sucking from you.....

2) You're getting bent out of shape over a squad of basic admech infantry armed with an 18" gun relying upon a strat.
If you can't handle basic guys with SMs? Then there's a problem for sure, but it doesn't lie with the SM Codex. (I'd start by looking at your dice. )

3) So how many AdMech do you actually face? (In my own area I count a potential of 4. And one of those I don't consider a challenge, let alone a threat)
What're the odds of game after game being ruined for you by this new super squad?
Besides, wasn't it just like 2-3 weeks ago that everyone would supposedly be running nothing but DE & ruining everyones day? And now 1 nerf & a paycheck later everyones doing AdMech? I doubt it.

As for refusing to play against the ADMech? Nah. I'm always = to the challenge.
When I refuse games it's based on the particular player, not what army they bring.


You can stuff the macho - "I enjoy a challenge" nonsense. This is a game that basically boils down to removing models from the table. If the opponent removes your models faster...and there is nothing you can really do about it. You lose. It is not fun or "challenging". It is what we call masochism.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Damn I was really over on how long xeno quitting would last. I had 27 minutes, he seems to have lasted almost 1/2 a day.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:

...You've got to admit that taking a little bit of extra time and actually nerfing the things in the codex that were actually a problem instead of just knee-jerking instantaneously after the first week of strong tourney results was a better move


...was it? They ended up doing exactly what all of us suggested they do having immediately seen the codex and got the first week of results.

It's not like this was some genius balancing patch that found issues nobody else had spotted and corrected them in unique and clever ways. They literally just did exactly what everyone was calling for them to do from essentially Day 1 when it became clear they had released a total monster.

I don't see why GW comes out of this with any sort of credit. They created the problem by releasing a book that the playtesters had clearly flagged as ridiculous and that the player base immediately also flagged as ridiculous, then took close to two months to fix it by doing exactly what everyone knew had to be done from the very start.

It's like driving your bus into a ditch, taking a week to get it out when it should have taken an hour, and then people praising you for it. It only happens because GW in the past was so incompetent that the bus would have sat in the ditch for a month instead of a week.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 16:01:30


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 the_scotsman wrote:


The codex went on preorder the last week in march, people actually got it mid-april. Month and a half to two months then, if it makes you feel better.

...You've got to admit that taking a little bit of extra time and actually nerfing the things in the codex that were actually a problem instead of just knee-jerking instantaneously after the first week of strong tourney results was a better move


How long does it take someone to notice that DT liquifire wrecks or infinite succubus, maybe tad too good, or that the raiders are very point efficient? Specially when the playtesters told that that, with the rules for stuff like dark lances etc being worse then they were in the finished book.

Saying they need time, sounds more like, they need time for people to buy the stock of stores and have stores put up orders for the missing model lines. Orders they can't just decide to not get.

But as I said, people here were happy. Good money out of selling wrecks.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Karol wrote:
Tell me they aren't one of the best armies in the game right now, even with the changes they got? Before they were mind breaking good. The guides on how to beat DE with non DE , were going something along the line of If you go first and they make mistakes, and the terrain is in your favour, if you manage to alfa strike them hard enough, then you have a 50/50 chance to not lose after turn 2. It was actually a funny thing to read or hear, specially when it was coming from people that playtested the army.


I had a the luck of playing a lot this week vs changed and unchanged DE, and the new Ad mecha, and it was not very fun to play. People drool over mars and how OP it is, but I got to play vs Lucius and it is probably just as good, and in some cases better then mars. A horde army with +2sv that can be stacked with other buffs vs armies with base weapons being AP- is the opposite of fun.


They're riding 67%-ish on average pre-nerf. I will definitely be interested to see their progress over the next several weeks. The nerfs should be sufficient to put them around 60%, which is still great, but not so great that you can't win.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 the_scotsman wrote:
Damn I was really over on how long xeno quitting would last. I had 27 minutes, he seems to have lasted almost 1/2 a day.

LOL - I said I quit the game - not discussing it. Nice try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

...You've got to admit that taking a little bit of extra time and actually nerfing the things in the codex that were actually a problem instead of just knee-jerking instantaneously after the first week of strong tourney results was a better move


...was it? They ended up doing exactly what all of us suggested they do having immediately seen the codex and got the first week of results.

It's not like this was some genius balancing patch that found issues nobody else had spotted and corrected them in unique and clever ways. They literally just did exactly what everyone was calling for them to do from essentially Day 1 when it became clear they had released a total monster.

I don't see why GW comes out of this with any sort of credit. They created the problem by releasing a book that the playtesters had clearly flagged as ridiculous and that the player base immediately also flagged as ridiculous, then took close to two months to fix it by doing exactly what everyone knew had to be done from the very start.

It's like driving your bus into a ditch, taking a week to get it out when it should have taken an hour, and then people praising you for it. It only happens because GW in the past was so incompetent that the bus would have sat in the ditch for a month instead of a week.

Bingo.

ADmech with be exactly the same.

Like wow...Chiken walkers are too cheap
Nothing should be stacking -2 ap onto a weapon. Ap-1 Max.
No ability to increase proc on 6's abilities to on 4's.
No +2 to save abilities just given to a unit FOR FREE.

Like come on man...this gak is obvious.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 18:12:03


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Daedalus81 wrote:


They're riding 67%-ish on average pre-nerf. I will definitely be interested to see their progress over the next several weeks. The nerfs should be sufficient to put them around 60%, which is still great, but not so great that you can't win.


And that is okey only because of being at +70% at some point. 67% is crazy high win rates. Specially vs armies that aren't even close to 55%. The chance of winning vs a 68-70% win rate army, with an army that has 35-40% win rate is close to zero.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.


As someone who has recently been on the receiving end of several such beatings, I have never been happier for my Drukhari friends.

If ever there was a faction that could use some time in the sun .... (no pun intended)

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.



This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"


[spoiler]Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.


1) For some reason I don't believe you.
And even if you do quit I seriously doubt we've heard the last over-the-top complaint about SM sucking from you.....

2) You're getting bent out of shape over a squad of basic admech infantry armed with an 18" gun relying upon a strat.
If you can't handle basic guys with SMs? Then there's a problem for sure, but it doesn't lie with the SM Codex. (I'd start by looking at your dice. )

3) So how many AdMech do you actually face? (In my own area I count a potential of 4. And one of those I don't consider a challenge, let alone a threat)
What're the odds of game after game being ruined for you by this new super squad?
Besides, wasn't it just like 2-3 weeks ago that everyone would supposedly be running nothing but DE & ruining everyones day? And now 1 nerf & a paycheck later everyones doing AdMech? I doubt it.

As for refusing to play against the ADMech? Nah. I'm always = to the challenge.
When I refuse games it's based on the particular player, not what army they bring.

[/spoiler]
You can stuff the macho - "I enjoy a challenge" nonsense. This is a game that basically boils down to removing models from the table. If the opponent removes your models faster...and there is nothing you can really do about it. You lose. It is not fun or "challenging". It is what we call masochism.

Blah blah blah.
You puss out of a game based on the other guys TOYS, boogeyman stats from tournies your not even in and theoreticals that might not even be involved in your specific games.

Me?
It's not macho. I simply play for fun. It doesn't matter to me whether or not the foe brings something weak, average, or the hardest meta list they can dream up, I'm going to have fun. The worst that can happen is Iose quickly & we can get another game of some sort in. But I know the armies Im playing quite well & know that I have options no matter what my foes bring.
Whether I win or lose on any given evening doesn't mean anything to me beyond the moment.
As long as I find the rules of the game acceptable (I do) & I have people I enjoy playing with (I do, because I don't play with those I dislike), I'm good to game.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: